So, does Concealment negate all Precision Damage?


Rules Questions

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wraithstrike wrote:
Low-light. It would make no sense to only be moonlight. That was just put in the book to give the reader context. :)

Okay, but then this text doesn't really make sense:

Quote:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.

If they ignore dim light then there's no need to list a radius for dim light. They'd simply be able to see as well as if it were day. If an elf was carrying a torch in the dark he'd simply have normal vision for 80 feet, then no vision.


Kudaku wrote:
If an elf was carrying a torch he'd simply have normal vision for 80 feet, then no vision.

This is incorrect.

An elf with a torch sees normally out to 40 feet (double the normal light radius)). Then they see dim light out to 80 feet (double the dim light radius).


Edit: Did you just edit your numbers? I could have sworn the original post said 80/160 feet, not 40/80.

Either way I was trying to follow Wraithstrike's chain of logic, that lowlight vision users don't treat dim light as dim light. It seems odd that they'd write new language that explain how lowlight vision doubles dim light range when they instead treat dim light as normal.


Kudaku wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Low-light. It would make no sense to only be moonlight. That was just put in the book to give the reader context. :)

Okay, but then this text doesn't really make sense:

Quote:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
If they ignore dim light then there's no need to list a radius for dim light. They'd simply be able to see as well as if it were day. If an elf was carrying a torch he'd simply have normal vision for 80 feet, then no vision.

Yep, it makes no sense. The rules are contradictory.

Hence the need for an FAQ.


Kudaku wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Low-light. It would make no sense to only be moonlight. That was just put in the book to give the reader context. :)

Okay, but then this text doesn't really make sense:

Quote:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
If they ignore dim light then there's no need to list a radius for dim light. They'd simply be able to see as well as if it were day. If an elf was carrying a torch he'd simply have normal vision for 80 feet, then no vision.

I think the intent was to treat low-light conditions as if it was normal light so elves treat dim light and normal light as normal light.

OR

The devs had two different ideas of how to handle low-light, and they both made it into the book similar to when the book said you could counterspell SLA's, but also said you could not counterspell SLA's.

No matter what they intended it is not clear, and I doubt they really wanted moonlight to a special case. If someone creates an FAQ I will press the FAQ button.


I don't think there's need for another Lighting FAQ since the original one has a crap ton of FAQ clicks already. I will however send a PM to Mark with a link to this debate so that if the design team is not already aware of this particular conundrum, they can add it to that FAQ. :)


Kudaku wrote:
I don't think there's need for another Lighting FAQ since the original one has a crap ton of FAQ clicks already. I will however send a PM to Mark with a link to this debate so that if the design team is not already aware of this particular conundrum, they can add it to that FAQ. :)

FAQ's tend to only answer specific questions and I dont remember how the other question was worded, but sending a message to Mark and seeing if he will make a note to address this also is a good idea.

I would also suggest putting a message in his thread to be sure he sees it.

I will do it tomorrow if no public post has been made.


Post's up. :)

I have 58 minutes to edit it if there's anything I have missed or should have phrased differently. Suggestions are welcome. :)


Kudaku wrote:

Post's up. :)

I have 58 minutes to edit it if there's anything I have missed or should have phrased differently. Suggestions are welcome. :)

I would probably draw attention to "as well as they can during the day." with the low-light rules since that is the part that suggest "ignore concealment".

If they really can't see as well as during the day then it is misleading flavor text.


So just consider the moon putting out normal light to halfway to golarion.

:)


Okay, edited!

Silver Crusade

Kudaku wrote:

We ran into a question while discussing the concealment FAQ. Basically, how does the lowlight vision text in Special Abilities interact with the lowlight vision text in the lighting rules text of chapter 7 in the CRB?

Lowlight Vision, Special Abilities wrote:
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
CRB, Chapter 7 wrote:
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
CRB, Chapter 7 wrote:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.

Near as I can tell, there are a few possibilities here.

A: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as Dim Light, but double the range of light sources. The text in special abilities was copied from 3.5 erroneously.

B: Lowlight vision users treat all Dim Light as normal light. In this case it seems very odd to ask lowlight users to double the range of dim light when using light tools.

C: Lowlight vision users specifically treat moonlight as daylight, but otherwise follow the Dim Light rules. This doesn't require any changes, but seems oddly specific.

While I'd certainly be interested in your personal opinion, I also wanted to mention this since I know there's a big Lighting FAQ in the pipelines. It'd be nice to knock two FAQs off the list in one go!

I'm not sure I see the problem with (B)? Maybe you can help me see the puzzle. (Not denying that this would be an excellent candidate for clarification as part of the lighting fix.)

Seems to me LLV will treat all dim-light as normal-light. So two scenarios:

(1) Moonlit night. Everything is dimly lit. LLV treats as normal light, can see just fine as if daylight.

(2) Torch. Normal light 0-20, dim light 20-40, dark 40+. LLV treats normal and dim zones as normal, so normal 0-40. But *then* LLV also treats 40 ft of dark zone as dim light.

The apparent confusion re "why double" comes from difference between scenarios. In (1) there's no normal-light source. Nothing to double. In (2) there is, dim light treated as normal and then some of darkness treated as dim light for LLV.

Sound okay? Or have I missed something? Any way about it clarification of lighting rules will be great.

[phone post]

Silver Crusade

So you have an implied/hidden really-dimly-lit light level that appears as darkness for humans but dim light to those with LLV. Human-centric rules are what cause the problem.

Bright light / normal light / dim light / super-dim light / darkness / supernatural darkness.

See what I mean?

(Phone post)


The problem with B is basically the way lighting and low-light vision is written in the exploration and race chapters. If low-light vision means you treat all dim light as normal light it would be much faster, easier, and briefer to write "low-light vision means you treat dim light as normal light" in the lighting chapter. Instead we get:

Quote:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.

and

Quote:
Low-Light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Chapter 7.

If lowlight vision users always treat dim light as normal light there's no reason to double the effective radius for dim light.

Joe M. wrote:

So you have an implied/hidden really-dimly-lit light level that appears as darkness for humans but dim light to those with LLV. Human-centric rules are what cause the problem.

Bright light / normal light / dim light / super-dim light / darkness / supernatural darkness.

See what I mean?

(Phone post)

I think I do, but it seems very odd that there is another level of ambient lighting not listed in the lighting rules. We could have stumbled on another unwritten rule, I guess?


I don't see the confusion here.

Moonlight is dim light to a human.

Dim light to a human is usually normal light to... well anything but a human. (or short human)


BigNorseWolf wrote:

I don't see the confusion here.

Moonlight is dim light to a human.

Dim light to a human is usually normal light to... well anything but a human. (or short human)

Okay, an elf and a human are both holding a torch. The human has 20 foot normal light, and an additional 20 foot of dim light.

What does the elf have? 40 feet of normal light and an additional 40 feet of dim light? Or 80 feet of normal light? Or something else?


40 feet of normal light (to an elf) 40 feet of dim light (to an elf).


BigNorseWolf wrote:
40 feet of normal light 40 feet of dim light.

Okay. The elf fires an arrow at something 60 feet away, in the dim light. Does he have to roll for Concealment?


Kudaku wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
40 feet of normal light 40 feet of dim light.
Okay. The elf fires an arrow at something 60 feet away, in the dim light. Does he have to roll for Concealment?

yes


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
40 feet of normal light 40 feet of dim light.
Okay. The elf fires an arrow at something 60 feet away, in the dim light. Does he have to roll for Concealment?
yes

I think this is where the disconnect hits. You and me agree that the elf is still affected by dim light, but from what I can tell I believe (and I might well be mistaken since it's late and this is complicated) that Wraithstrike thinks the Moonlight clause in Low-Light vision under Special Abilities means that the elf would always treat dim light as normal light. So the elf would have normal vision for 80 feet out, then darkness.


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Kudaku wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
40 feet of normal light 40 feet of dim light.
Okay. The elf fires an arrow at something 60 feet away, in the dim light. Does he have to roll for Concealment?
yes
I think this is where the disconnect hits. You and me agree that the elf is still affected by dim light, but from what I can tell I believe (and I might well be mistaken since it's late and this is complicated) that Wraithstrike thinks the Moonlight clause in Low-Light vision under Special Abilities means that the elf would always treat dim light as normal light. So the elf would have normal vision for 80 feet out, then darkness.

The problem there is treating the moon as a light source that's on your head, rather than a lighting condition thats pervasive everywhere you look. Distance is rather irrelevant in that case.


Okay, so let's take distance out of the equation and assume that the ambient lighting is constant and unchanging: We have a cathedral, 100 feet wide and 300 feet long. The entire cathedral is dimly lit with candles.

The elf fires at someone inside the cathedral. Does he have to roll for concealment?

If yes: How is the dim lighting provided by candles different from the dim lighting provided by the moon?

If no: What's the point of noting that low-light vision can see further in dim light if they don't actually treat it as dim light?

Quick edit: These questions are not meant to belligerent or sarcastic. My various groups have run LLV as simply doubling light level ranges basically forever, I've never run into any pathfinder player who thinks LLV means you can ignore ambient dim light. That said, I'm completely open to the possibility that I'm mistaken. :)


Kudaku wrote:

Okay, so let's ignore distance and assume that the ambient lighting is constant and unchanging: We have a cathedral, 100 feet wide and 300 feet long. The entire cathedral is dimly lit with candles.

The elf fires at someone inside the cathedral. Does he have to roll for concealment?

No. Even though the rules don't cover looking into an area of light that you're not carrying, we all know that's how light in the dark actually works.

Quote:
If no: What's the point of noting that low-light vision can see further in dim light if they don't actually treat it as dim light?

) Because that rule is assuming the stereotypical adventurers traipsing through a dungeon with their own source of light.

If, as a cost cutting measure, the Aroden acolytes were to space the candles further apart to a human they would be 5 feet of dim light then 5 feet of darkness. To an elf they would be 5 feet of light and 5 feet of dim light.


Bright light
Light
Dim Light for a human
Dim light for an elf
Dark
Supernaturally dark (which is itself something thats PROBABLY intended but not explicitly stated)

Silver Crusade

Kudaku wrote:

Okay, so let's ignore distance and assume that the ambient lighting is constant and unchanging: We have a cathedral, 100 feet wide and 300 feet long. The entire cathedral is dimly lit with candles.

The elf fires at someone inside the cathedral. Does he have to roll for concealment?

If yes: How is the dim lighting provided by candles different from the dim lighting provided by the moon?

No, the elf does not have to roll for concealment. She treats what would be dim light for a human as normal light for her (because she has LLV).

Kudaku wrote:
So the elf would have normal vision for 80 feet out, then darkness.
Kudaku wrote:
If no: What's the point of noting that low-light vision can see further in dim light if they don't actually treat it as dim light?

Ah, I think I see what's happening here. You're concerned about this text:

Additional Rules wrote:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.

Here in <vision and light>, the scenario imagined is a torch illuminating a dark area. In which case:

00–20 ft. normal [for a human] / normal [for an elf]
20–40 ft. dim [for a human] / normal [for an elf]
40–80 ft. dark [for a human] / dim [for an elf]
80–xx ft. dark [for a human] / dark [for an elf]

This is actually exactly what the text says, too: the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light that a light source gives off is doubled for characters with LLV.

Your problem comes in because what a character treats as normal light is relative to that character's vision ability. It is correct to say that "a character with LLV treats all dim light as normal light"—the rule we're extracting—only if we add the specifier: "a character with LLV treats all dim light [for non-LLV creatures] as normal light."

But you're seeing "dim light [for an elf]" and thinking of it as "dim light [for a human]" and then thinking "well if a character with LLV treats all dim light as normal light, and if an elf with a torch sees 0–40 ft. as normal light and 40–80 ft. as dim light, shouldn't that turn into 0–80 ft. normal light and then darkness?" But once you put in the proper specifiers, that substitution becomes illegitimate. The rule is that a character with LLV treats dim light [for non-LLV creatures] as normal light, not that a character with LLV treats dim light [for a character with LLV] as normal light ... which would lead to the absurd result that characters with LLV only see as normal light or as darkness, that they never experience dimness.

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Bright light

Light
Dim Light for a human
Dim light for an elf
Dark
Supernaturally dark (which is itself something thats PROBABLY intended but not explicitly stated)

^ This.

Silver Crusade

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Kudaku wrote:
Quick edit: These questions are not meant to belligerent or sarcastic. My various groups have run LLV as simply doubling light level ranges basically forever, I've never run into any pathfinder player who thinks LLV means you can ignore ambient dim light. That said, I'm completely open to the possibility that I'm mistaken. :)

No worries! Not coming across as belligerent or sarcastic at all. (Hope I'm not either!) Light & darkness rules are a mess. Hoping the forthcoming clarification really cleans it all up.

:-)


Joe M. wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
Quick edit: These questions are not meant to belligerent or sarcastic. My various groups have run LLV as simply doubling light level ranges basically forever, I've never run into any pathfinder player who thinks LLV means you can ignore ambient dim light. That said, I'm completely open to the possibility that I'm mistaken. :)

No worries! Not coming across as belligerent or sarcastic at all. (Hope I'm not either!) Light & darkness rules are a mess. Hoping the forthcoming clarification really cleans it all up.

:-)

You're not! I find it hard to convey the right tone in written form (English is my second language) so there are times where I feel the need to throw on a disclaimer like that. :)

Okay, back on topic. From what I can tell elves (and other LLV creatures) treat ambient dim light as normal light, unless it's dim light gradually (or abruptly) changing into darkness. When normal light turns to dim light and eventually darkness, they treat the area humans would treat as dim light as normal light, and the area beyond that that humans would treat as darkness as dim light which gradually turns into complete darkness...?

Wow.

Okay, I needed you guys to hold my hand through every step to understand that process. There's no way in hell I'd intuit that based on the scattered rules text on Low-Light vision.

Just to be sure I got this, one more question. An elf is walking outside on a moonlit night, and can see perfectly well. He comes to an unlit and dark cave, and peers into the entrance. Is he able to make out anything inside?

Silver Crusade

Kudaku wrote:

Okay, back on topic. From what I can tell elves (and other LLV creatures) treat ambient dim light as normal light, unless it's dim light gradually (or abruptly) changing into darkness. When normal light turns to dim light and eventually darkness, they treat the area humans would treat as dim light as normal light, and the area beyond that that humans would treat as darkness as dim light which gradually turns into complete darkness...?

[...]

Just to be sure I got this, one more question.

An elf is walking outside on a moonlit night, and can see perfectly well. He comes to an unlit and dark cave, and peers into the entrance. Is he able to make out anything inside?

Yes. Outside = dimly lit for a human, normally lit for an elf. The cave entrance = dark for a human, dimly lit for an elf. Deeper in the cave = dark both for the human and for the elf.

So the elf would perceive the entrance as dimly lit, just as a human would if the human were standing outside of the cave looking in during daylight.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The elf could only see as far into the cave as would be dim light for a human.

(if you want to make this even more complicated start including characters with darkvision....)

For the characters with darkvision the dim moonlight would still be dim moonlight - but the dark cave they could see into (but only see in black & white) to the limit of their darkvision - probably best if they stand at the edge of the cave or better yet right at the point where it becomes dark...

Toss in magical light spells / darkness spells and you get the confusion which is Pathfinder rules for light & dark... like what counts as "sunlight" vs regular light or what is dark vs deeper dark.

Silver Crusade

Rycaut wrote:
The elf could only see as far into the cave as would be dim light for a human.

I'd say, as would be dim light for a human if the human were standing outside of the cave in daylight looking in.

Rycaut wrote:

(if you want to make this even more complicated start including characters with darkvision....)

For the characters with darkvision the dim moonlight would still be dim moonlight - but the dark cave they could see into (but only see in black & white) to the limit of their darkvision - probably best if they stand at the edge of the cave or better yet right at the point where it becomes dark...

Ugh, yeah. Darkvision adds some craziness. I would assume, though, that characters with darkvision should see just fine in dim light out to the range of their darkvision, but I'm not sure the rules provide for this as-written. Which is just weird. :-/

(Mark, we need that lighting solution!)


Quote:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
Quote:
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

From what I can tell Darkvision can basically be turned on and off at will without a cost. You can either use darkvision, which would allow you to penetrate darkness for 60 feet and then use the ambient lighting rules beyond that, or you use normal vision, which would allow you to make out colors but could potentially be obstructed by poor lighting or darkness.

A dwarf walking outside on a moonlit night (dim light) could then use darkvision to treat the first 60 feet as normal light, but the area beyond that would still be dim.

Then we have the fetchlings, who get both darkvision and Low-light vision. XD

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Dhampirs, too.

Silver Crusade

Kudaku wrote:
Quote:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

Ah, the bolded part fixes a lot of the weirdness. Thanks.


Sweet. Nice to have a definitive answer on this one.


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Doomed Hero wrote:

The low-light vision issue is simple.

If a torch casts normal light out to 20 feet, it also casts dim light (with concealment) from 20 feet to 40 feet.

Low-light vision just doubles the effective light ranges. In torchlight someone with low-light vision would see normally out to 40 feet and then from 40 to 80 feet in dim light.

If a moon casts normal light out to 150,000 miles (not far enough to reach Golarion), it also casts dim light (with concealment) from 150,000 miles to 300,000 miles (which is far enough to reach Golarion).

Low-light just doubles the effective light ranges. In moonlight someone with low-light vision would see normally whenever they were within 300,000 miles of the moon (which is anywhere on the planet), but if they got on a spaceship and flew further away they would see in dim light (with concealment) anywhere from 300,000 miles to 600,000 miles away.


So is my theory that characters with low light vision treating dim light as normal light the majority opinion?


That sentence about moonlight and normal vision seems pretty clear.


wraithstrike wrote:
So is my theory that characters with low light vision treating dim light as normal light the majority opinion?

I think the moonlight text is an error and that low light vision doubles the effect of light sources (and nothing else), and hence does nothing to moonlight. A single piece of text in the appendix is of dubious value considering that the exact mechanical repercussions of low light visions get run through in two different sections (that agree).

I could very well be wrong though. It would explain why animals that should be able to see in the dark only have low light vision.


Matthew Downie wrote:

If a moon casts normal light out to 150,000 miles (not far enough to reach Golarion), it also casts dim light (with concealment) from 150,000 miles to 300,000 miles (which is far enough to reach Golarion).

Low-light just doubles the effective light ranges. In moonlight someone with low-light vision would see normally whenever they were within 300,000 miles of the moon (which is anywhere on the planet), but if they got on a spaceship and flew further away they would see in dim light (with concealment) anywhere from 300,000 miles to 600,000 miles away.

Just as a fan of the game I want to say, that is FUNNY, that is WEIRD, and that WOULD fix all the problems with the low-light and illumination rules.


Snowblind wrote:

I think the moonlight text is an error and that low light vision doubles the effect of light sources (and nothing else), and hence does nothing to moonlight. A single piece of text in the appendix is of dubious value considering that the exact mechanical repercussions of low light visions get run through in two different sections (that agree).

I could very well be wrong though. It would explain why animals that should be able to see in the dark only have low light vision.

Yet, it's there. If you're hung up on "moonlight" somehow conveying a special exception, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. As long as there is an amount of light so as to not be dark then that's all that matters per that sentence. That's what it's actually saying regardless of the words used.


The ruling with the moon section is what lets animals see in the dark just fine.


I am probably going to end up running it as moonlight=normal light for LLV.

I still have serious doubts that it is RAI - glossary entries have had serious errors before - see immunity to fire=vulnerability to cold, which is literally a page turn away from low light vision. The reasoning that the radius from the moon's dim light doubles, thus putting the earth (or Golarion, whatever) within the normal light region is WAY more complex reasoning than what most rules get. I think that if the devs intended it to work this way, they would have probably put *something* somewhere else indicating as such. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if an FAQ came out saying that LLV does nothing in moonlight.

That said, I do like it more than the alternative from a simulationist perspective. Owls should be able to see in the dark.

Here is a question. Has anyone who has GMed an adventure path with significant night encounters ever seen low light vision mentioned as negating concealment at night? It seems like something that would be noted if the writers thought that it made a difference (not that writers haven't been wrong before either).


I have never seen LLV used as a significant tactical part of an AP encounter. That is the only way I see it being called out like that. I do think it is not clear enough to need an FAQ, even if my moonlight theory is right. Hopefully it is not too long since it is connected to another FAQ(this one). :)


In the D&D 3.5 PH, the Vision and Light text was extensively different from PF and even from Wizards own D&D 3.5 SRD. The line "Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day." is not present. The line is present in the D&D 3.5 SRD, tough.

Since this line is a stand alone paragraph at the end of the LLV description it leads me to think it was added last on purpose.

Here is the relevant text I found in the D&D 3.5 PH:

Races: Low-Light Vision: An [RACE] can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

Glossary: low-light vision: The ability to see in conditions of dim illumination as if the illumination were actually as bright as daylight.

Ignoring Concealment: Concealment isn’t always effective. For instance, a shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Remember also that characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance with the same light source than other characters. A torch, for example, lets an elf see clearly for 40 feet in all directions from the torch, while a human can see clearly for only 20 feet with the same light. (Fog, smoke, foliage, and other visual obstructions work normally against characters with darkvision or low-light vision.)

The only other mention of Moonlight is under Track, with the same penalties of Fog or Precipitation.

Here is the LLV description in the Rules Compendium book:

Low-Light Vision: Creatures that have low-light vision can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision allows a creature that can read to do so with even the tiniest source of light. Those that have low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as a human can during the day.
Superior low-light vision allows a creature to see even farther in conditions of shadowy illumination, usually four times as far as normal. (Dragons, I think)

It seems, the rules for Vision and Light in D&D 3.5 were very scattered indeed, with the lack of definite nomenclarure, like Shadowy Illumination, Dim Light and Dim Illumination all meaning the same thing. At some point, still in 3.5, they started to rewrite all of this, but I think they only finished it on PF, but it is clear that from the start they thought LLV allowed you to see clearly as "normal light" under the moonlight.

If we use Gamebalance, LLV does what it says it does, doubles the range of any illumination AND specially allows you to see under moonlight as normal light.

If we use Logic, LLV will basically upgrade to normal light any illumination where a normal human would see dim light. This is normally automatically with most sources of light, since most of them shed an area or normal light and then double that area of dim light, and the two most common exceptions are the candle and moonlight, which just shed dim light.

In order to enhance the believability of the game, I think allowing those with LLV to see better under moonlight and candle light is a little price to pay.

EDIT: Oh, and I think Non-Total Concealment preventing Sneak Attack is BS.

A Lv.20 Fighter, Rapier Specialist with a Doctor's degree standing behind a naked spleep walking old man in plain daylight is still unable to Sneak Attack him, because he doesn't have the Sneak Attack ability. What allows the Rogue to Sneak Attack is the fact that he has this ability. Having a 20% miss chance because of the dark alley illumination is penalty enough.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:

The low-light vision issue is simple.

If a torch casts normal light out to 20 feet, it also casts dim light (with concealment) from 20 feet to 40 feet.

Low-light vision just doubles the effective light ranges. In torchlight someone with low-light vision would see normally out to 40 feet and then from 40 to 80 feet in dim light.

If a moon casts normal light out to 150,000 miles (not far enough to reach Golarion), it also casts dim light (with concealment) from 150,000 miles to 300,000 miles (which is far enough to reach Golarion).

Low-light just doubles the effective light ranges. In moonlight someone with low-light vision would see normally whenever they were within 300,000 miles of the moon (which is anywhere on the planet), but if they got on a spaceship and flew further away they would see in dim light (with concealment) anywhere from 300,000 miles to 600,000 miles away.

Except the moon isn't really the source of the light. It is merely reflecting the light of the sun. So the distance from the source should be calculated by adding the distance between the sun and the moon to the distance from the moon to Golarion. Now we need to compensate for the fact that the moon isn't a perfect reflector and the fact that the intensity of the light varies inversely as the square of the distance...

;)


DM Beckett wrote:

As long as there is any light source, (that is to say it's anywhere between Bright Light and Dim Light conditions, characters with Low-Light Vision and Darkvision can both see as if in Normal Light conditions, at least.

That's everyone except Haflings and Humans in the CRB.

For humans and halflings, a nice option for getting low-light vision is the Blood of Dragons Trait (Bloodline Trait from Ultimate Campaign).

Edit: It looks like Gillmen are the only other race in the ARG without either low-light vision or darkvision.

Liberty's Edge

Gisher wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:

As long as there is any light source, (that is to say it's anywhere between Bright Light and Dim Light conditions, characters with Low-Light Vision and Darkvision can both see as if in Normal Light conditions, at least.

That's everyone except Haflings and Humans in the CRB.

For humans and halflings, a nice option for getting low-light vision is the Blood of Dragons Trait (Bloodline Trait from Ultimate Campaign).

Edit: It looks like Gillmen are the only other race in the ARG without either low-light vision or darkvision.

You mean human of the sea?


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wraithstrike wrote:
So is my theory that characters with low light vision treating dim light as normal light the majority opinion?

I use that as the definition of low-light vision, frankly I would keep ruling that way even if that were not the actual rule.


wraithstrike wrote:
So is my theory that characters with low light vision treating dim light as normal light the majority opinion?

Not here. I'm in the camp that LLV doubles the range you can see using most light sources, but under a moonlit sky you can see as well as if it were daylight. It doesn't seem that complicated to me.

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