This actually just came up in my Forgotten Realms campaign - a woman was murdered, Raised, and had a child ca 9 months later, the question arising whether she might have been pregnant prior to being killed. But I'm running Rise of the Rune Lords and Sandpoint includes the arbotificer Hannah Velerin, a NG Elf one goes to to end a pregnancy. Ending a pregnancy once the foetus has a soul seems a lot like murder (and this is the basis of RL religious objections), which might make the NG alignment look iffy.
I guess my own preference for the game setting is that the soul is something that comes into being over time during the process of growth between conception and birth, rather than coming into existence at the moment of birth (which seems very arbitrary to me) or at the moment of conception (which would seem to make Hannah a murderer), but I was wondering if there was an official answer. It's not just a metaphysical question, since it also has implications for the Raise Dead spell; do you need two Raises (with two 5,000gp diamonds) to bring back a pregnant woman and her unborn child, and if so, from what point? I'm guessing the designers' preference might be that souls of children only come into existence at birth, since that fits closest with 'modern' morality, which is what Golarion generally operates under?
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Guh...
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As far as I understand it there is a three part process to a soul living on the material plane:
1. Forged/grown/coalescing on the positive energy plane.
2. ***
3. Born and going about their business.
Number 2 is a bit fuzzy and should be based off what your group os comfortable with.
As far as I understand it there is a three part process to a soul living on the material plane:
1. Forged/grown/coalescing on the positive energy plane.
2. ***
3. Born and going about their business.Number 2 is a bit fuzzy and should be based off what your group os comfortable with.
Thanks for the reminder re souls being created on the positive energy plane, that'a useful detail when considering the morality of Hannah Velerin. I was thinking of going with a 'quickening', which I think originates from St Augustine, that the soul enters the body at a point after conception, I think he said 12 days, which to me sounds early but reasonable. So a 'morning after pill' wouldn't affect an unborn soul at all.
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Yay i'm useful!
YMMV
It gets more complicated once you get into the creation myths of the various races (i.e.: dwarves were forged by Torag). But essentially, the creation of souls is the purview of the gods. How each deity does it is his/her own business.
I'd simply go with: is the deity that favors the mother/child understanding and compassionate or an EXPLETIVE BLEEP!
The soul of mother and child are one OR separate according to that higher power's wishes. Note that I'm not necessarily talking about actively worshiped, but a LG human goddess of family and protection would be more benevolent towards a human LG mother than a orc goddess of survival of the fittest.
I'm a Mormon. In my religion, a person's soul has always existed and will always exist. Just like matter/energy never have a beginning or end. At some point (at conception, at birth, or somewhere in between), the soul enters the body.
I think if I were GMing and something like this came up, that'd be my answer.
According to Hebraism and early Christians, around the third month.
Me, I'd say that "one Raise Dead is enough" as the child's soul, if any, is bond with the mother's before birth.
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I'd say the child gets its soul after birth, with the first breath taken (sucking in the soul, basically).
Really, it makes everything easier, helps alot of people and the point of this "abortion is murder"-discussion is essentially nullified. Which is really for the best.
Thanks for the reminder re souls being created on the positive energy plane, that'a useful detail when considering the morality of Hannah Velerin. I was thinking of going with a 'quickening', which I think originates from St Augustine, that the soul enters the body at a point after conception, I think he said 12 days, which to me sounds early but reasonable. So a 'morning after pill' wouldn't affect an unborn soul at all.As far as I understand it there is a three part process to a soul living on the material plane:
1. Forged/grown/coalescing on the positive energy plane.
2. ***
3. Born and going about their business.Number 2 is a bit fuzzy and should be based off what your group os comfortable with.
The morning after pill and regular birth control pills both work the same. They mask the hormone level in female body when conception occurs. So the body think conception did not occur and the embryo does not attach to the placenta instead leaves the body during menstruation. This can take up to 36 depending on the women and how the pill effects them but typically about 14 days.
I'd say the child gets its soul after birth, with the first breath taken (sucking in the soul, basically).
Really, it makes everything easier, helps alot of people and the point of this "abortion is murder"-discussion is essentially nullified. Which is really for the best.
It's my personal thought that soul enters the body when the body is ready to recieve a soul and not before then. The body is a vessel and a soul can not reside in vessle that is not ready for it or is too damamged for it to remain. So I suspect the sould enters an new born close to birth as the body would ready then and not before then. The spirit comes earlier, that is the spiritual energies that come from all living cells. The more complex the creature the more complex the spirit. You basically have the phyical, the spiritual and the soul.
So the theory is souls go to heaven, spirits remain and break up over time to collesque with a new life. This is where re-incarnation comes from when enough fragments of the spirit of dead person form the spirit of new life. This would be the source of memories of a past life. When you have a medium talking to the dead the it's the spiritual energy that is dragged around with connections to loved ones that still live.
This just my belief though and is faith based not scientific. If science ever comes up with an answer I'd be greatly interested to see how my faith is compared to reality.
It's my personal thought that soul enters the body when the body is ready to recieve a soul and not before then. The body is a vessel and a soul can not reside in vessle that is not ready for it or is too damamged for it to remain. So I suspect the sould enters an new born close to birth as the body would ready then and not before then. The spirit comes earlier, that is the spiritual energies that come from all living cells. The more complex the creature the more complex the spirit. You basically have the phyical, the spiritual and the soul.
So the theory is souls go to heaven, spirits remain and break up over time to collesque with a new life. This is where re-incarnation comes from when enough fragments of the spirit of dead person form the spirit of new life. This would be the source of memories of a past life. When you have a medium talking to the dead the it's the spiritual energy that is dragged around with connections to loved ones that still live.
This just my belief though and is faith based not scientific. If science ever comes up with an answer I'd be greatly interested to see how my faith is compared to reality.
Wow, I like that idea as well. This is actually quite good! Thank you!
On another note, I'd rule that you can't raise an unborn child with raise dead or the like. Because, in my thinking, it's not really "alive" if you would call it so. It's just... uhm... a thing(?). Maybe you can raise it after the point it can reasonably (and that's important!) survive outside the womb of its mother. Which, according to Carl Sagan (the only argument I can remember) is somewhere in the last trimester of human pregnancy. So.. 7th month and later.
At conception, a soul is a soul, does not matter if it has a body consisting of one cell or a trillion
Ah, let's not even go there. What other one-cell organisms have souls then? Making us all murderers? Not just the half-elf lady in Sandpoint, by some standards?
At conception, a soul is a soul, does not matter if it has a body consisting of one cell or a trillionThat's a perfectly valid opinion. There's nothing however, that mandates it as setting "truth". And I have given examples of settings where it does not apply. At best as far as the core setting is concerned the question is unanswered and that's not likely to change. Nor should it... let DM's decide for themselves.
Yes, it is a perfectly valid opinion. That's right. But it comes with buckets of problems concerning ethics and morals that I think it just isn't the right place to discuss.
According to Hebraism and early Christians, around the third month.
Me, I'd say that "one Raise Dead is enough" as the child's soul, if any, is bond with the mother's before birth.
Thanks.
One possibility that occurs to me is that it takes as long for new souls to travel from the soul-forge as it does for them to travel to the afterlife on death. AIR that was 30 days in 1e AD&D, and Pathfinder seems to work similarly with the Raise Dead spell.Thanks to those who've given advice, I think I have a better idea how I'll tackle it.
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I'm a Mormon. In my reliinhabits person's soul has always existed and will always exist. Just like matter/energy never have a beginning or end. At some point (at conception, at birth, or somewhere in between), the soul enters the body.
I think if I were GMing and something like this came up, that'd be my answer.
This reminds me of a game I played years ago (Celtic themed) were a variant version of reincarnation was the only raise dead type magic available.
A character was shaped partially by the body they're in and this shaping took on a karmic twist. For example, a rapist might come back as a pre adolescent girl. A paladin might come back as an orc etc. Treating the body as the "cup" which the soul inhabits or the clothing they wear is an interesting take on a soul that has no beginning or end.
The OP seems to be asking about setting based, let's try to keep it there before this explodes and the mods have to do something about it.
Yes, I wasn't looking for a discussion of RL morality, past or present.
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Life begins after you roll your stats, doesn't it? :-)
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Life begins after you roll your stats, doesn't it? :-)
That assumes you survive character generation.
In my old homebrew, the most common (core) racial belief was that the raw "fuel" for the soul was already in the body before birth, but it didn't "kindle" until the baby's first breath of air. Whether that meant the soul was drawn in with that first inhale or that breath baked/cooked the proto-soul ingredients into a finished soulfflé (Yes, I know that's a horrible pun) was something we never explored in-game.
Edit: Now I vaguely remember wanting to link the "kindle" explanation with the possible warding against "soul expulsion" by saying "Bless you" after a sneeze... but my memory is hazy. I never used the "sneezed out their soul" plot hook either.
According to Hebraism and early Christians, around the third month.
Me, I'd say that "one Raise Dead is enough" as the child's soul, if any, is bond with the mother's before birth.
If by "Hebraism" you mean Judaism, it's actually nowhere near that simple, and varies from conception to 40 days after conception to when the child takes its first breath.
I believe the soul comes into existence when you roll the character's ability scores.
The morning after pill and regular birth control pills both work the same. They mask the hormone level in female body when conception occurs. So the body think conception did not occur and the embryo does not attach to the placenta instead leaves the body during menstruation. This can take up to 36 depending on the women and how the pill effects them but typically about 14 days.
You are correct that emergency contraception and normal birth control pills work similarly, however, the mechanism is by preventing ovulation, not implantation. If emergency contraception is used after fertilization has occurred, it is ineffective in preventing pregnancy.
This is something I don't expect the designers to ever make a firm statement on, as it's a hot button issue without a clear right and wrong side.
I believe the soul comes into existence when you roll the character's ability scores.
If a creature doesn't have stats, does it really exist?
Only if it is a god. All other creatures have stats. I.e. They have charisma and wisdom scores. It COULD of course be a hazard.
I'm a Mormon. In my reliinhabits person's soul has always existed and will always exist.This reminds me of a game I played years ago (Celtic themed) were a variant version of reincarnation was the only raise dead type magic available.
A character was shaped partially by the body they're in and this shaping took on a karmic twist. For example, a rapist might come back as a pre adolescent girl. A paladin might come back as an orc etc. Treating the body as the "cup" which the soul inhabits or the clothing they wear is an interesting take on a soul that has no beginning or end.
Monte Cook created the Blessed Souls in his Book of Hallowed Might. Blessed Souls are the inverse of undead- spirits of unborn children who act as guardian angels and swing greatswords. I always thought it was great.
Only if it is a god. All other creatures have stats. I.e. They have charisma and wisdom scores. It COULD of course be a hazard.
Achaekek and Cthulhu have stats. Achaekek and Cthulhu are gods. Therefore, gods have stats.
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Only if it is a god. All other creatures have stats. I.e. They have charisma and wisdom scores. It COULD of course be a hazard.Achaekek and Cthulhu have stats. Achaekek and Cthulhu are gods. Therefore, gods have stats.
You are incorrect. Cthulhu isn't a full God, but a demigod (see his only having 4 Domains), and Achaekek doesn't have Pathfinder stats and never will (because he is a full God and they don't have stats in Pathfinder)...there's a 3.5 set of stats for him, but 3.5 had a different philosophy on deities.
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Thank you for pointing that out.
I'm not going to be the one to tell Cthulhu he's not a god.
