How did the player feel about the effectiveness of her character, Laiho? It sounds like a conflict of expected conventions this time.
OK, but a Bard is feat starved, and what you get back is only a +2 to the save, and you lose -2 to Will, -2 to Perception, -2 to Sense Motive, and also become very vulnerable to Wis drain attacks.I guess you didn;t look hard as I only had to go 3 guides down, under:Treantmonk's Guide to Bards "Wis: 7 (-4). That's just one.And it's not bad advice either, as long as you bolster the Will Save a bit. A Half Orc Bard with the right Traits and Iron Will can manage a +5 Will Save at 1st level with Wis 7 if he takes Iron Will. That's excessive, but a +1 or +2 is very doable, and really just not that bad.
um... what....
when did this happen?....
I'm currently playing in a 3d6-in-order-for-every-stat game.
This leads, unsurprisingly, to the occasional character who is well below average in most respects. For example, one with a dexterity of 14 or so, a strength of 6, and no mental stats high enough to be a spellcaster. Thematically, it makes sense for such a character to play a rogue.A theorycrafter might say that such a rogue would be almost completely unable to contribute in combat. The theorycrafter would be correct in this case.
That style of character generation I hate above all else...
I'm sorry but I refuse to play "dumb" martials (i.e. anything that believes the answer to life is "I full attack").
I will play "pseudo-martials" like Druids, Magi (the ability to cast other spells is still useful), and Alchemists but never something like a Paladin/fighter/barbarian/ranger. When you do the "roll in order" thing, you force a person to play certain characters if they feel like playing even remotely useful (im sorry but a 10 int wizard is not "roleplaying" it is dumb and completely useless).
This sounds like the general rule about "not playing with jerks" would apply.
Also, too many players forget that the party can just say "good bye" to any PC that is being nasty. Of course, like you said the party can;t act on player knowledge, but there was likely plenty of hints, clews and just plain nasty behavior apparent.
Oh, believe me, we wanted to kick him out of the group DESPERATELY. But at the time his girlfriend was also in the party, and our GM felt bad, so we got stuck with them for a looong time. In the end, he got what he deserved, and left the group anyways haha
I posted much earlier about a ninja/ranger, or "ninjer" as we called it. The same player (in 3.5 days) played a favored soul and forgot to pick spells between 3rd and 7th level. Thats definitely an absolute worst, just for differetn reasons. He was a pretty dedicated melee guy. To be fair, I also posted once about one of the best characters he played. It was a fighter that saved the entire party (which included a wizzard and cleric) from TPK.
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This is something where I have to disagree with you. I believe that a character's stats should be a reflection of your own character's backstory and behaviour. It's much more fun to get a character concept and then try to stat it out than to roll a generic min-maxed wizard (which we're all perfectly capable of) and play that. It's good exercise in roleplaying, and stats based off of a character concept are never necessarily "bad".Funny, that. In my experience "Worst PC" nearly always goes hand in hand with players who can´t disconnect "roleplay" and charakter stats.
It´s a common thing in my erea (where neither Pathfinder nor any D&D edition is the premier rpg in the market) to see a lot of player´s who need to see things translated to stats or they can´t connect to a charakter.
"Hm.. I play an average Human, those guys can cook, so I need Craft: Cooking to show that, maybe he´s a good cook? Skill Focus could show that. He can´t be an adventurer all his life, so maybe Profession: Inn Keeper? Yes, that should do it...."
(Plus: games are more Story-driven around here. It s nearly unthinkable that an player charakter could die in combat as the story would end right there. That leads to people acting stupid in tactical combat as they know nothing bad will happen).So, most of the time, every new player I have at my table recreates the "Worst PC ever" from scratch, mostly the "Former Apprentice" who can´t do ****.
Except your character becomes nothing but dead weight... studies show that many movies goers actually DISLIKE characters that are utterly useless and get the heroes in more trouble due to their incompentency... and this is no different at a table top...
As an example: Start of Wormwood Mutiny. One player made a Half-Elvish Gunslinger with STR 14 (Guns have recoil!) and more or less all other Stats at 12. Skill were Athletics, two Craft and two Profession skills, all solely connected to a backstory that didn´t matter, Feat was Two-Weapon Fighting to portray the ability to wield a pistol and a dagger at the same time, ´cause that´s cool and the SKill Focus set on Perform (Singing) so he could sing along with the party bard. No Armor ´cause that went against the picture in his head.
Ok, that is decent thinking on transporting an image of a charakter into the game, no problem here, commendable, really, but it isn´t a working charakter.
As we still had time, I took that player aside and wanted to talk his choices through with him, so he could more easily enjoy his charakter in a combat heavy game like an adventure path. He seriously told me that he´d need to have those stats and skill pouints or else he couldn´t reach immersion into the game. I told him that he could simply describe singing alongside the bard, that no roll would be necessary to do this. This was commented like this: If no roll was necessary, I can´t know how good my charakter performs at...
To be honest if you started to tell me how I should play my PC in a game I'd have walked too.
Perhaps it would have been better for him/her to come to their own conclusion.
It's not telling you how to play your character.. he is trying to help you not regret your choices later when your ass is constantly having to be saved by everyone else...
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One thing jumps out after reading all the horrid characters described above:
Many of the problems described in the above 200+ posts resulted from creating high level characters from scratch, rather than leveling them up from first level. E.g. bad feats, expectation mismatch, boggled by complexity, failing to choose the right spells, failing to take sensible combat actions, etc. About half the problems described above would completely vanish had the characters been played up from first level. Consider that next time you start a new campaign.
Thanks for all the funny stories!
In our local PFS group, we have a level 10 barbarian with 7 AC and no armor. His reasoning is "They're going to auto-hit anyway, so having armor is dumb."
He regularly pushes the local life oracle to the limit. I am amazed he has yet to die even once.
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Agreed with Anarchy. This thread is nothing but moaning about bads in our group.
Another story: had a dude who, when playing a cleric, decided that his level 2 powers could stop the plotline of the GM:
GM: okay, let's see which NPCs died in this giant battle... *rolls*... You find Sir Edward (dude we know, but is of little importance) lying on a cot, nearly dead, with a large hole cut through his stomach from a spear. He's bleeding severely, and the doctor (level 8 cleric) looks at you and solemnly shakes her head.
PC: I cast cure light wounds, bringing him above 0
Everyone else: dude, he's dead, you can't do anything.
This went on for about half an hour. He was trying to argue that his heal spell would bring him out of negative HP and back alive, and everyone else was trying to tell him that this was a moment of gameplay and story segregation, the GM decided that this person would die. He simply wouldn't be convinced. It wasn't even an alignment-based action, he was NE. I swear, he is the single most annoying person I have ever played with. If the GM is repeatedly telling you "no, he's dead" after having listened to your argument, just give it up!
In his defense, if the GM did say @[/say did say nearly [/]nearly dead, that was a valid move. Hell, I'd have bumped his alignment for that.
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I played with a guy who ran a monk in PFS. Monks are already MAD, but this guy took it to a new level. His lowest stat was a 10, his highest was a 14. When he reached 4th level, by the grace of God and the forbearance of other players, it was suggested he bump his 13 str or dex to 14, for the mechanical benefits. He worried it would imbalance his character, and so raised his Charisma from 10 to 11.
Playing along side him with his "flurry of misses" was excruciating. He wandered away from the boss combat in a particularly lethal scenario to fully explore the monastery it was set in, and in so doing nearly caused a party wipe.
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One thing jumps out after reading all the horrid characters described above:
Many of the problems described in the above 200+ posts resulted from creating high level characters from scratch, rather than leveling them up from first level. E.g. bad feats, expectation mismatch, boggled by complexity, failing to choose the right spells, failing to take sensible combat actions, etc. About half the problems described above would completely vanish had the characters been played up from first level. Consider that next time you start a new campaign.
Thanks for all the funny stories!
Um no. A character is far more effective when made from scratch.
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A character is far more effective when made from scratch.
At high level? If you have system mastery, that's probably true. But an inexperienced player who doesn't know what they're doing will end up with a badly statted character and lots of abilities they don't know how to use.
I've come to the sad conclusion that my JuJu Oracle in Way of the Wicked is the worst (that I've played, anyway).
Not because of anything I did, particularly, besides focusing heavily on Necromancy (which, admittedly, is probably the only reason we did as well in army combat as we did), but because of the fact my greatest achievement in 3 or 4 sessions is hitting a Movanic Deva with my sling for 5 damage.
Seems like no matter what I do I A.) Roll a 2-3 on Spell Resistance (I generally only need a 4, but oh well). And EVERYTHING has Spell Resistance or B.) The enemy rolls super high on saves or C.) Has some other way to f*%& with everything forever (Constant Lesser Globes of Invulnerability have cropped up more than once. I don't like this.).
Basically, Celestials are a#*&*#&s. I'd much rather be fighting Fiends, they're weaker for their CR.
I think my main mistake was not being an arcane caster. I could at least have some b$#!#in' no SR spells to toss out then.
Started to make me a bit testy as well and I just can't stop myself from b!&~%ing about it every time something doesn't work (which is basically every time I try to do anything besides heal someone. And even THEN we have a Barbarian with Superstition...-.-) which I'm sure isn't fun for everyone else.
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A character is far more effective when made from scratch.At high level? If you have system mastery, that's probably true. But an inexperienced player who doesn't know what they're doing will end up with a badly statted character and lots of abilities they don't know how to use.
Anyone with some basic number crunching ability and a copy of the rules can do that.
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Anyone with some basic number crunching ability and a copy of the rules can do that.A character is far more effective when made from scratch.At high level? If you have system mastery, that's probably true. But an inexperienced player who doesn't know what they're doing will end up with a badly statted character and lots of abilities they don't know how to use.
And anyone with a multilingual dictionary, some grammar rules, and knowledge of the sounds can master a new language.
Doesn't mean that the mastery comes over the course of a half hour.
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The worst character I've ever seen is the one I'm currently playing offline.
Background: The GM had this rule that the stats you roll are the stats you have to live with; no rerolls. This was in response to the group's powergamer. He decided to abandon this rule after seeing my character in action and will do point-buy in the future.
Pretty much, I got the most horrible stats you could get; 8 or below. So, since it was level 1, I made a goblin commoner that was intended to die in the first combat. Even rolled up his replacement. Just for giggles, I named him Cannonfodder Trapfinder and would have him rush into battle and intentionally annoy enemies.
He's now level 8. And he won't die. And he's still a commoner.
That would give you some little flexibility in playing him. =)
6 million ways to die :)
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Worst PC I DM'd was a martial arts psion: Monk3/Egoist5/Psionic Fist 1. I tried my best to let the guy play the character he wanted, and merge his bizarre concept into the world. There were story lines, special items, etc.
But by 9th level he had a BAB of +4 (for his this "tank" build), and took 5-6 rounds to buff himself to reasonable effectiveness. By that time the other PCs (all single-class, core PCs) had usually finished the fight.
The rules mechanics eventually became so complex that even he couldn't play the character.
The worst I've played was in a one-shot game of Mutant Future. The stats were just horrific and the combination of mutant abilities and deficiencies were comical. I could change the size of objects and could move like a simian, but I was a deaf mute.
The scenario began with the characters coming out of cryo in a dark room with an unknown force draining their life away. Unable to see, hear or otherwise interact with the other PCs, my character's first action was to try to run to find some sort of exit from the silent, painful dark. DM rolled to see which direction I ran...right into another PC...the one with the poison skin. Failed save. Dead.
He lived for exactly one action.
We all laughed so hard the game had to stop for 10 minutes or so.
I tried the exact same character when the DM ran the scenario at a con. I made it to the wall, but before I could find the door, the unknown force drained his HP. Lasted 2 rounds that time. :-)
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To irritate an awful GM, I once exploited my knowledge of the game system in Shadowrun Third Edition and made an accountant. No joke, straight up accountant who never left his cubicle farm and was really good with international finance and accounts receivable. The other players were annoyed with the GM too so they kept me alive no matter how utterly useless I was in any situation we found ourselves in.
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I want to run a cleric of the god of athesim. Always gets rejected.
The less you believe, the more powerful she becomes! Stop believing! Stop believing!
More seriously, I once met a player who just started and his stat array was(or similar too, memory is always fuzzy) 10/10/10/10/10/18. That 18? That's charisma. This was a martial. So he was really good at talking to people but failed to hit the broadside of a barn too often, didn't qualify for power attack or deadly aim, and when he did hit he didn't hit too hard. If I remember right, his logic was "I'm a paladin, so because I can smite once per day I don't need any other stats!" which... may have been flawed in a combat heavy campaign setting that we were in. Because he was a paladin, he didn't even have skill points to pump social stats. He was pretty hateful about people who made suggestions, didn't work with the party, and if I remember right ragequit and blamed other people.
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I would have to say the worst character I have ever seen was one of mine, after I had been gaming for years. It was not for a bad build, it was a Rogue, optimized for finding and disabling traps, and he set off every trap the party encountered. Not because I didn't search, but because I failed every check to find them, and then walked right into them. I didn't get it, I did not build him for combat, but got more crits than the Fighter of the group, and even healed the Cleric when he fell in battle. Ultimately, he died to a trap.
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The worst character I've ever seen is the one I'm currently playing offline.
Background: The GM had this rule that the stats you roll are the stats you have to live with; no rerolls. This was in response to the group's powergamer. He decided to abandon this rule after seeing my character in action and will do point-buy in the future.
Pretty much, I got the most horrible stats you could get; 8 or below. So, since it was level 1, I made a goblin commoner that was intended to die in the first combat. Even rolled up his replacement. Just for giggles, I named him Cannonfodder Trapfinder and would have him rush into battle and intentionally annoy enemies.
He's now level 8. And he won't die. And he's still a commoner.
This is beautiful
I dont remember what I was playing on dragonlance, but when he died, I had to hurry with new one. Not any idea what to do, I said to make a gully dwarf barbarian. And then I rolled 16 for minimum stat. We stopped playing shortly after.
I missed one of game weekends and when I was back, my friends told all things he did in my absense. For example, he had fight against whole city at and in couple of roofs, before he decided to hide and run after other characters. I heard it was quite epic, which alone gave him 2 whole levels, but I couldn't play him after that. Everyone expected too much for him and I had no idea, what he could do or how.
worst I've seen was the Ultra-Multiclass
The player was so obsessed with "Being Useful to the Party" that he tried to take levels in everything. I think he ended up being a Wizard/Cleric/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue
Stupidly high saving throws but useless at everything
I swear, he is the single most annoying person I have ever played with. If the GM is repeatedly telling you "no, he's dead" after having listened to your argument, just give it up!
I gamed a couple of times in high school with a guy called Andy. The guy was basically Lenny from 'Of Mice And Men.' We had to build his character for him according to his specifications, and we ended up with a ranger with 16 Str and 8 Dex who only carried a bow. Because reasons.
<- This guy.
I swear. He started out as a 3.5 character in a PbP, and was brought back for two separate campaigns. Two out of three times, he was killed within the first few encounters, once in a near-TPK. The final straw was when, after the near-TPK, our new PCs fought our old ones who had been reanimated as dread zombies. My old PC dropped VERY quickly. Damn shame, really...
a Natural Human Weretiger Wizard/Ranger/Abjurant Champion who depended on hybrid form and spells to engage in combat, due to random stats, the only way he could fight was to enter hybrid form and buff himself.
There's a big difference between 'You can't fire arrows at this guy while he's completing the summoning ritual because he's surrounded by a Wall of Force' and 'You can't fire arrows at this guy while he's completing the summoning ritual because that would spoil the non-interactive story I'm trying to tell'.And if he made the wall of force up on the fly then what's the difference?The difference is that the former causes the world to cease to seem like a logically consistent place where the players have control over their characters.
So, if you ever want a character to be past salvation but not dead, try: 'He's suffering from an injury that causes Con Drain Bleed that can only be treated by a Restoration spell or Miracle.' (He can still die during the casting of the spell if they make the attempt - Restoration has a one minute casting time.)
Well then I guess Paizo staff are bad DMs and writers, because...
Something people tend to forget a lot is that PCs are exceptions. Why doesn't every peasant that is injured healed? Make a pirate with a wooden leg? Why, when magic could easily restore the leg entirely? Because healing magic especially is something that is a necessary game mechanic, and while it exists for the mundane non-player characters, it's not something thrown around for everyone every day like OH damn John just got skewered by that pitchfork that fell from the loft... call the cleric, we need a resurrection up in here! Doesn't work that way.
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The difference between the two is that a Regenerate costs money and a high level caster.
Cure Light Wounds requires neither.
If you make a setting where powers like this exist, and are in fact pretty common, your setting needs to take those powers into account, and the stories you write do as well.
So yes, that is an example of bad writing.
I haven't had any grievously mechanically inept characters but... here's the first character who came to mind when I read the title of this thread:
A summoner|alchemist in a gestalt game who introduced his character by entering the scene with his catgirl eidolon on a leash. And then was surprised and befuddled when the entire party and a few nearby NPCs reacted badly.
Yeah.
The real question is, does it matter?
Does any of this... matter?
What is the meaning of existence?
Ranger 4/ Sorcerer 1/ Bard 1... (OMG, why?)
The real question is, does it matter?
Does any of this... matter?
What is the meaning of existence?
Yes.
Yes.
Pie, I think.
These things I am going to destroy!
Ranger 4/ Sorcerer 1/ Bard 1... (OMG, why?)
We had a couple of those kinds of builds in my aforementioned high-level Age of Worms game. The first one was an 8th-level bard / 8th-level ranger, and the second was (if I can remember correctly) a 1st-level rogue / 2nd-level sorcerer / 1st-level fighter / 4th-level wizard / 1st-level eldritch knight. The ranger/bard couldn't fight or cast spells worth a damn, and mainly just used magic items to levitate around healing people while invisible, while the player of the spastic magic user ended up simply rebuilding her character as a magus half-way through the campaign.
And then, of course, there was one of my early 3.5 characters, who was a cleric/wizard/druid. The early '00s version of me was an expert in being useless.
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I haven't had any grievously mechanically inept characters but... here's the first character who came to mind when I read the title of this thread:
A summoner|alchemist in a gestalt game who introduced his character by entering the scene with his catgirl eidolon on a leash. And then was surprised and befuddled when the entire party and a few nearby NPCs reacted badly.
Yeah.
So much nope.
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So much nope.I haven't had any grievously mechanically inept characters but... here's the first character who came to mind when I read the title of this thread:
A summoner|alchemist in a gestalt game who introduced his character by entering the scene with his catgirl eidolon on a leash. And then was surprised and befuddled when the entire party and a few nearby NPCs reacted badly.
Yeah.
Ah, yes. The "catgirl master." What got me was the PLAYER didn't understand why the characters were reacting badly either.
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At GenCon I saw a girl dressed as a cat on the floor playing with a ball of yarn while her (I assume) her boyfriend held onto her leash.
All kinds, man. All kinds.