Is the Trip Weapon Feature useless?


Advice

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Trip Weapon Feature Description:
Trip*: You can use a trip weapon to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped

Excerpt from Trip Weapon FAQ:
Note that there is an advantage to using a weapon with the trip special feature (a.k.a. a "trip weapon") when making a trip combat maneuver: if your trip attack fails by 10 or more, you can drop the trip weapon instead of being knocked prone.

Move Actions that may Provoke an Attack of Opportunity:

Drawing a Weapon: No;
Pick up an item: Yes;
Standing Up from Prone: Yes.

Prone Condition:
The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.


The rule is straight-forward:

Bobby is tripping his enemy with a Flail (a Trip weapon), he botches the attempt by 10 or more, and let's go of it to avoid falling prone. On his next turn, Bobby can draw his back-up Flail as a Move Action (that does not Provoke an Attack of Opportunity [AoO]) and try again.

Now, that's all fine and dandy when we're talking about generic Flails, but what if Bobby has "Sparky", a +4 Shock Flail? "Sparky" is Bobby's primary weapon, and his back-up is its inferior.

Both options provided by the Trip feature (retrieving "Sparky" after dropping it, or getting up from prone) lead to Bobby provoking an AoO.

Given the options, it's infinitely better to hang on to "Sparky" than to drop it. Why?

a) Any one other than Bobby can pick up "Sparky" if they are willing to Provoke an AoO for it. Dropping it doesn't necessarily mean Bobby's getting it back;
b) The bonuses from "Sparky" offset the attack penalties from being prone;
c) Bobby can use various abilities to offset the AC penalties from being prone, or completely avoid provoking an AoO when standing up.

Considering players would rather keep their weapon in hand, doesn't it make the Trip feature completely useless?


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You just pointed a situation where the trip property do something, bo useless is not exactly the right word, but yes, trip property is lackluster.


I don't see how it would be useless. You've pointed out a rather specific situation. being in a counter tripped situation where your primary weapon is strong enough that even with all the minus's you'd still get more positives than using your backup weapon.


Talcrion wrote:
I don't see how it would be useless. You've pointed out a rather specific situation. being in a counter tripped situation where your primary weapon is strong enough that even with all the minus's you'd still get more positives than using your backup weapon.

That's right.

Given to option to drop a killer weapon or fall prone, most players would choose to stay armed and fall prone.

Non-Trip weapons don't have that option. With a non-Trip weapon, you fall prone and stay armed if your trip attempt fails by 10 or more. Period.

If players with Trip weapons, who have the option of dropping the weapon choose to hang on to it and fall prone, what's the use of having the feature at all?

I guess what I'm saying is that Trip weapons should have a bonus similar to Disarm weapons, that boost the player's Trip attempt. Otherwise, I don't see why anyone would build a character to specialize in Trip weapons at all.

The Exchange

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Myself, I'd probably alter the 'trip' weapon quality to a simple "this quality prevents you from being knocked prone in return if you fail to meet the CMB by 10 or more." Still not hugely useful to PCs, who so rarely attempt a trip when there's a chance of failing that badly, but it means that lowly guards can come at mid-level PCs (or other skilled combatants) using flails and hope to knock them down without coming off as the Three Stooges.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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I actually think the trip weapon feature should give a +2 on trip attempts, just like disarm does, but that's not how it works.


What happens if you fail a trip using a flail and a locked gaunlet ?


If you can not let the wapon go you fall prone.

Sovereign Court

Use this to make your Trip weapon a bit less useless: (source: Ultimate Equipment)

CALLED
Price +1 bonus; Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —
A called weapon can be teleported to the wielder's hand as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, even if the weapon is in the possession of another creature. This ability has a maximum range of 100 feet, and effects that block teleportation prevent the return of a called weapon. A called weapon must be in a creature's possession for at least 24 hours for this ability to function.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost +1 bonus
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, teleport


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
I actually think the trip weapon feature should give a +2 on trip attempts...

+1

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

The problems inherent in the Called ability leap off the page!

How has it been in my posession for 24 hours, if it is currently in the posession of another creature within 100 feet?

What you say, I had my 24 hours, so it is attuned to me? What if the monster took it from me 25 hours ago? Can he call it right back? How many times? Is there a cool off period? Can it be attuned to more than one creature at a time. How long after I lose it can I still call it?

Can an ally and I "share" a called weapon using this loophole as a tactic?


Byronus, To answer your question.

Any situation in which case the bonus's you get from it Do NOT outweight the penalties, dropping a plus 2 weapon to draw a plus 1 weapon. or heck, dropping your offhand weapon then just changing to two handed and whacking him with that.

or how bout dropping one flail to draw your shortsword and stab him.

Really pretty much any situation in which your player doesn't walk around with 1 weapon massively more powerful then the other.

Granted I'm not saying it's a great ability or anything, but it certainly has it's uses.

I find it's main problem is the same with most tactical things in dnd.... I COULD dance around switch weapons and threaten his cat..... or I could just kill him.

Sczarni

Go with a whip and build up your CMB. A friend of mine has a two weapon rogue that uses a wip. The rogue has a bunch of feats that make the rogue an awesome set up guy. It has like a +30 or so CMB at lvl 11 and on a successful trip with the whip, any ally adjacent to the NPC tripped gets a free AoO for it being tripped. He can also attempt to remove bad guys from their weapons.

Sovereign Court

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shadowkras wrote:
What happens if you fail a trip using a flail and a locked gaunlet ?

A black hole opens up that leads right to the Pathfinder R&D room.


Shadowkras.... you have stumbled upon how they create trapezoids of annihilation... I'm afraid you now know too much


It is not really useless, but it is lacking. I think it should have given the +2 bonus, but Jason did not like it, IIRC.

Sovereign Court

tripping is tactically a very nasty thing... essentially you rob a creature of the ability to move AND you cost them a move action on their turn if the critter wants to get up AND you hit them at +4 to hit while they're prone AND everyone gets a free attack on them if they get up

Am I missing something? (that is a very nasty list if it's complete, so if more needs to be added, you see where I'm going with this...)

You can see how tripping someone can very quickly tip the scale of a battle...

So not getting a +2 with a trip weapon is a good balancing decision from the devs I think, considering that a trip specialist will already have the +4 from improved and greater trip, and also add any enhancement bonus from the trip weapon in question into that CMB check... Called property is a must though... (even with improved and greater trip, if you roll a 1 you will drop your trip weapon; and it would be extremely embarrassing for a tripper to become the trippee :) )


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Tripping also has a size limit, and you can still full attack while prone with any weapon, unlike being grapples which restricts weapon choice, and forces you to escape. It also has no size limit.

Trip could get a +2 and still not be on par with grappling.

Sovereign Court

I have a DM that throws Godzillas at us on a constant basis (homebrew) but the average PFS scenario or AP or Pathfinder Mod has a good balance creature size during encounters... the size limit on trip maneuvers should not affect you that much.

I have a Ftr 9 specialized in disarming, which is even more restrictive (lots of creatures don't use weapons) and I still find him fun to play (makes the encounters against weaponized targets even more preciousssssssssss :) )


I wish I could create a poll on these forums. :(

I guess what I would really like to know is: How many players who have made Tripping Build characters have had any use of Trip weapons?

:Byronus


It gives more tactical options in a bad situation.

If you fall prone, you will probably provoke an AoO when you stand up. If the PC is low on HP, dropping the weapon may be a good idea. You may also be facing enemies that do REALLY nasty things when you fall prone... or be facing one with Vicious Strike. The game is too varied to name every possible contingency any given player my face, but it does keep your options open.

It is not a great property, but there are situations when dropping your +4 uber weapon of worldslaying is a better option then falling prone, especially when you can draw your backup, the +2 almost uber weapon of continent slaying. Remember that if you have quickdraw (or you still have a move action that turn), you can grab your back up and full attack next round


If you arr devoted to tripping it likely takes a nat 1 to make you fall. I still think yhe property needs to do.more.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

In many sensible situations, trip weapons are likely not needed. A trip weapon that possibly has reach might be handy (not going to look it up right now to see if such a thing exists in game).

Another handy thing is to wield a non-bonus trip weapon in your off-hand to avoid tripping. It's silly, yet works by RAW. If you are almost tripped, drop the dead weight weapon in your off hand and you are alright.


I've always thought a weapon without the Trip property used to trip should be considered improvised for that purpose.

: shrugs :


Yes.

That is all.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

The problems inherent in the Called ability leap off the page!

How has it been in my posession for 24 hours, if it is currently in the posession of another creature within 100 feet?

What you say, I had my 24 hours, so it is attuned to me? What if the monster took it from me 25 hours ago? Can he call it right back? How many times? Is there a cool off period? Can it be attuned to more than one creature at a time. How long after I lose it can I still call it?

Can an ally and I "share" a called weapon using this loophole as a tactic?

Seems pretty straightforward to me. You have it in your possession for 24 hours and it's attuned to you. Someone else later has it in their possessing for 24 hours and it's not attuned to them, not you.


I read the trip property lets you add weapon bonuses to deposition or drag.


Put returning or calling on weapon and your fine although as a trip fighter I never fail by that much


Mojorat wrote:
I read the trip property lets you add weapon bonuses to deposition or drag.

I remember this. Good but not htat good taking into account how hard is reposition but well, is something.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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If the trip weapon is also a reach weapon (such as a guisarme), it's very useful.

You get to trip them before they can attack you, and, if they don't have reach, you can trip without having improved trip feat, since they can't use their AoO to hit you anyway.


JoelF847 wrote:

If the trip weapon is also a reach weapon (such as a guisarme), it's very useful.

You get to trip them before they can attack you, and, if they don't have reach, you can trip without having improved trip feat, since they can't use their AoO to hit you anyway.

Wich you can do without the trip property.

The Exchange

My trip fighter uses a horsechopper (trip, reach, X3 crit multiplier) and when self buffed has a +36 to trip CMB's before flanking. His entire career he has had only the chopper and a spiked gauntlet so never had to swap weapons. He made great use of a weapon cord so that he could drop the chopper and then recover it, but was lucky that no GM ever decided to sunder the weapon cord.

There was some discussion as to whether or not his pole fighter ability to shorten grip should work with a weapon cord, but I always was able to explain that if the cord was on the forward hand, the back hand could always be the one to choke up, and that satisfied every GM that questioned it (try it with a broom stick and a piece of rope).

As the character was a bit of a one trick pony, losing his weapon was not an option, and as he was set up to do damage and not take it, falling prone was not an option either.

Post level 7 or so he only failed by 10 or more on a roll of a 1, but the last thing the party wanted towards the end of his career was something picking up a +3 adamantine horsechopper and scoring a crit on one of us (in NOG's hands that was a 6D8 +87 don't want to imagine what a high str creature with power attack would do), so even on that 5% chance it wasn't an option to allow it to be dropped.

Not sure if that answers your question or not, but it worked splendidly for us. Tripping can be stupid effective in terms of battlefield control, but to do it right you give up almost everything else. The character has landed a flanked trip with a 20 and resulted in a 58, that made our VC who was the GM at the time cry, much fun for everyone else though and gained him the title of Demoralizer as our VC vowed to never GM for him again :)


Here's an idea I just came up with while reading this

A situation where dropping a prized weapon could be better than falling prone:

You make a Trip CM with a whip, flail, something with the Trip feature.
You roll a 1.
You drop your weapon (no matter what you do you roll a one for the first attack your turn ends, I would assume most GMs roll that way)
Next turn, (highly unlikely your opponent would provoke AoO to pick up a weapon you accidently dropped, itd be a different story if they disarmed you though) Instead of provoking an AoO to pick up your weapon, kick it away from you.

Here's why: If you succeed an acrobatics check, you can tumble to your weapon, pick it up and wait for your opponent to come at you, provoking an AoO from you!

So you turn a situation that would normally make you PROVOKE an AoO into a situation where you get to MAKE an AoO

EDIT: also I think it'd be safe to say most GMs would allow you to replace an AoO (in case they did decide to try to pick up your weapon) with an attack used to knock away the weapon. (Like 2 guys fighting over a pistol)


KestrelZ wrote:

Another handy thing is to wield a non-bonus trip weapon in your off-hand to avoid tripping. It's silly, yet works by RAW. If you are almost tripped, drop the dead weight weapon in your off hand and you are alright.

Where in the RAW does it say that you can avoid being tripped by dropping anything other than the weapon you were actually using for your trip attempt?


I would say trip weapons are useful because if you have another weapon, you can just drop it after you failed, draw that weapon and continue fighting.


SiuoL wrote:
I would say trip weapons are useful because if you have another weapon, you can just drop it after you failed, draw that weapon and continue fighting.

You need to fail by 10 for that to matter though. If you can fail by that much, you probably should be using a different tactic

Grand Lodge

A few points that were missed or undervalued:

Trip weapons can also be used to drag or reposition someone. Not terrific, but it gives a few more options.

You can always use a weapon cord on your trip weapon, so it only takes a move action to get it back in hand.

You can use a reach weapon to trip with, which also negates the have to drop or get tripped from the lineup against many enemies.

Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Trip) can be used to provide the 'missing' +2...

Note to Nog: It is possible to have a PC who is an effective trip build without having to give up everything else. Of course, it helps that someone mentioned under-sized weapons in a discussion about using two polearms in TWF. A small sized polearm still has reach, but is a one-handed weapon for a medium PC, albeit at a -2 to hit and CMB with it. You can still 2H it for bonus damage, or have a regular weapon in your other hand, to allow you to threaten adjacent, as well.

Sovereign Court

question: greater disarm lets you fling the defender's weapon 15 ft away.... if the defender is wearing a weapon cord, does it prevent such flinging?

i'm inclined to say no, as greater disarm gives the attacker enough skill to circumvent the puny cord (you go round and round and whizzzz... the weapon flies off the defender's hand upwards along with the trailing weapon cord...)


kinevon wrote:

A few points that were missed or undervalued:

Trip weapons can also be used to drag or reposition someone. Not terrific, but it gives a few more options.

Unless I've missed something in the relevant rules and FAQs, the trip weapon property has no impact here.

kinevon wrote:
You can use a reach weapon to trip with, which also negates the have to drop or get tripped from the lineup against many enemies.

The advantages of using a reach weapon to trip with come from having reach, not the trip property. And from what I see of the rules, the knocked prone/drop weapon effect doesn't require that the enemy threaten you, it's just whether or not you fail by 10 or more.

Shadow Lodge

kinevon wrote:

A few points that were missed or undervalued:

Trip weapons can also be used to drag or reposition someone. Not terrific, but it gives a few more options.

You can always use a weapon cord on your trip weapon, so it only takes a move action to get it back in hand.

You can use a reach weapon to trip with, which also negates the have to drop or get tripped from the lineup against many enemies.

Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Trip) can be used to provide the 'missing' +2...

Note to Nog: It is possible to have a PC who is an effective trip build without having to give up everything else. Of course, it helps that someone mentioned under-sized weapons in a discussion about using two polearms in TWF. A small sized polearm still has reach, but is a one-handed weapon for a medium PC, albeit at a -2 to hit and CMB with it. You can still 2H it for bonus damage, or have a regular weapon in your other hand, to allow you to threaten adjacent, as well.

Dont think the bolded part is true. When you fail by 10 or more you fall prone, you are not tripped by your opponent. You fail so badly you trip yourself.

At least thats the way i read it.

The Exchange

kinevon wrote:

Note to Nog: It is possible to have a PC who is an effective trip build without having to give up everything else. Of course, it helps that someone mentioned under-sized weapons in a discussion about using two polearms in TWF. A small sized polearm still has reach, but is a one-handed weapon for a medium PC, albeit at a -2 to hit and CMB with it. You can still 2H it for bonus damage, or have a regular weapon in your other hand, to allow you to threaten adjacent, as well.

An interesting concept, but it doesn't seem to offer anything over using shorten grip as a polearm fighter if you are still using it two handed. If you are dual wielding to allow threatening of adjacent squares with a second weapon you won't be able to get the bigger str bonus to your power attack. If you plan to mostly TWF you are going to have to invest in those feats to regularly connect, in which case you will be hard pressed to max out the trip feats and also pick up the juicy tidbits like fury's fall and furious focus.

Gauntlets of skilled maneuver do sound like something to pick up for tripping, want to add that and the dueling enchantment once I finish the EOTT, +44 to trip!

I believe at this point we are technically derailing though, so I am out.

Grand Lodge

Well, I would say it would go well with Weapon Cords, but Gunslingers ruined that.


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Nicos wrote:


I remember this. Good but not htat good taking into account how hard is reposition but well, is something.

Reposition is underrated.

Changar Qordath wrote:
Unless I've missed something in the relevant rules and FAQs, the trip weapon property has no impact here.

A weapon with the trip quality adds any weapon-based attack bonuses to drag and reposition, two combat maneuvers that usually do not benefit from weapon attack bonuses.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The Trip quality has essentially been useless ever since that FAQ came out, allowing all weapons to be used to trip. Prior to that, only trip weapons could be used to add bonuses to a trip attempt.

Liberty's Edge

The trip feature actually had value when it was applied literally: only the trip weapons could be used to trip (add enhancements, etc). Ever since the FAQ change, it watered it down.

EDIT: Ninja'd! Damn you, wizard! That's what I get for being distracted while I write a response. ;)


WRoy wrote:
Changar Qordath wrote:
Unless I've missed something in the relevant rules and FAQs, the trip weapon property has no impact here.
A weapon with the trip quality adds any weapon-based attack bonuses to drag and reposition, two combat maneuvers that usually do not benefit from weapon attack bonuses.

A source on that that would've been nice, instead of just repeating a claim I'd already stated I was aware of, but could find no supporting evidence for. Though it turns out, it's stated in a line from this blog post.

Sczarni

Take an exotic feat for this and save your golds on that silly enchantment.
Double chained Kama

"Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain."

The only weapon where the trip property is slightly less useless.

Now have a monk use it and flurry trip with reach range. :)

On the topic; yes, trip property could use a buff.


Has there ever been any ruling on tripping flyers?

In one nasty encounter tailored to the party, my trip/disarm maneuver master faced a flying barbarian with a great sword and a weapon cord.

The DM ruled that he was immune to being tripped (even though he was hovering only a few inches off the ground) and the wpn cord nullified the other half of my specialties but I always thought that was an overgenerous interpretation of flying.


Yes, flyers are inmune to trip.

Sczarni

Petrus222 wrote:
tailored to the party

That always mean that your GM hates you.

Solution, have other party members kill the boss. There is a reason you keep them around, right?

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