So, does Concealment negate all Precision Damage?


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:
I don't think you're getting the point I'm trying to convey, so I'll drop it.

Perhaps not. I really have no idea what you're trying to do.

It seems like you're actively trying to imply that I shouldn't dare to post a thread like this or try and get responses...but that's very possibly just the internet making communication unclear and tone impossible to convey, and I'm perfectly willing to believe your intent is something else...I just can't tell what for the life of me.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
You state your position as right and then note that 'some disagree' without stating their position, just one of their arguments against yours...and this in a thread with about equal numbers debating both sides. That's one of the most biased summaries I've ever seen in my life.

Please, enlighten me (with links, preferably), what was my position again?

Because, going through the entire thread, I can't find anywhere where I've posted what side I was on.

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:

Please, enlighten me (with links, preferably), what was my position again?

Because, going through the entire thread, I can't find anywhere where I've posted what side I was on.

You're quite right, you haven't. My apologies. And I sincerely mean this, I hate misrepresenting people.

Allow me to restate my comment:

You state one position as right and then note that 'some disagree' without stating their position, just one of their arguments against the first...and this in a thread with about equal numbers debating both sides. That's one of the most biased summaries I've ever seen in my life.

There. Now, perhaps you'll understand why I made the unfortunate assumption in question regarding your position...

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think we can probably both agree that "TL;DR" summaries are not as preferable as reading the entire thread.

Inevitably, something will get left out.

But I had to state one of the two arguments first, and show the most common dissenting opinion against it. If I had done it backwards, then someone else would take issue with how I presented it. I figured starting out with an explanation of the feat as point one was sufficient to set up the argument, and then moved on to explaining those in dissent.

There are over a hundred posts in this thread, and not all of them have been point 1 vs point 2, but for a quick summary that's the shortest synopsis one can give.

Liberty's Edge

Eh...maybe I overreacted. No scratch that, I overreacted. Sorry.

But...there not being a 'Normal' line in the Shadow Strike feat is not in any way the basis of my argument. It's a footnote at best. I mean, yeah, a line like that would give a definitive answer one way or the other...but there not being one isn't why I think Precise strike works on concealed targets. That has much more to do with the wording on basically everything featuring precision damage except Shadow Strike.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Deadmanwalking wrote:
5-6% of players on a regular, possibly per session, basis. That's...quite a lot of people, there.

Let us assume your number is correct. Factor in the equation of how many groups are confused by this. Because I know people playing Swashbuckler who are not having this debate.

So you need to 1) be effected by the ability and 2) have an issue getting your group to come to a conclusion.

I don't think there are that many groups having trouble coming to a conclusion.

Liberty's Edge

James Risner wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
5-6% of players on a regular, possibly per session, basis. That's...quite a lot of people, there.
Let us assume your number is correct. Factor in the equation of how many groups are confused by this. Because I know people playing Swashbuckler who are not having this debate.

The number's going to jump precipitously when the ACG actually comes out, bear in mind.

James Risner wrote:
So you need to 1) be effected by the ability and 2) have an issue getting your group to come to a conclusion.

Except those numbers will be split down the middle. And a fair number will be PFS games...and thus players will never know which version they're dealing with from game to game, which has to suck.

And besides, if Swashbuckler really isn't effected by concealment, all those people who play in games where a GM says they do are getting a bit screwed. And if it works the other way, well, they're likely to get screwed at some point in the future when the errata does come out (this one seems inevitable...though it might take a while, depending).

James Risner wrote:
I don't think there are that many groups having trouble coming to a conclusion.

Well, there's all of PFS, for a start. Plus a large number of individual groups, I suspect.


James Risner wrote:


Let us assume your number is correct. Factor in the equation of how many groups are confused by this. Because I know people playing Swashbuckler who are not having this debate.

If I may ask, how are those groups ruling it?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Zathyr wrote:
James Risner wrote:
If I may ask, how are those groups ruling it?

Every case has been everyone without blinking assumes precision damage gets negated by concealment.

Until this thread, I had no idea this was in debate by some.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
Zathyr wrote:
James Risner wrote:
If I may ask, how are those groups ruling it?

Every case has been everyone without blinking assumes precision damage gets negated by concealment.

Until this thread, I had no idea this was in debate by some.

Same.

My gaming groups will continue to run it as such.

Liberty's Edge

My experience is, amusingly, precisely the opposite, although it's not with a large number of groups.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I have actually had to cut down on the number of groups I game with.

I am down to two a week, with the occasional PFS game in between.

Liberty's Edge

See, I'm in three games (soon to be four...briefly), but the number of players in each overlaps so much that I pretty much just think of it all as one group.

So maybe we're just defining things differently, there.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

My overlap is actually quite small. None for PFS.

I understand what you mean though.

Shadow Lodge

Just curious if there was an actual answer yet? Glanced through the last two pages, and didn't notice one. <Yes, I already hit FAQ>

Liberty's Edge

DM Beckett wrote:
Just curious if there was an actual answer yet? Glanced through the last two pages, and didn't notice one. <Yes, I already hit FAQ>

Nope. And as others have noted...it might be a while.

Liberty's Edge

So...this thread got linked over here (Thanks Kudaku! And go magnuskn for keeping up the good fight...so to speak). Hopefully that'll get a response at some point. More people going there and commenting on this might not be a good idea, though...hard to tell.

Please feel free to keep FAQing here, though.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Just curious if there was an actual answer yet? Glanced through the last two pages, and didn't notice one. <Yes, I already hit FAQ>
Nope. And as others have noted...it might be a while.

Agree. I Think they wait at least until the ACG is out.

BTW, I have hit the FAQ although I have my own opinion on the subject.

Liberty's Edge

So...the ACG is out, and GenCon is over. A FAQ on this topic actually seems quite possible (if perhaps not likely) in the near future!

FAQ the first post and we'll hopefully find out. :)

Liberty's Edge

*whistles innocently while bumping post*

Sovereign Court

Seeing as Mark Seifter has been on the case for his "FAQ Fridays", it seems appropriate to bring this back to the top for more discussion and FAQ hits.

Plus, this question just keeps coming up anyways, so we may as well add to a discussion that's already got some meat to it.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, I was really hoping to have an answer by now. Not expecting, but hoping. :)

Let's keep hope alive for it happening in the future!

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

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FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Concealment and Precision Damage: Does concealment (the 20% kind, not total concealment) negate all kinds of precision damage? There is some confusion from the multiple places where precision damage appears.

Yes, in general concealment does negate all kinds of precision damage, unless you have a special ability that particularly says otherwise like the Shadow Strike feat or the Unchained rogue’s sneak attack.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Concealment and Precision Damage: Does concealment (the 20% kind, not total concealment) negate all kinds of precision damage? There is some confusion from the multiple places where precision damage appears.

Yes, in general concealment does negate all kinds of precision damage, unless you have a special ability that particularly says otherwise like the Shadow Strike feat or the Unchained rogue’s sneak attack.

Oh, there's a clever preview. :-)


Unchained rogue's SA? Wow...well there goes the need for Shadow Strike feat...unless you're a ninja.


Barachiel Shina wrote:
Unchained rogue's SA? Wow...well there goes the need for Shadow Strike feat...unless you're a ninja.

It's still useful for investigators too.

Sovereign Court

Barachiel Shina wrote:
Unchained rogue's SA? Wow...well there goes the need for Shadow Strike feat...unless you're a ninja.

Or Swashbuckler.


Joe M. wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Concealment and Precision Damage: Does concealment (the 20% kind, not total concealment) negate all kinds of precision damage? There is some confusion from the multiple places where precision damage appears.

Yes, in general concealment does negate all kinds of precision damage, unless you have a special ability that particularly says otherwise like the Shadow Strike feat or the Unchained rogue’s sneak attack.
Oh, there's a clever preview. :-)

I'm hopeful the Unchained rogue brings some unique flavor to the table. That it isn't a new version of a slayer/glass canon--but makes use of stealth, sniping, and so on.

It is a big concern. Making note of this ruling, though.

Liberty's Edge

Stompy Rex wrote:
Joe M. wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Concealment and Precision Damage: Does concealment (the 20% kind, not total concealment) negate all kinds of precision damage? There is some confusion from the multiple places where precision damage appears.

Yes, in general concealment does negate all kinds of precision damage, unless you have a special ability that particularly says otherwise like the Shadow Strike feat or the Unchained rogue’s sneak attack.
Oh, there's a clever preview. :-)

I'm hopeful the Unchained rogue brings some unique flavor to the table. That it isn't a new version of a slayer/glass canon--but makes use of stealth, sniping, and so on.

It is a big concern. Making note of this ruling, though.

I'm just hoping that they give the rogue proficiency in the ballista.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Friend of the Dork wrote:
Personally I never liked that concealement negates sneak attack. Luring someone into a dark alleyway to sneak attack them is a trope that becomes impossible.

The target of such an attack is not concealed from the attacker. So dark alley sneak attacks are quite safe.


LazarX wrote:
The target of such an attack is not concealed from the attacker. So dark alley sneak attacks are quite safe.

Incorrect. Dim light grants 20% concealment, which foils sneak attack unless the attacker has darkvision. Paradoxically most rogues are less of a threat if you fight them in a dark alleyway rather than in a brightly lit park.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kudaku wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Friend of the Dork wrote:
Personally I never liked that concealement negates sneak attack. Luring someone into a dark alleyway to sneak attack them is a trope that becomes impossible.
The target of such an attack is not concealed from the attacker. So dark alley sneak attacks are quite safe.
Incorrect. Dim light grants 20% concealment, which foils sneak attack unless the attacker has darkvision. Paradoxically most rogues are less of a threat if you fight them in a dark alleyway rather than in a brightly lit park.

Alleyways are generally shadowed, not fully dark, despite the name. The attacker hides in the shadowed parts and then springs from hiding to attack his target. You people are so bloody pedantic.


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You're free to play your own game any way you want. That said, spreading misinformation is a bad thing - especially on the board that's concerned with trying to apply the rules correctly. Barring darkvision or the Shadow Strike feat, a rogue will not be able to use sneak attack in a dark alleyway, which was the example used.

Finally, you should really consider editing away the final sentence of that post before one of the moderators read it. In my experience any sentence that starts with "you people" is usually a sentence better left unsaid.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kudaku wrote:

You're free to play your own game any way you want. That said, spreading misinformation is a bad thing - especially on the board that's concerned with trying to apply the rules correctly. Barring darkvision or the Shadow Strike feat, a rogue will not be able to use sneak attack in a dark alleyway, which was the example used.

Finally, you should really consider editing away the final sentence of that post before one of the moderators read it. In my experience any sentence that starts with "you people" is usually a sentence better left unsaid.

What most people consider "dark alleyways" are generally just shadowy places, where normal humans can operate, not spaces filled with Darkness effects. There is a distinction.

Liberty's Edge

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@Kudaku Sometimes the truth needs to be said.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:

...

What most people consider "dark alleyways" are generally just shadowy places, where normal humans can operate, not spaces filled with Darkness effects. There is a distinction.

Dim light isn't a pitch black room or a deeper darkness effect.

Dim light is at night with a moon in a sky. See here

Most people can see well enough in bright moonlight to shank someone in the kidneys. Not rogues apparently.

When I (as many would I imagine) see "dark alley", I think of alleys at night that are not lit by street light. You would be able to see well enough in there (even just from the diffuse reflecion of light from the street) but it would qualify as dim lighting. Thus rogues cannot sneak attack in what most people think of as a dark alley.

Can I suggest not being so [EXPLETIVE] pedantic with the terms people use?


The inability to read correctly and then reply on a high horse based in that misread is characteristic of certain posters. Sometimes is better to just let it be.

Now, the FAQ hurt swashbucklers hard, and if it not were from the dex to damage feat they would be very useless in a "dark alley" situation.


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This is the rules forum. Isn't being pedantic with defined game terms the whole point?


Bob Bob Bob wrote:
This is the rules forum. Isn't being pedantic with defined game terms the whole point?

If the term under discussion was a game term I would agree.

It isn't. The issue at hand, although referencing the rules, is not in and of itself a rules issue.

Besides, the pedantry isn't the real sticking point. The complete misrepresentation of the position of others followed by a holier-than-thou attitude is.

Shadow Lodge

Snowblind wrote:
LazarX wrote:

...

What most people consider "dark alleyways" are generally just shadowy places, where normal humans can operate, not spaces filled with Darkness effects. There is a distinction.

Dim light isn't a pitch black room or a deeper darkness effect.

Dim light is at night with a moon in a sky. See here

Most people can see well enough in bright moonlight to shank someone in the kidneys. Not rogues apparently.

Here is the thing, Rogues need to be able to see their target extremely well to be to first find that exact weak spot they are aiming for and then to be able to land a blow. It makes perfect sense that if you don't have a good view, you just can't land a well placed surgical blow. Lucky hits, (crits) are still possible.

And it's not like setting up an ambush, (hiding in a dark alley), getting surprise, and also being aware and able to set up for a combat has no mechanical advantages, even without sneak attack.

And even simple Low-Light Vision is enough for them to be able to see just fine in a Dimly lit "dark alleyway".

Low-Light Vision wrote:

Low-Light Vision

Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

As long as there is any light source, (that is to say it's anywhere between Bright Light and Dim Light conditions, characters with Low-Light Vision and Darkvision can both see as if in Normal Light conditions, at least.

That's everyone except Haflings and Humans in the CRB.


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Human rogues, they rob you in the middle of the day because they suck at night.


DM Beckett wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
LazarX wrote:

...

What most people consider "dark alleyways" are generally just shadowy places, where normal humans can operate, not spaces filled with Darkness effects. There is a distinction.

Dim light isn't a pitch black room or a deeper darkness effect.

Dim light is at night with a moon in a sky. See here

Most people can see well enough in bright moonlight to shank someone in the kidneys. Not rogues apparently.

Here is the thing, Rogues need to be able to see their target extremely well to be to first find that exact weak spot they are aiming for and then to be able to land a blow. It makes perfect sense that if you don't have a good view, you just can't land a well placed surgical blow. Lucky hits, (crits) are still possible.

And it's not like setting up an ambush, (hiding in a dark alley), getting surprise, and also being aware and able to set up for a combat has no mechanical advantages, even without sneak attack.

And even simple Low-Light Vision is enough for them to be able to see just fine in a Dimly lit "dark alleyway".

Low-Light Vision wrote:

Low-Light Vision

Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

As long as there is any light source, (that is to say it's anywhere between Bright Light and Dim Light conditions, characters with Low-Light Vision and Darkvision can both see as if in Normal Light conditions, at least.

That's everyone except Haflings and Humans in the CRB.

That's...wierd. The actual rules on lighting contradict the description of low light vision. The lighting rules explicitly explain how low-light vision is handled mechanically, and they say nothing about dim light EVER being treated as normal light for the purposes of concealment. The Universal Monster Rules agree with the lighting rules.

Anyway, this is kind of mute, because the complaint is that the concealment from dim lighting screws over the stereotypical twf rogue massively on anything vaguely CR appropriate, when the standard tropes would suggest that the rogue should find darkness to be a huge boon. Using a non-human race doesn't really fix this issue - all rogues need night vision to shank someone in the kidneys at night now...yay? And yes, low light vision is night vision. Owls can see very well in the dark but only have low-light vision by Pathfinder rules.

EDIT: The concealment rules don't mention it either, despite explaining how low-light vision ignores some concealment


That is interesting... So basically moonlit nights do not qualify as dim light for low-light vision? If low-light vision is intended always to treat dim light as normal light there's a lot of text in the lighting rules that make no sense.


Low-light vision has the basic rules in the "lighting" section, and it says they see as well in moon-light as they do in the day, but it does not specifically mention concealment. I guess an FAQ is needed.


wraithstrike wrote:
Low-light vision has the basic rules in the "lighting" section, and it says they see as well in moon-light as they do in the day, but it does not specifically mention concealment. I guess an FAQ is needed.

Just to be clear, does your CRB say that low-light vision can see in moonlight in the lighting section? My CRB notes the moonlight text in the blurb on Low-light vision under Special Abilities, but it does not say anything like that in chapter 7 under Vision and Light.

I'm asking because I had a theory that the Lowlight text under Special Abilities was copy/pasted from the 3.5 player's book, which had similar text regarding moonlight for low-light vision but didn't define Shadowy Illumination. I don't have my 3.5 PHB on hand though, so I can't compare at the moment.

Edit: I think that's where the problem was created. The Core Rulebook added more lighting stages (from bright light/shadowy illumination/darkness to bright light/light/dim light/darkness/supernatural darkness) and defined them, describing Dim Light as "moonlit or starlit night". Then they essentially copy/pasted the Lowlight special ability text from 3.5, which noted that lowlight vision treats moonlight as bright light.


I don't even own a CRB. I just use the PRD, which is the most updated rules version, but the PRD agrees with your book. The "lighting" section does not mention low-light possibly ignoring concealment. It only says you can see twice as far as in lower light conditions than other creatures.

I think the intent is to ignore concealment(20%) if it is due to low light conditions, but I think it should be specifically stated.


Kudaku wrote:
Just to be clear, does your CRB say that low-light vision can see in moonlight in the lighting section? My CRB notes the moonlight text in the blurb on Low-light vision under Special Abilities, but it does not say anything like that in chapter 7 under Vision and Light.

I checked my CRB pdf (5th printing)

Vision and Light - p172 to p173
Ignoring concealment - p197
The problematic moonlight blurb - p564
All the same as the d20pfsrd text.

I also have to laugh at the fact that literally a few hours after a long overdue FAQ we want another one on a tangentially related topic in the same thread.


wraithstrike wrote:

I don't even own a CRB. I just use the PRD, which is the most updated rules version, but the PRD agrees with your book. The "lighting" section does not mention low-light possibly ignoring concealment. It only says you can see twice as far as in lower light conditions than other creatures.

I think the intent is to ignore concealment(20%) if it is due to low light conditions, but I think it should be specifically stated.

Do you mean that low-light vision ignores concealment in all dim light, or that low-light vision ignores concealment when the dim light is specifically moonlight?

If it's the former I disagree, if it's the latter I think you're right but I'm not sure if it's an intended effect or they just forgot to clean up the language when they borrowed it from 3.5.

Snowblind wrote:
I also have to laugh at the fact that literally a few hours after a long overdue FAQ we want another one on a tangentially related topic in the same thread.

I believe the light/darkness FAQ is in the top 3 most frequently asked questions at the moment, but it's taking a little while since it'll most likely need a more comprehensive reply than most yes/no FAQs.


Kudaku wrote:

Do you mean that low-light vision ignores concealment in all dim light, or that low-light vision ignores concealment when the dim light is specifically moonlight?

If it's the former I disagree, if it's the latter I think you're right but I'm not sure if it's an intended effect or they just forgot to clean up the language when they borrowed it from 3.5.

Low-light. It would make no sense to only be moonlight. That was just put in the book to give the reader context. :)


The low-light vision issue is simple.

If a torch casts normal light out to 20 feet, it also casts dim light (with concealment) from 20 feet to 40 feet.

Low-light vision just doubles the effective light ranges. In torchlight someone will low-light vision would see normally out to 40 feet and then from 40 to 80 feet in dim light.

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