Vital strike and Grab damage

[Smokescreen99]

I was not able to find the answer; maybe I was just a noob sorry for that.

Character has:
Vital Strike
Grab (Ex) (Unarmed strike)
Unarmed damage 2d8 +5 str
Improved Grapple
Greater Grapple

First round:
Standard action: Successful hit with vital strike active.
Damage 4d8 +5

Free Action: Successful Grab check
Both gained Grappled condition.

Move Action: Maintain Grapple: Success -> Automatic Grab damage 4d8 +5
Free: Damage : 2d8+5

From the rules of Grab:
"If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text)."

Did I miss something? Seems with a good Vital strike this is better than constrict after the first round, if you want to maintain the grapple, and you can improve it with power attack and so on.
(if you can attack many times: hit, grab, constrict, release is more powerful ofc)

Thank you.

[Imbicatus]

It doesn't work. It does the base damage of the attack that established the hold. Vital Strike modifies the damage dice of an attack only under the specific circumstances allowed by the feat. Any other damage roll that uses the unarmed strike damage that is not the result of a vital strike attack deals the base damage.

[TyrKnight]

Yeah. It's a special attack to vital strike. So you can't combine it with a grapple check, which is itself its own special attack.

Edit: With Greater Grapple, the round after using grab, you could attempt to maintain the grapple as a move action, dealing 2d8+5 damage, then make a second grapple check as a standard action to deal damage again, 2d8+5.

I'm not sure where your "free damage" is coming from because you don't indicate that you have any ability (like constriction) which grants "free" damage.

If you take Rapid Grappler, you can make three grapple checks each round as a swift, move and standard.

[TyrKnight]

Also, not to nitpick, but "It does the base damage of the attack that established the hold" is incorrect. It is true it does the base damage. But it does not have to be the attack that established the grapple. You can use any natural attack or unarmed strike when you are maintaining the grapple.

So a dire tiger could grab with a claw, deal 2d4+8 damage, and the next round, maintain the grapple and deal bite damage, 2d6+8, if successful.

[Mojorat]

Actually, grab specifically indicates you are doing the damage from the grapple with the grabby limb. The wording to grab also seems to support the fact that alot of creatures with grab have enough CMB to glomp multiple people and avoid the grappled condition.

So gitant tentacle monster laches 3 tentacles on 3 differetnt targets takes -20 to its cmb and next round strangles 3 people with said tentacles.

But really, to do vital strike damage you need to be vital striking.

[Archaeik]

Smokescreen99 wrote:

From the rules of Grab:
"If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text)."

Did I miss something? Seems with a good Vital strike this is better than constrict after the first round, if you want to maintain the grapple, and you can improve it with power attack and so on.
(if you can attack many times: hit, grab, constrict, release is more powerful ofc)

Thank you.

Quote the whole thing please

Grab (Ex) wrote:

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

The sentence you quoted only applies if you declare the Grab using the hold rules (-20 to hit).

Grab is a free action, there is no reason why Vital Strike would preclude you from using it.

Constrict is indeed automatic additional damage, the clause regarding hold however is there to indicate that a hold does damage every round, even if you choose not to constrict. (But only if you also have the Constrict attack in addition to Grab for this to apply.)

"the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold" means the base damage, not combined with any special modifiers (although you should get any riders, such as flaming). If you happened to crit on the attack that establishes a hold, you wouldn't add this, would you?
However, this should be taken very literally, if you established the hold with a Claw, you can't deal this automatic with your Bite, even if your Bite was the weapon you chose for damage during a maintain.

[TyrKnight]

I misunderstood because I failed to realize he was taking the penalty to grapple with only that limb. I've never seen anyone use that because the penalty is too restrictive.