wish and miracle and casting


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Wish can:
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.

Wish is a std action.

BUT- nowhere does it say it reduces the casting time of spells . In fact it says it Duplicates the SPELL- not the spells' effect.
Legend Lore (for example) can take days to cast. Can you then Wish to cast a legend Lore in one std action?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Wish specifically lists 1 standard action as it's casting time, so yes.


Rathendar wrote:
Wish specifically lists 1 standard action as it's casting time, so yes.

It does. But it does also call out the changes in the spells, and casting time is not mentioned.


Seems pretty straightforward. It duplicates the spell. You don't cast that spell, you cast this spell, and produce that spell's effects.

Same goes for shades, meaning if you're okay with a demiplane being only 80% real, you can create a plane of existence in a standard action. :)


seebs wrote:

Seems pretty straightforward. It duplicates the spell. You don't cast that spell, you cast this spell, and produce that spell's effects.

Yes, it duplicates the spell. But what you're saying is that it duplicates the spell's effects.


Well, you are paying a high material component cost to cast legend lore as a standard action. So it's not a problem.

Sczarni

Here's the setup I like: Ring of wishes (infinite charges, use activated(so you can mentally command it to work)) costs about 2.7 million gold. Ring of Limited Wishes though... much much cheaper (241,000 if "bought", about 200,000 if made). Now I have a Character who casts as a 13th lvl wizard (with UMD check) and can cast any 6th level or lower mage spell or 5th level or lower spell of any other class. Oh yeh, mentally, and at will (basically a standard action per cast). Also, there are only 3-4 spells in that level range which would require the additional material costs (and thus wouldn't be castable without the added materials).

If only I had the 2.7m for the uber ring... alas... an entire country's wealth... for a ring of infinite wishes...

So if anyone ever offers to start a high level campaign at level 20, the ring of limited wishes and a homunculus with 200 extra HD (and thus a +202 BAB) is the way to go! Then you can spend your other 400k gold (maybe get an Iron golem with 40 extra hd? Naw... ).


DrDeth wrote:
seebs wrote:

Seems pretty straightforward. It duplicates the spell. You don't cast that spell, you cast this spell, and produce that spell's effects.

Yes, it duplicates the spell. But what you're saying is that it duplicates the spell's effects.

Well, yeah. Look through the various spells, and you'll note that some spells which invoke other spells say something about the other spell's casting time, others don't. If it doesn't say it depends on the other spell's casting time, it doesn't.

Note also vision, which gets you a legend lore as a standard action, only it makes you fatigued. 25kgp of material components strikes me as a lot more expensive than fatigued.


TyrKnight wrote:
Well, you are paying a high material component cost to cast legend lore as a standard action. So it's not a problem.

Of course, then it's argued you can build a Wizard with a 50 str who can cast Wish for free via Blood Money, which "of course" (note sarcasm) is allowed in every game.


DrDeth wrote:
TyrKnight wrote:
Well, you are paying a high material component cost to cast legend lore as a standard action. So it's not a problem.
Of course, then it's argued you can build a Wizard with a 50 str who can cast Wish for free via Blood Money, which "of course" (note sarcasm) is allowed in every game.

I am SOOOO TIRED of this argument popping UP...

Please if you are going to reuse this argument please at least make it accurate.

The wizard needs a str of 51 because at 0 str he would be paralyzed and unable to finish casting the spell!!!!!!


seebs wrote:

Seems pretty straightforward. It duplicates the spell. You don't cast that spell, you cast this spell, and produce that spell's effects.

Same goes for shades, meaning if you're okay with a demiplane being only 80% real, you can create a plane of existence in a standard action. :)

So if you go into that demiplane, does only 80% of you go in? Do you go into a plane with lots of "Under Construction: signs about?

Ughbash wrote:

Please if you are going to reuse this argument please at least make it accurate.

The wizard needs a str of 51 because at 0 str he would be paralyzed and unable to finish casting the spell!!!!!!

Well, to be entirely accurate.... :-)

Strength damage applies a penalty until it equals the score, and then it makes you unconscious, not paralyzed. [PRD]

/cevah

Sczarni

How do you build a wiz with 50 (or 51) Str? Given a 20 point build; even very high rolls on 3d6 (18) and some racial bonuses don't get me to 50. Item bonuses +6, Wishes another +5 (perm)... so that gets me to about 30... oh, and is Blood Magic a high level spell that is going to require him to have higher than 10 Int? Seems like that might be the case... (GM Fiat would be the only way I can see to do this)


Blood Money, spell level: 1


maouse wrote:
How do you build a wiz with 50 (or 51) Str? Given a 20 point build; even very high rolls on 3d6 (18) and some racial bonuses don't get me to 50. Item bonuses +6, Wishes another +5 (perm)... so that gets me to about 30... oh, and is Blood Magic a high level spell that is going to require him to have higher than 10 Int? Seems like that might be the case... (GM Fiat would be the only way I can see to do this)

Magic Jar a monster with a high strength plus a high level Form of the blank spell along with others makes it fairly easy.


maouse wrote:
How do you build a wiz with 50 (or 51) Str? Given a 20 point build; even very high rolls on 3d6 (18) and some racial bonuses don't get me to 50. Item bonuses +6, Wishes another +5 (perm)... so that gets me to about 30... oh, and is Blood Magic a high level spell that is going to require him to have higher than 10 Int? Seems like that might be the case... (GM Fiat would be the only way I can see to do this)

Blood money is a 1st level spell. And getting to 50 str usually involves some shenanigans with magic jar and a giant, and then casting form of the dragon III, along with some other stuff.

Edit: damn ninjas.

Sczarni

Yeh, But aren't cast spell stats (ie. non-perm stats) not usable for other spells? Highest critter in original bestiary is Tarn Linnorm at 42. Tarrasque at 41, and Shoggoth at 40 (only ones above 30). And, well, those are already Huge and Colossal, so you don't get the "stacking" strength bonus from size the spell notes. Probably don't from doing it to a giant either. If a GM lets you stack size bonus (instead of taking the highest one) then your GM isn't paying attention...

For instance, if you take a HUGE storm Giant (39 str), their strength bonus for size is already calculated in for HUGE. Spell has zero effect on strength.

If you take over the Linnorm or Tarrasque, and cast the spell, you actually LOSE Strength going from Colossal to Huge.

I can see 5 wishes and a +6 str magic item (after 24 hours) getting you there... but what were we casting again? Wish... once?


maouse wrote:

Yeh, But aren't cast spell stats (ie. non-perm stats) not usable for other spells? Highest critter in original bestiary is Tarn Linnorm at 42. Tarrasque at 41, and Shoggoth at 40 (only ones above 30). And, well, those are already Huge and Colossal, so you don't get the "stacking" strength bonus from size the spell notes. Probably don't from doing it to a giant either. If a GM lets you stack size bonus (instead of taking the highest one) then your GM isn't paying attention...

For instance, if you take a HUGE storm Giant (39 str), their strength bonus for size is already calculated in for HUGE. Spell has zero effect on strength.

If you take over the Linnorm or Tarrasque, and cast the spell, you actually LOSE Strength going from Colossal to Huge.

I can see 5 wishes and a +6 str magic item (after 24 hours) getting you there... but what were we casting again? Wish... once?

Storm giant has a str of 35. None of that is from a bonus, just flat 35. Cast form of the dragon III and get a +10 size bonus which stacks with your other [none] bonuses to str. Belt of str +6 gets you to 51.

It is quite the cheese move, but rules legal.


quoting Anzyr from another thread:

Anzyr wrote:

9 Base STR

+10 size Form of the Dragon 3
+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).

Isn't even that hard.


maouse wrote:
And, well, those are already Huge and Colossal, so you don't get the "stacking" strength bonus from size the spell notes.

Size Bonuses don't care what size you started out as. See Alter Self.

A small creature could Alter Self into a different small creature and get +2 Size Bonus to dex. A medium creature could Alter Self into a Medium Creature and get a +2 Size Bonus to Strength.

Where it gets even crazier (if such base creatures are available) is that a Large or larger creature could Alter Self into a Medium one and get a +2 Size Bonus to Strength, while a Tiny or smaller creature could Alter Self into a Small creature and gain a +2 Size Bonus to Dexterity.

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