Acrobatics long jump ruling


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hello. Very simple questions pertaining to the long jump rules of acrobatics. The wording is ambiguous.

Wording:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start.

Map image related to the question: Here

Questions:

a) What is the standing jump DC for player A to jump to X? Is it 10 or 20?
My understanding: The jump goes from the middle of the square A starts from and ends in the middle of the square X, so the jump distance is 10ft -> DC = 20. Someone argues the DC is 10 because the width of the chasm is only 5ft, so the jump is only 5ft.

Follow-up reasoning: The ranged attack rules for A to throw something to X says the distance is 10ft. Why would jump rules for distance be different?

b) How about for B to jump to Y? B is a large fellow. The middle-to-middle ruling would make this jump 20ft. That is, can a larger than medium creature stand partially over a ledge when jumping?

Another ambiguous wording:
No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.

c) Scenario: B's max speed is 30ft. He has already partially used a double move (30ft+25ft) and begins a jump over the chasm with 5ft of move left. Now, you can interpret the above wording that if B makes the jump, instead of falling, he stops in mid-air and continues the remaining jump movement on the next turn. Does it say somewhere that you're not allowed to remain in mid-air between rounds?

Dark Archive

My best guess at this:

a) the total travel distance is 10' but you only jump over the 5' chasm. Think of them as stepping to the edge (2.5 feet), leaping over (5 feet), distancing yourself from the edge for combat (2.5 feet). This makes the DC for a standing jump as a 10.

b) same idea as the first one. Total movement is 20' with a 10' jump in the middle.

c) I have not run into this often enough for a good answer on this one. I would follow this rule from the core book:

Quote:
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer.

this would put him at the edge of the chasm that he started on. (But that is just how I would play it).


A) It is 10 feet because you are in the air for 10 feet (jumping off from the square where A is now and landing on the square with the X). If you were to walk with levitate, you'd have to move 10 feet. The game doesn't distinguish this idea of 'jumping as you leave the square' and 'landing on the edge to step into the next square'. It does, however, rule in many places that two squares separated by one square is a 10 foot distance (such as in ranged and thrown weapons, movement, reach, etc).

B) A good question, actually. The real issue is whether the creature can use the 'squeezing' rules for the squares directly along the edge of the ravine. That would suggest he's only jumping 15 feet. I'd say that yes, this is possible to do, but it requires an extra 5 feet of movement to the edge of the opening, then a jump of 15 feet to land squeezing on the far edge and then 5 feet of movement to stop squeezing. There's nothing about squeezing that says it cannot be voluntary.

C) You cannot be in mid-air between rounds. The rule for it is what you just quoted. That's what the rule means; that you cannot split your airborne time between rounds. In this specific situation, B is not allowed to jump this round. I assume this is to clarify issues of location and the turn based / all at once issues of a turn in the game. I've let players do it before, because it was reasonable at the time, and other GMs have too, but for strict interpretation of the rules this is not allowed.


A) DC10 (you are crossing a 5ft wide chasm)
B) DC20 (crossing a 10ft wide chasm)

Like with many elements of the rules, the jump itself is an abstraction. You are not necessarily jumping from one square to another, you are jumping as part of a normal move action. IE, jumping is effectively, but not explicitly, a part of movement.

Spoiler:
This not only neatly bypasses the issues with large creatures, it is consistent with the acrobatics rules as written and explains why you need available movement to make a jump. Jumping is not so much a separate action as it is subsumed into a regular move.


A) You want to jump over a 5ft chasm but you have to move 10ft to do it = DC20
B) Hard to answer stricly by RAW. By common sense a larger creature should pass a 5ft chasm more easier than a human. With squeezing rules the large creature can start and end is jump squeezed. So we end up with the same DC as for a medium creature . DC20. A huge creature should pass small chasms if it can touch the starting and landing point (15x15ft. creature = 5ft. chasm)

C) Is this a real question? If you dont have enough movement to jump over a chasm you have to stop or you fall.

Grand Lodge

Almost as many different answers as there were replies.

It would indeed make sense for the jump DC to be determined by the width of the chasm, which would make the DC same for all size categories. This, though, makes you ask the GM every time "How wide is the chasm in this bit where the lines are all bendy and squiggly?", and the DC would vary if you're jumping diagonally.

I guess it's in the hands of the GM what interpretation to use, until we have a FAQ or an actual image of a creature jumping over something, with the DCs displayed.

Thanks.

Liberty's Edge

Skiedragon, I can kind of see what you are saying, but I think the rules spell it out specifically enough.

The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal) or four times the height to be reached (if vertical). These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start.

While movement is calculated in 5 foot increments, jumping is not a type of movement. It is something that can be done during movement that has it's own guidelines.

So, jumping a 10 foot gap is a DC10 (running) or DC20 (standing).


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

That's a five foot gap. If it was drawn a little narrower, it would be a 4 foot gap, or a little wider for a 6 foot gap.

Liberty's Edge

SlimGauge wrote:
That's a five foot gap. If it was drawn a little narrower, it would be a 4 foot gap, or a little wider for a 6 foot gap.

Ah...what?


Yeah, it does not have to be in a 5ft increment. GM's call on fuzzy distances; that's one of the primary reasons he exists as an arbitrator. In combat, you probably won't have the time to find the shortest point should it not be immediately apparent.

I'd avoid actually having 4ft wide objects as a feature on the battle map, though.


A) Make the DC based on the area you need to jump. If you have to jump a 5' chasm, the DC is 10. It just takes 10' of movement to get to the square that you want to be in.

B) I agree with Eridan, but it is not supported by the rules. Per RAW, assuming a 10' chasm, the standing jump DC is 20.

C) This rule has been argued a few times to no clear resolution. I agree that you run out of movement and you fall.


Komoda wrote:
C) This rule has been argued a few times to no clear resolution. I agree that you run out of movement and you fall.

That makes little sense, though.

For example, let's say I have an 11th level human rogue who has a 28 DEX (not unreasonable, given level adjustment and items by that level) with boots of striding and springing, who maxed her Acrobatics ranks and took the rogue talent of major magic and applied it to the spell jump. That would provide:

+10 (Acrobatics skill ranks)
+3 (class skill)
+9 (DEX)
+5 (competence bonus from boots)
+4 (bonus from additional 10' of base speed from boots)
+30 (enhancement bonus from jump)

A total bonus of +61 to any Acrobatic checks for long jumps. At a minimum, rolling a 1, she can leap 62' with a 10' running start, and her leap maxes out around 80'. However, having moved 10' for that running start, and since her base move is 40', by the aforementioned rule she can only jump 70' (via a double-move or charge).

If we're talking about a size-small rogue, the numbers make even less sense. Base move would then be 30', for a total Acrobatics long jump bonus of +57. The minimum leap would then be around 60', but with the character's base speed that far exceeds what any double-move would be. ("I rolled an 18! That means I can jump 75'!" "Uh. No. Only 50'." "But... but... 18!" "Doesn't matter. You already moved 10' and your base speed is 30.")

See what I mean about it making little sense?


Zhameng wrote:
Komoda wrote:
C) This rule has been argued a few times to no clear resolution. I agree that you run out of movement and you fall.

That makes little sense, though.

For example, let's say I have an 11th level human rogue who has a 28 DEX (not unreasonable, given level adjustment and items by that level) with boots of striding and springing, who maxed her Acrobatics ranks and took the rogue talent of major magic and applied it to the spell jump. That would provide:

+10 (Acrobatics skill ranks)
+3 (class skill)
+9 (DEX)
+5 (competence bonus from boots)
+4 (bonus from additional 10' of base speed from boots)
+30 (enhancement bonus from jump)

A total bonus of +61 to any Acrobatic checks for long jumps. At a minimum, rolling a 1, she can leap 62' with a 10' running start, and her leap maxes out around 80'. However, having moved 10' for that running start, and since her base move is 40', by the aforementioned rule she can only jump 70' (via a double-move or charge).

I don't see what's wrong with this. Difficulty checks aren't movement. All of this just guarantees she can make a 62' jump and almost certainly can make a 70'.


Right, the game put a mechanical limit on your jumps so you wouldn't act like a grass hopper. Makes sense to me.

The part in question was always what happens when you are in the air at the end of your movement? Do you fall or hang there until next round?


daimaru wrote:

I don't see what's wrong with this. Difficulty checks aren't movement. All of this just guarantees she can make a 62' jump and almost certainly can make a 70'.

I thought about this while I was out running and decided that I was wrong. A double 40' step is not the same as a single 80' step. If the chasm is more than 40' wide the rogue doesn't make it. Can't take a second jump while in the middle and falls. She can run up to the chasm as the first move and make a full 40' jump as her second.

All of the extra acrobatics skill is simply wasted for the purpose of making jumps.


Isn't it amazing how much we think about this game?

Lantern Lodge

CRB 88 wrote:
The base DC to make a jump is equal to the distance to be crossed (if horizontal)

To me this looks pretty spelled out. If it's a 5-foot gap the DC is 5 because that's the distance of the area to be cleared; you don't have to clear the landing spot. If you are not jumping over a gap, but just moving 5 feet does that count as 10 feet? No, it counts as 5, just like the jumping scenario. The only difference is that with jumping you have to spend at least 10 feet of movement to jump the 5 foot gap because you don't want to end on the square with the hole in the floor.

If your movement ends in midair one round you shouldn't float or fall. Movement is continuous and time doesn't stop when your turn ends. You make the jump check when you start your jump and travel as far as your movement will allow that round. If that means you are in midair and still have 10 feet of gap to clear then next round your first 10 feet is spent clearing the gap and then you finish your movement like normal, assuming your acrobatics check was high enough. If you get attacked while you're in midair remember this.

CRB 87 wrote:
If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.


What about the fact that I can now stand in your landing spot, spoiling your jump?

In almost all cases your actions are resolved before the end of the round, not during the next one.


The rules for Jump in 3.5 had this to say;
"If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump."
While not PF RAW, since PF seems to be silent on this issue, I would probably use this.

I can't seem to find it, but isn't there a rule that lets you start a spell that takes a full round to cast with a standard action in 2 rounds...
rnd 1
move action
StandardAction= begin spell

rnd 2
SA= finish spell
move action


Even if that is a rule, it doesn't let you defy gravity and hang in the air while waiting for your next turn. Many flying creatures can't even hover. Jump won't allow you to.

Imagine a high jump at the end of your turn so that an enemy can't reach you. Do this every round and you can't be touched my melee weapons.


Komoda wrote:

Even if that is a rule, it doesn't let you defy gravity and hang in the air while waiting for your next turn. Many flying creatures can't even hover. Jump won't allow you to.

Imagine a high jump at the end of your turn so that an enemy can't reach you. Do this every round and you can't be touched my melee weapons.

Rounds are an abstraction to promote smooth game play. So you don't stop mid-jump and wait for everyone to do stuff (see the goblin battle scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_iDtCP1m5Y). As for the High jump at the end of turn;

"An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation."
Are you saying "high jump at the end of your turn" is a legal part of an attack action or a legal reaction (NOT a readied action) to an attack? Otherwise I don't see how you could High jump without taking another action, probably provoking an AOO. Which basically turns it into an Attack followed by a move, which is legal (and usually provokes an AOO).


I get your point. It doesn't play out that way. You can imagine it that way, but it cannot play out that way as all actions are resolved before you end your turn. The only one that I can think of outside of that is spell casting. It has special rules to deal with it. None of them require the caster to defy gravity.

You do stop mid-jump, as far as the game is concerned. Every single person within range of your target square has the ability to get there. They can step into it, making it near impossible for you to do so. They can put a wall of force in front of you, stopping you in your tracks. They can shoot you with a bow, messing up your landing. They can cast a multitude of spells that immobilize you. They can do all of this because you are hanging in the air and it is now their turn. Normally, only those with readied actions could do so.

That is how the game resolves actions even if it isn't how it is imagined. It is only imagined that way so that you aren't "standing around" during the time that other people go. Now matter how you envision it, it is played as if you are hanging in mid-air.

You can jump as a move action. Attack, jump, end of round, fall to ground, attack jump, end of next round.

Yes, it would be difficult, but if you could end the round in mid-air, it would be possible.


Ok op the target number is based on the minimum number of feet you would need to jump to cross the gap
So for A its DC 10 twice the distance to be crossed a little common sense say that someone trying to jump a gap is not going to stand 2.5 feet from the edge they'll be as close As they can be , why make it harder for your self
And B is DC 20 for the same reason


Rounds, like hit points, are an abstraction. 3.5 blatantly called this out for the jumping rules. Any concern over some silly high jump corner case is ridiculous, for a number of reasons.

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