|
So, as long as we select one of these languages for Mr. Wizard, we can ask the Lantern Archon to make us 5 ever-burning torches while he's around (5 round duration). Each torch sells for 90 gp, and we summon 2/day for a total of 900 gp per day; or 328,500 gp per year.
P 210 of Core states, "When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it had cast expire."
This kiboshes the lantern archon continual flame mill, IIRC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Last I read, you have Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll as feats for Timmy. Neither can use Master Craftsman for CL, so how does he get CL?
More fun: Have Timmy make a Homunculus or two for himself.
Another feat for free money: False Focus. You get up to 100 gp in free material components for use by any spell.
/cevah
Summoned creatures cannot use spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components, use teleportation spells, or use summoning spells.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry, I haven't bothered to read all 94 posts in the last few days, but has anyone considered giving Timmy a whip, lunge, and all the whip feat tree feats? If possible, all the cleave and great cleave feats also. Then, once per round he could hit everything in a 20' radius. So he takes a minus on his attack for using an oversized weapon? -4? whoo... I went back and did find someone who said use one as a 2h weapon... but then also use the 2h weapon with 1 hand (if possible) at whatever negative that is, keep the twf, and whalla, multiple great cleaves in a round.
Also, with those crafting feats that allow you to get to 3.5m... good deal, now you can have your ring of wishes (use activated (thought), unlimited uses, 2.74m gp, slightly cheaper if aligned) AND your 800kgp tiny god too! lolz.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Timmy also has Lunge and Whirlwind attack, so his reach is increased further and he can attack anyone within it as a full-attack action. Any reach weapon will do.
The Whip will negate damage done to anyone wearing armor as well as anyone with natural armor of +3 or better, and Timmy doesn't threaten within the reach granted by it. I'm not sure of the advantage here.
I was thinking whip was only negated by natural armor, which is why I shouldn't respond to posts from my phone. ;)
However if we break into Ultimate Combat you can take a small size Scorpion Whip as a one-hand weapon and scimitar in the other. This allows the scimitar to be used for AoO and the whip to be used for Whirlwind attacks. That allows a 20ft reach whirlwind attack that also attacks adjacent squares and isn't blocked by armor like a normal whip. I know its not core but its fun to picture a tiny man lashing out with his bladed whip.
Sorry, I haven't bothered to read all 94 posts in the last few days, but has anyone considered giving Timmy a whip, lunge, and all the whip feat tree feats? If possible, all the cleave and great cleave feats also. Then, once per round he could hit everything in a 20' radius. So he takes a minus on his attack for using an oversized weapon? -4? whoo... I went back and did find someone who said use one as a 2h weapon... but then also use the 2h weapon with 1 hand (if possible) at whatever negative that is, keep the twf, and whalla, multiple great cleaves in a round.
Also, with those crafting feats that allow you to get to 3.5m... good deal, now you can have your ring of wishes (use activated (thought), unlimited uses, 2.74m gp, slightly cheaper if aligned) AND your 800kgp tiny god too! lolz.
Yes and it was pointed out that whips don't affect creatures wearing armor or with natural armor +3, which is true. In theory a whip can be taken as tiny, but its not spelled out in the book and I'm worried that a tiny whip should have a shorter reach. So I'm trying to stick to small whips if possible at the -2 penalty so its clear that the reach should remain unaltered. Giving Timmy as much reach as possible is critical to maximize his potential damage per round.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In the end, it's definitely not worth blowing all of your cash on this little mud god, but it's pretty funny that you can do this with just the Core book.
I just realized that this thread has been operating under a false pretense. What we are building isn't using rules from the Core Rulebook. The rule for crafting a Homunculus is from Bestiary 1, which I will accept as being core. But the rules for adding Hit Dice to constructs comes from Ultimate Magic. Otherwise we'd have to use the advancement rules from Bestiary (pgs 295-296) which are WAY different. And they require lots of GM decision making during advancement.
So to keep what we have but stick with theme I propose the following books be considered "Core" for this exercise:
Core Rulebook
Bestiary
Game Master Guide
Advanced Players Guide
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Equipment
This opens us up to lots more feats, weapons, items and effects without adding every splat book in existence.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm in lecture right now, but I'm very curious how this would work exactly. Get the crayons out and explain it to me like I'm five please!
So... tempted... to... link... XKCD...
(But I totally empathize. It's not always easy to follow others' thoughts...)
1) Activate Candle and summon an Efreeti
2) Command Efreeti to grant you wish 1 of 3 to emulate Simulacrum targeting itself
3) ...?I'm not sure what you do after that. The Efreeti now has a Simulacrum of itself under its absolute command. Do you use your remaining two Wishes to have the Efreeti use its Simulacrum to craft for you or something? How many different demands can you make?
No, no, no.
It's
Step 1) Activate Candle and summon an Efreeti
Step 2) Command Efreeti to grant you wish 1 of 3 to emulate Simulacrum targeting itself
Step 3) ???
Step 4) Profit!
:D
The reason step 3 is so vague is that there are so many ways you can go from there.
The original bargain is variable as well.
Some (but not exhaustive) examples:
"Make three simulacrums under my absolute command instead of your own."
Valid bargain. How does the <creature you summoned> accomplish this? It doesn't matter. You summon, you bind, you make the bargain.
It could be as simple as their creator creating them, then commanding them to obey your orders instead of it's own, and never coming back for them. It could be as involved as a creature with at Will teleportation/shape shifting using it's contacts to get a one-use item crafted for you so that you can make the simulacrum via the item. Grab a wish-granter and it's self-serving simulacra; have them all make Aid Another successfully checks (granting you a roughly +8 bonus, or [+2 plus +6/day the creature remains]) so that you use a scroll of simulacrum. It's really very variable how it's accomplished.
After you have a simulacrum under your control, you command it to make more simulacra of the base creature, and command it to command them to always obey your commands. Instant super-build.
On the other hand, if all of that can't work, you've basically got 17 days of "force multipliers", where Prime Efreeti A makes 3 simulacra of Prime Efreeti A; those three simulacra (either that day, or, if the GM says "no", then the next day) makes simulacra of Prime Efreeti A. You now have twelve simulacra, and a prime Efreeti. And sixteen (or, if the GM has forced a day-wait, fifteen) days to get them to do stuff. Having twelve (or more) simulacra under it's command (three direct, twelve indirect) means the Prime Efreeti A has received a reward value far exceeding what it could normally expect for this period. These slave are perfect because: they're all him. They already know his will and know it better than anyone else can. In any event, for the remaining time they have with you, they're working their rear ends off. The Efreeti spends each day making three simulacra. Each remaining day, those simulacra grant your wishes (at the Efreeti's command, as per the bargain you made) netting you lots and lots of profit. This is an easy way of making profit.
Either way, enough profit to make better stuff, get more candles, etc.
Heck, make a long-term bargain with the Efreeti during this time: have all of it's simulacra serve you semi-indefinitely and split the profit they make with you and it 50/50... which is actually pure profit for the Efreeti, as it can't normally gain benefit from it's own wishes, but here you are asking to give it money for literally no work on it's own part.
Voila: instant infinite profit.
This works with Solars only slightly differently: slower increase in simulacra, but the following day you have (by way of access to miracles) instant access to True Creation and more uses of Fabricate per day; hence, you can gain rapid profit in terms of Crafting expensive alchemical items to gain insta-wealth. (Fabricate worthless A into valuable item B; True Creation amounts of Item B into more valuable item. Repeat ad infinitum.)
I mean... the ways are too numerous to point them all out. Most of it is able to be pieced together. Heck, Masterwork Transformation via spell-like is an instant +300g to any weapon you've fabricated.
And so on. :)
Hence, enjoy!
Glad you like it!
[Ok, I understand what your thought process is now and I absolutely love it. The only question I have remaining, is: Can the Simulacrum use the Wish spell-like ability (to then create simulacrum)?
Simulacrum states:
"It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)"So it only has half of the spell-like abilities of the Efreeti. Which ones does it lose? Perhaps erring on the side of "the most powerful or highest-level abilities are lost first" would be prudent?
Also, the CL on the Candle of Invocation is only 17, so it's can't summon a Solar, correct?
First: "you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level."
Solars are viable.
Second: "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)."
Not half their SLAs, but half their HD and appropriate etc.
The word "appropriate" is hotly debated, but, in game terms, "appropriate" has always meant "those things based on HD" which, in PF is thoroughly distinguished from CL for SLAs.
If you want to argue that a 5HD Efreeti with CL 5 is "inappropriate" to be able to cast wish, but you're argument is weak because it's not strong enough to "cast" wish in the first place - it's already 7CL short of being "able" to "appropriately" cast wish, hence any argument on simulacra boil down to, "I don't like it" as opposed to, "supported in any reasonable conclusion by RAW." (Note: GMs can and should be free to rule whichever way in their home games, and not permitting this trick is certainly "reasonable" in any home game; however what I am talking about is reasonable readings of the meanings of the rules when taken in context with themselves. Any kind of "reasonable" that would negate the use of chain simulacra would also negate use of Timmy in the first place...)
Hence, it should work just fine in any sort of "setting neutral"/"GM neutral" theory crafting we're doing here. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Summoned creatures cannot use spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components, use teleportation spells, or use summoning spells.Can you cite this ruling please? I'm unable to find it.
Certainly.
Blanket summoning prohibition:
A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.Others:
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).
Summon Nature's Ally and other "Summon X" spells contain the same language.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It does. Anything with a listed cost of 1gp or more, that is. The ones with no listed cost are inexpensive.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Whip will negate damage done to anyone wearing armor as well as anyone with natural armor of +3 or better, and Timmy doesn't threaten within the reach granted by it. I'm not sure of the advantage here.Whip:
A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher.
Got your direction inverted. Also a little off. :-)
The point of the whip is not the AoO, but the reach for the whirlwind and cleave effects. Lager reach = more opponents available to attack.
It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip as a whip.
Solves the damage issue for 4gp.
P 210 of Core states, "When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it had cast expire."
This kiboshes the lantern archon continual flame mill, IIRC.
Hmm, it uses the term "expire" which would imply the duration runs out. Continual Flame has a Permanent duration. Thoughts?
Seems a bit of a stretch so I'm not hell-bent on defending it, but I'd like a second opinion.
A permanent spell is an active spell. It can be dispelled. It therefore goes away with the summoned creature. An Instant spell cannot be dispelled. They don't go away with the summoned creature.
His ridiculous Spellcraft check would also allow him to ignore all prerequisite spells and increase the crafting time significantly.
He cannot ignore the crafting feat(s), and for some things, cannot ignore the spell. [Scrolls, Wands, etc.]
The only question I have remaining, is: Can the Simulacrum use the Wish spell-like ability (to then create simulacrum)?
Simulacrum states:"It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)"
So it only has half of the spell-like abilities of the Efreeti. Which ones does it lose? Perhaps erring on the side of "the most powerful or highest-level abilities are lost first" would be prudent?
Some SLAs are not pegged to HD/levels. These should remain. Ones pegged to HD/levels remain only if enough HD/levels remain. Check out the Simulacrum thread. Some previous posts to mine have James Jacobs' thoughts on the spell, as well as many questions answered.
/cevah
EDIT: Added Simulacrum stuff
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know if it's been mentioned but cooperative crafting would halve your crafting time.
And if you rushed it with an additional +5 to the DC you would double how much gold value you can produce during the day.
Put these two tactics together and you'd have Timmy ready in about 4-ish months.
Solars are viable.
But it then goes on to say:
"In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level."
Which a 20HD Solar does. So, you can call it, but can't make it do anything!?
After finally having the time (been out of town for a bit) to look it up, you are entirely correct. Whoops!
(Somehow, I'd read that passage a lot, but missed that one line repeatedly. Sorry, and thanks!)
That said, I think if you presented a pretty fool-proof way to ensure a tiny god doing good (homunculus is your alignment; you can voluntarily accept an atonement as part of this process) the bargain could be made, but it's better to stick with the player-controlled elements such as efreeti.
Good call, there. :)
Glad you liked the rest of it, though!
Magic crafting can be accelerated to 4 hours/1k gold value by increasing the DC by 5, but I'm uncertain that crafting constructs follows exactly the same rules for magic item creation. Anyone have any ideas?
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. <snip potions and scrolls> This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.
(bold mine)
Also,
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under-construction item are wasted.
So... no crafting things for Timmy until we're done crafting Timmy.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
You don't Summon the Archons, you Call one of them. Called outsiders can use all their abilities normally...and they stick around a LOT longer.
===Aelryinth
Saw a post about CR calculations.
Timmy the Terrible counts as part of the gear of the one that controls it. No XP for you! ^______^
(Demogorgon or some similar entity might have a field day with Timmy, but other than that...)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Timmy's high cost makes him an excellent war machine for a wizard monarch. I can't imagine a dragon being willing to spend that much of their treasure for it unless they had several legacies of dragon treasure hoarded.
Can the shield guardian upgrade work with Timmy?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It seems to be the season for ressurecting threads, so... I'll join in!
Can the shield guardian upgrade work with Timmy?
No, Timmy is a Homunculus and not a Golem.
But just think of what you could do with a Shield Guardian Wax Golem Timmy - those can get class levels!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It seems to be the season for ressurecting threads, so... I'll join in!Can the shield guardian upgrade work with Timmy?No, Timmy is a Homunculus and not a Golem.
But just think of what you could do with a Shield Guardian Wax Golem Timmy - those can get class levels!
Bawww. I missed that it was dead. Somebody mentioned in a another thread and I assumed it read current.
Can you make a wax golem of a homunculus?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can you make a wax golem of a homunculus?
Don't see why not. You could make a Wax Golem of a Simulacrum of a Homunculus Tattoo Tumor Familiar, even.
...just don't ask me what it'd look like.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Recently linked topic, so it's not a two-year necro! ... sort of!
(Except it totally is.)
So, fast crafting: create greater demiplane, erratic trait with meta magic rod of maximize, greater! Voila!
Is less than one month a Necro?
I don't THINK it's a Necro, and hopefully, Tacticslion is still hovering around to help with this.
So. On Page 2, we started going into the non-core rulebooks... however, that swiftly began to cycle into insane infinite money schemes for infinitely powerful homunculus which... whilst fun to think about, tends to stay very firmly in the grounds of theory, and never sees the light of day in play.
Hence I have a different question. Sticking to a 200,000gp limit. (Through abilities that reduce the cost of an item, such as Hedge Magician can be used for increased HD/Price). What builds are people capable of making with a homunculus? I'm very curious to see what people can come up with due to all of the new feats and possibilities opened up since the thread was first created. With, or without the Improved Homunculi options.
|
|
I think Improved Familiar is in the Core book. That will allow the homunuculus to be a familiar to the wizard (or arcane bloodline sorcerer).
Making it a familiar limits it to the maker's (effective) HD, half his hp and skills equal to his own, so it's a terrible choice for this lil' dude.
Now, if it could qualify for Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) and have *it's own* homonculous familiar (with the half of it's own hp), that would rock, but doesn't appear to be an option, due to the feat's prerequisites... :(
I think Improved Familiar is in the Core book. That will allow the homunuculus to be a familiar to the wizard (or arcane bloodline sorcerer).Making it a familiar limits it to the maker's (effective) HD, half his hp and skills equal to his own, so it's a terrible choice for this lil' dude.
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.
Hit Points: The familiar has half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.
Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar’s kind.
Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar’s base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master’s (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.
Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever is better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
Now, if it could qualify for Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) and have *it's own* homonculous familiar (with the half of it's own hp), that would rock, but doesn't appear to be an option, due to the feat's prerequisites... :(
Well, actually, Iron Will --> Familiar Bond can do that.
/cevah
Necroing to ask the obvious:
Why did anyone ever think this is allowed in the core rules?
The Bestiary explicitly states, under Adding Racial Hit Dice,
As a general rule, creatures whose Hit Dice increase by 50% or more should also increase in size, but GMs should feel free to ignore this rule if warranted by the individual creature or situation.
Of course, while there are explicit rules on how to add a size increase to Golems to allow for further HD,
Note:The market price of a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die it possesses beyond the standard for its kind, and increases by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem’s size increases. Building a golem with the advanced simple template increases its cost by 15,000 gp.
There are no rules that allow Homunculi to increase in size in the Core Rulebooks. This effectively caps Homunculi at 3 HD based solely on the information found in the Bestiary, barring GM fiat.
Or, alternatively, you interpret the lack of a cost of a size increase to mean it is both a) possible and b) free (which is generous and much more broadly exploitable). In this case, a Homunculi would be able to exist at the following HD ranges,
2-3 HD Tiny
3-4 HD Small
4-6 HD Medium
6-9 HD Large
9-13 HD Huge
13-19 HD Gargantuan
19-28 HD Colossal.
If you're nonetheless unconvinced, then for your benefit note that there is an equivalency in rulings between Golems and Homunculi: Neither state a HD cap in their entry and it only costs 2,500 gp to increase Golem HD (5,000 price increase means 2,500 cost increase).
I am uninterested in doing the math, but there may be an ideal price for upgraded Golems compared against Homunculi.