What's better Musket Master or Pistolero and why?


Advice

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder all books allowed. What's better Musket Master or Pistolero and why? also any race better than human for either?


Better how? I presume you're attempting to get the most damage?


Pistolero is the best way to make a kaiju fall prone.

Liberty's Edge

RJGrady wrote:
Pistolero is the best way to make a kaiju fall prone.

Not necessarily most damage but most useful.

Liberty's Edge

Pistoleros are capable of ludicrously higher damage in total...but have to be within 20 feet or so to do it, putting them at a lot more risk.

So...it depends on what you're looking for, really, a conventional ranged character (if one who's a bit unconventional in weapon choice), or someone who shoots dragons in the face from point-blank range.

Their utility out of combat is about equal, though really optimizing a Pistolero is quite a bit more Feat intensive.


If Trench Fighter archetype is allowed, then that is better than either. Unless there are specific deeds that you want to use, that is.

Trench Fighter won't get the fast musket ability, so uses pistols. What it gets are Higher attack bonus from weapon training and lots more feats so it can afford to get the required feats for ranged combat earlier and have enough left over to be effective at other things, like melee or non-combat feats. Or to multi class into something else. Inquisitor works well.

In my not very humble opinion, that is.

Liberty's Edge

Gilarius wrote:

If Trench Fighter archetype is allowed, then that is better than either. Unless there are specific deeds that you want to use, that is.

Trench Fighter won't get the fast musket ability, so uses pistols. What it gets are Higher attack bonus from weapon training and lots more feats so it can afford to get the required feats for ranged combat earlier and have enough left over to be effective at other things, like melee or non-combat feats. Or to multi class into something else. Inquisitor works well.

In my not very humble opinion, that is.

The lack of Proficiency and the Quick Clear Deed both really hurt, though. As does the lack of Gunsmithing. Sure, you can buy those with Feats, but there goes some of that Feat advantage. And the +3d6 or more damage per shot from Pistolero really helps make them better damage-wise at 11th level plus, making Trench Fighter's advantages look a bit anemic in comparison (given the three required Feats, they only wind up three Feats ahead by 20th level...okay, 4 given the necessity of Signature Deed).

The lack of skills really doesn't help either...


MM is better in general but pistoleros can be built which in the right situation are far superior especially at higher levels, especially with advanced firearms. If you are playing a gunslinger from low level on then go musket master, it is far less aggravating to play.


(cont) races

1)if going for a pistolero then the best choice is a grippi or tiefling for the tail/tongue dual weilding
2) the dwarf racial favored class bonus can actually work out quite well but gets somewhat meaningless at higher levels, an excellent choice for characters unlikely to get to level 12+ or campaigns which allow retraining of favor class bonuses
3)a goblin can do some really strange things as a gunslinger, with +4 DEX to start combine burn, burn, burn and goblin gunslinger with a pair of dragonpistols firing dragonsbreath cartidges for a pocket fireball. not very versitile but made a really fun NPC.
4)don't completely discount the ifrit & ratfolk, the initiative favor class bonus can be really useful, depends on what you want but it is a viable option to make sure a gunslinger goes from rarely losing initiative to never losing initiative.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Gilarius wrote:

If Trench Fighter archetype is allowed, then that is better than either. Unless there are specific deeds that you want to use, that is.

Trench Fighter won't get the fast musket ability, so uses pistols. What it gets are Higher attack bonus from weapon training and lots more feats so it can afford to get the required feats for ranged combat earlier and have enough left over to be effective at other things, like melee or non-combat feats. Or to multi class into something else. Inquisitor works well.

In my not very humble opinion, that is.

The lack of Proficiency and the Quick Clear Deed both really hurt, though. As does the lack of Gunsmithing. Sure, you can buy those with Feats, but there goes some of that Feat advantage. And the +3d6 or more damage per shot from Pistolero really helps make them better damage-wise at 11th level plus, making Trench Fighter's advantages look a bit anemic in comparison (given the three required Feats, they only wind up three Feats ahead by 20th level...okay, 4 given the necessity of Signature Deed).

The lack of skills really doesn't help either...

I made a level-by-level comparison between a pistolero and a trench fighter, both going for two-weapon fighting (using quickdraw for more pistols rather than cheesy re-loading shenanigans), from 1st level up to 10th. The trench fighter came out ahead for almost every level on accuracy, damage, better stats (didn't need grit points so had higher con or str), and versatility from having a couple of spare feats (even after having to buy amateur gunslinger for quick clear, etc). I didn't compare skill points, so that's a fair complaint.

The bonus damage from using grit for a pistolero only exceeds the trench fighter's basic damage if you don't face several encounters per adventuring day.

I was expecting the pistolero to be better, but it wasn't. The big rider on that was the deeds - if you really wanted a particular one (eg knockdown), then gunslinger was much better.

edit: I believe this is why Trench Fighter is only supposed to be usable if playing in a game with guns being common and/or with advanced firearms.


cnetarian wrote:

(cont) races

1)if going for a pistolero then the best choice is a grippi or tiefling for the tail/tongue dual weilding
2) the dwarf racial favored class bonus can actually work out quite well but gets somewhat meaningless at higher levels, an excellent choice for characters unlikely to get to level 12+ or campaigns which allow retraining of favor class bonuses
3)a goblin can do some really strange things as a gunslinger, with +4 DEX to start combine burn, burn, burn and goblin gunslinger with a pair of dragonpistols firing dragonsbreath cartidges for a pocket fireball. not very versitile but made a really fun NPC.
4)don't completely discount the ifrit & ratfolk, the initiative favor class bonus can be really useful, depends on what you want but it is a viable option to make sure a gunslinger goes from rarely losing initiative to never losing initiative.

I second the goblin. It makes an awesome gunfighter. Small size adds even more to its dex bonus, and I think it still moves 30 feet per round.


Gilarius wrote:

I made a level-by-level comparison between a pistolero and a trench fighter, both going for two-weapon fighting (using quickdraw for more pistols rather than cheesy re-loading shenanigans), from 1st level up to 10th. The trench fighter came out ahead for almost every level on accuracy, damage, better stats (didn't need grit points so had higher con or str), and versatility from having a couple of spare feats (even after having to buy amateur gunslinger for quick clear, etc). I didn't compare skill points, so that's a fair complaint.

The bonus damage from using grit for a pistolero only exceeds the trench fighter's basic damage if you don't face several encounters per adventuring day.

I was expecting the pistolero to be better, but it wasn't. The big rider on that was the deeds - if you really wanted a particular one (eg knockdown), then gunslinger was much better.

edit: I believe this is why Trench Fighter is only supposed to be usable if playing in a game with guns being common and/or with advanced firearms.

I'll note that for damage, pistolero comes out at level 11 since they can take the Signature Deed feat. That reduces grit cost of a single deed by 1 (down to 'free, but you need to have grit for it to be on' followed by an 'always on' level). That would reduce the cost of Up Close and Deadly (which adds a scaling amount of precision damage, which still does half even if you miss). An additional 3d6 per shot at that level might tip the scales of damage at least, no?


lemeres wrote:

snip for brevity

I'll note that for damage, pistolero comes out at level 11 since they can take the Signature Deed feat. That reduces grit cost of a single deed by 1 (down to 'free, but you need to have grit for it to be on' followed by an 'always on' level). That would reduce the cost of Up Close and Deadly (which adds a scaling amount of precision damage, which still does half even if you miss). An additional 3d6 per shot at that level might tip the scales of damage at least, no?

Yes, that does make the damage better than a trench fighter's. Shows how stopping at a particular level can skew the result. Trench fighter is still ahead on the other factors, but it becomes more of a style issue at higher levels. A useful thing to know, thanks.

Liberty's Edge

Gilarius wrote:
lemeres wrote:

snip for brevity

I'll note that for damage, pistolero comes out at level 11 since they can take the Signature Deed feat. That reduces grit cost of a single deed by 1 (down to 'free, but you need to have grit for it to be on' followed by an 'always on' level). That would reduce the cost of Up Close and Deadly (which adds a scaling amount of precision damage, which still does half even if you miss). An additional 3d6 per shot at that level might tip the scales of damage at least, no?

Yes, that does make the damage better than a trench fighter's. Shows how stopping at a particular level can skew the result. Trench fighter is still ahead on the other factors, but it becomes more of a style issue at higher levels. A useful thing to know, thanks.

This was in fact, the point I was trying to make. :)

And, even pre-11th, more skill points and only slightly less impressive offensive combat skills (Trench Fighters have what, +2 to hit, +2 damage? +4 to each with Gloves of Dueling, I guess...and the to-hit matters very little on a Gunslinger...and maybe one or two more Feats), and better defenses with a Good Reflex Save and Nimble make a Gunslinger superior, IMO.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / What's better Musket Master or Pistolero and why? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.