The fate of Taldor


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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I've been playing as a taldan pathfinder for some time now, and I noticed the taldan background is moving somewhere(slowly but it is).

Taldor is described as an ancient proud and powerful empire that has been steadily declining for a long time. Its aristocracy is mostly complacent and corrupt while its population (the 99% of it that's not "bearded") is poor and has to choose between a life of misery and military duty in the hopes of rising up and join the senatorial class.

Taldor also has several dire enemies: Quadira and Taldor hate each other and currently are engaged in a sort of cold war, Cheliax foundation was the reason Taldor lost its supremacy (and Quadira's invasion suceeded) so Taldor sees it as only marginally better than Quadira, Galt represents all of Taldor worst fears, as what happened there could very well happen in Taldor if the population grew even more dissatisfied with teh current underwhelming situation.

This is the situation as described in the setting, and Taldor's Grand Prince, Sativan the 3rd, is weak and ineffective, unlikely to even try to wake Taldor from its complacency. Yet he has a daughter that could much likely try to steer the ship in the right direction, but she can't inherit the throne (traditionally it belongs to male descendants of the ruling line).

In the last few years the focus of Taldor has shifted (at least as long as the PFS is considered) from retrieving works of art and doing the shady bidding of a corrupt noble to trying to recover the lost greatness of Taldor through valiant deeds and showing everyone what Taldor truly stands for. At the same time we learned some unpleasant truths about the ruling line of royals (not going to go deeper than that, I don't want to spoil anything unless it's really relevant to the discussion) and yet Taldor pathfinder's faction is heavily involved in leading a crusade composed by those lords who still remember what Taldor used to stand for againt the demon legions of the worldwound.

So all things considered, although the situation seems dire I think Taldor can still save itself and change its thematical focus and become something different (at least in an AP, the devs have shown they are OK with changing the world in APs as long as what happens just translates to individual campaigns).

What are your thoughts on the Taldan situation and its possible outcomes?

I can think of 3 possible scenarios:

-Taldor's decline continues and Princess Eutropia acts to get the reins of power, plunging the empire into a civil war. This prompts Galt symphatyzers to act and unleash a new revolution and other regional powers to intervene, starting the equivalent of Golarion's world war 1. What happens after the dust settles depends on the faction who wins. Either way Golarion is not the same place anymore.

-Taldor's decline increases its pace and the old empire topples under the weight of its failures. Quadira invades and Taldor can't effectively defend itself. Although they can fight and even stop the invasion at the end of the day Taldor is so waekened, it eff3ectively ceases to exist, at least not as one of the main regional powers in the setting.

-Princess Eutropia's coup suceeds (maybe as the culmination of an AP) and Taldor changes its direction. Decline is stopped and the empire strats growing strong again. It will take some time but Taldor is now a power on the raise instead of being on a path of self destruction.

This is what I can think of atm. Do you think there are any other possible outcomes for Taldor? What would you like to happen to it?


I'd like to see Taldor regain contact with its distant Tian-Xian colony, Amanandar, and possibly between the two start to re-establish Taldor as a viable Empire once again.


I'd like to see them go back to the ways that got them to empire status in the first place.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think it's basically impossible for Taldor to return to being a strong empire, that times has passed. Doesn't necessarily mean they can't be great, but Princess Eutropia would need to take it into a whole new direction, give upon the glories of the past and create a glorious present.

Sovereign Court

For your #1 possibility, if outside forces attempted to as the Taldan Empire delves into civil war, I think that would be a galvanizing force between an Taldan Factions (nationalism is a potent element within Taldor, after all) and could actually help solidify Princess Eutropia's position as Grand Princess, especially if those outside forces are thoroughly beaten back. Grand Princess Eutropia, The Bond of Taldor.

So her ascension to the throne sparks a civil war, which inspires an outside force (Galtan insurgents, Qadiran raiders, Chelaxian agents, whatever) to attempt to plunge the Empire into deeper turmoil. The plot is found out, uniting the opposing forces against the external threat and their domestic allies and destroying them utterly. Grand Princess Eutropia's position is solidified and becomes the first Grand Princess of Taldor, and leads the nation from its ashes back towards its former greatness, as a phoenix in rebirth.

Liberty's Edge

I think the Taldan empire only worked when it was that. An empire. Its a very pale shell of what it used to be. It reminds me of a Spain or France when it had all these colonies funding money back to the central coffers. Now those colonies arnt and dont and Taldor cannot support what it has at home.

Silver Crusade

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Taldor will never be as great an empire as it once was. Neither will Cheliax. That's just how empires go, and the story of Golarion is far more interesting with the continent divided amongst lesser powers.

The most Taldor can hope for right now is to become a relevant force in Inner Sea politics again, which is perfectly within their power if Princess Eutropia and her supporters (such as Lady Gloriana) can solidify the support they need.


The "World War One" mention gave me the idea that Taldor could be seen as the equivalent of the Ottoman Empire on the eve of WW1. It could meet a similar fate with the equivalent of the Young Turks taking power under a Kemal type character, overthrowing the old imperial house, but harnessing nationalist sentiment. For Taldor it sounds as if that would be a mix of Galtan ideology combined with homegrown anti-Qadirism.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Combine it.

An open invasion of Qadiran forces the ruling caste to act when they find out, that Prince Stavian is not able to lead the nation in this coming war.

The PC's are at a border station when the Princess visits as the Qadirans attack. Task 1: Save the princess and bring news of the attack to the capital, while they are chased by the Qadiran cavalry.

This would lead to grand battles between the Taldoran and Qadiran armies while other discoveries could lead to another male descendant of the ruling line of Taldor (just throwing things at the wall)...


Oliver von Spreckelsen wrote:

Combine it.

An open invasion of Qadiran forces the ruling caste to act when they find out, that Prince Stavian is not able to lead the nation in this coming war.

The PC's are at a border station when the Princess visits as the Qadirans attack. Task 1: Save the princess and bring news of the attack to the capital, while they are chased by the Qadiran cavalry.

This would lead to grand battles between the Taldoran and Qadiran armies while other discoveries could lead to another male descendant of the ruling line of Taldor (just throwing things at the wall)...

I think the WW1 idea is the one with more potential, yes. All these regional powers are in a state of unstable ballance between themselves. The situation is explosive so when an event triggers it the fuse is lit and it's only a matter of time before the bomb explodes.

If we want to keep the real world reference maybe the Grand Prince is assassinated and this is enough to cause turmoil in Taldor, the other regional powers feel threatened and intervene and from there the situation moves towards a world scale conflict (Andoran vs Cheliax, Galt fomenting disorder, Quadira invading, Osirion trying to use the conflict to sever all ties with Quadira and so on... Absalom is of course in the middle of it as it has everything to lose from an all out war scenario).
So the AP could revolve about stopping a conflict with potentially millions of deaths, and the key could be finding those who are really fomenting chaos (because in an AP, there should be a "real big bad") and stopping their plan. Or the plan could initially suceed and the AP should be about stopping the various conspiracies the big bad has started all over the inner sea region and stopping the ongoing war before the apocalyptic plan comes to fruition.


An idea I once had involved dragons. Still having massive wealth at home, and seeing the success Cheliax has had allying with devils, Stavian puts the call out for dragons to suppliment his armies, paid for with the gold of the glories of old. They do, and they crush the Qadiran military, though not the entire nation. Then the dragons set up shop instead of going home. Unable to oust them by force, Stavian officially makes certain powerful individual dragons regional governors.

This idea was supposed to be the theme of a new Taldan AP, sort of "Against the Dragons", where all of this unfolds early on (or even behind the scenes) and the main AP deals with getting rid of the dragons. But in this case, maybe Taldor can rise to new heights of power, just under the crushing talons of draconian overlords.


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Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that the canon speaking of the current state of the Empire is in a place where the primary elements are all in the mind of the reader. Josh Frost spent quite a lot of his word count on Cassomir rather than on developing the Empire itself. Consider that this thread speaks more about Princess Eutropia than the canon's two sentences ever did.

The answer to the original poster's question is whatever you want it to be. We would need a new and well-done setting book to have any more to work with.

-Matt

Silver Crusade

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Mattastrophic wrote:

Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that the canon speaking of the current state of the Empire is in a place where the primary elements are all in the mind of the reader. Josh Frost spent quite a lot of his word count on Cassomir rather than on developing the Empire itself. Consider that this thread speaks more about Princess Eutropia than the canon's two sentences ever did.

The answer to the original poster's question is whatever you want it to be. We would need a new and well-done setting book to have any more to work with.

-Matt

Totally agree.

It needs the love that Ustalav got in Rule of Fear.


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I would like to see Taldor's incredibly long history brought to the fore. A country that has survived for almost 5000 years should be incredible.

Even if the ancient Roman Empire still survived today it would only be half that age!


Every time Taldor comes up my I remember my dream.


If we assume that Taldor is based on the Byzantine Empire (or TvTropes lied to me,) then there are two real options.

1. It sticks to its inspiration. The obsession with the old ways and glories is part of the reason the Byzantines died. Trying desperately to hold on to that doesn't make you a strong nation. It was more excusable after the fall of the West. They were holding on to civilization while everyone else descended into barbarism. But Golarion never had that. Cheliax was always at the same level of civilization as Taldor.

The weak and stupid ruling class is certainly not a good sign and it was another problem the Byzantines had.

2. It doesn't stick to its inspiration. Lots of things have been changed about Golarion countries and their inspirations so why not the inevitability of the Byzantine's decline? This is still a fantasy story where a few heroes can right the course of a nation. Besides the country is always saved when things look completely hopeless.

For more macro signs, there is the fact that Taldor has obviously kept its military up. It has kept what it has after all. Cheliax and Galt have their own problems to deal with which leaves only Quadira to deal with. Cheliax, Andoran, and Absolam have no special love for Quadira. They might decide they don't want to replace the weak Taldor with the strong and expansionist Quadira and intervene on their side.


Another option: slow fragmentation of Taldor into de facto independent regions with regional governors/magnates/military commanders gaining full control over their regions. The court might delude itself that it remains central government ignoring the split, or it might be a knowing facade maintained with a support of the regional powers (regional overlords do what they want as long as they pretend to following central orders and court only issues orders that regional overlords would actually want to follow). In this case Qadira might prepare for invasion, try to assimilate border regions peacefully ("Lord Guardian Of The East Border... Wouldn't you think that Viceroy Of The West would be better title? It has much more legal powers and imperial stipend attached. Not to mention lucrative function of overseeing trade with Qadira proper..."), try to maximize fragmentation by quietly goading regional overlords against each other or even enter into local wars with individual regions while maintaining more or less peaceful relations with others.


TwoWolves wrote:


An idea I once had involved dragons. Still having massive wealth at home, and seeing the success Cheliax has had allying with devils, Stavian puts the call out for dragons to suppliment his armies, paid for with the gold of the glories of old. They do, and they crush the Qadiran military, though not the entire nation. Then the dragons set up shop instead of going home. Unable to oust them by force, Stavian officially makes certain powerful individual dragons regional governors.

This idea was supposed to be the theme of a new Taldan AP, sort of "Against the Dragons", where all of this unfolds early on (or even behind the scenes) and the main AP deals with getting rid of the dragons. But in this case, maybe Taldor can rise to new heights of power, just under the crushing talons of draconian overlords.

Certainly we still need to learn what exactly happened with Choral's descendants. Could "Choral" pull out a second "brevoy coup" in Taldor?

One problem with Quadira doing things peacefully is Taldans and Quadirans hate each othe guts. And on the border near Zimar this hate actually excalates into frequent skirmishes. I doubt Taldans would accepts quietly a quadiran overlord.

As for the Byzantine inspiration it's obviously there... along with other stuff, for example Taldor has much more in common with a classic fantasy kingdom than with the Eastern Roman Empire, and it has quite a different History and role (Taldor is the grandfather of Chaeliax, Andoran and all the other states that split from it, the Byzantine Empire was the successor splitting from the Old Roman Empire, basically when it moved the capital from Rome to Byzantium). So I don't think the Byzantine theme should be taken to extremes or mean Taldor automatically falls to Quadira (being vaguely similar to the Ottoman Empire)


I can see Taldor slipping into a civil war between several factions that are funded by outside forces. What remains is either a shell of the shell it is now, a renewed and invigorated nation, or a mess of balkanized states and territories that may or may not get gobbled up by their neighbors.

I'm reminded of the end of the Wrath of the Righteous AP where it details what happens if the PC's fail...

Spoiler:
Andoran and Taldor form an alliance, split Galt between them and halt the advancement of the demons for at least a little while.

That hints that all they need is a major threat, preferably a non-Qadiran one, to spur them on to greatness once more.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Larkos wrote:

If we assume that Taldor is based on the Byzantine Empire (or TvTropes lied to me,) then there are two real options.

1. It sticks to its inspiration. The obsession with the old ways and glories is part of the reason the Byzantines died. Trying desperately to hold on to that doesn't make you a strong nation. It was more excusable after the fall of the West. They were holding on to civilization while everyone else descended into barbarism. But Golarion never had that. Cheliax was always at the same level of civilization as Taldor.

The weak and stupid ruling class is certainly not a good sign and it was another problem the Byzantines had.

2. It doesn't stick to its inspiration. Lots of things have been changed about Golarion countries and their inspirations so why not the inevitability of the Byzantine's decline? This is still a fantasy story where a few heroes can right the course of a nation. Besides the country is always saved when things look completely hopeless.

For more macro signs, there is the fact that Taldor has obviously kept its military up. It has kept what it has after all. Cheliax and Galt have their own problems to deal with which leaves only Quadira to deal with. Cheliax, Andoran, and Absolam have no special love for Quadira. They might decide they don't want to replace the weak Taldor with the strong and expansionist Quadira and intervene on their side.

It is possible that civil war (despite the horrific costs) could be the best thing to happen to Taldor.

  • It would force a braking of the numerous traditions that keep the nation from progressing.
  • The Nobility would be given a choice - make a new deal with the peasantry or face what happened to Galt.
  • While an opportunistic invasion from Qadira is likely, the Keleshites may find holding the territory harder then they expect.

    You know, this might be an inspiration for an awesome AP.


  • Honestly, I don't think Golarion necessarily "repeats" as much as it "rhymes" with Earth.

    Taldor is like the "Greek-Roman civilization", except a little reversed in that it starts East in Greece/Byzantium and moves West (imagine if Alexander, the Great had gone west toward Carthage and Rome instead of east), while at the same time "democratic" notions like those in Athens and Rome had yet to take hold.

    Taldor maybe corrupt and riddled with Byzantine level intrigues but that doesn't necessarily mean it will end like the Eastern Roman Empire did. The Ottomans didn't have an independent (and hostile) Egypt (Osirion) in the game. The Turks had pirates in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia as an extension of Ottoman power that raided and harassed Europe's flank, while Qadira, doesn't have that important asset. I don't think Cheliax will run interference for Qadira the way France sometimes did for the Turks, and its not an "empire-in-name-only" entity like the Holy Roman Empire was.

    Silver Crusade

    Lord Fyre wrote:
    Larkos wrote:

    If we assume that Taldor is based on the Byzantine Empire (or TvTropes lied to me,) then there are two real options.

    1. It sticks to its inspiration. The obsession with the old ways and glories is part of the reason the Byzantines died. Trying desperately to hold on to that doesn't make you a strong nation. It was more excusable after the fall of the West. They were holding on to civilization while everyone else descended into barbarism. But Golarion never had that. Cheliax was always at the same level of civilization as Taldor.

    The weak and stupid ruling class is certainly not a good sign and it was another problem the Byzantines had.

    2. It doesn't stick to its inspiration. Lots of things have been changed about Golarion countries and their inspirations so why not the inevitability of the Byzantine's decline? This is still a fantasy story where a few heroes can right the course of a nation. Besides the country is always saved when things look completely hopeless.

    For more macro signs, there is the fact that Taldor has obviously kept its military up. It has kept what it has after all. Cheliax and Galt have their own problems to deal with which leaves only Quadira to deal with. Cheliax, Andoran, and Absolam have no special love for Quadira. They might decide they don't want to replace the weak Taldor with the strong and expansionist Quadira and intervene on their side.

    It is possible that civil war (despite the horrific costs) could be the best thing to happen to Taldor.

  • It would force a braking of the numerous traditions that keep the nation from progressing.
  • The Nobility would be given a choice - make a new deal with the peasantry or face what happened to Galt.
  • While an opportunistic invasion from Qadira is likely, the Keleshites may find holding the territory harder then they expect.

    You know, this might be an inspiration for an awesome AP.

  • +11111!11one1!11

    An old-fashioned political intrigue AP could be just the right thing after Iron Gods, too.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    What I am personally planning is writing a homebrewn campaign set in Oppara, which ends up with a civil war for the crown between different noble factions (and the PC's in the middle/fighting for one of the factions).


    DaemonAngel wrote:

    Honestly, I don't think Golarion necessarily "repeats" as much as it "rhymes" with Earth.

    Taldor is like the "Greek-Roman civilization", except a little reversed in that it starts East in Greece/Byzantium and moves West (imagine if Alexander, the Great had gone west toward Carthage and Rome instead of east), while at the same time "democratic" notions like those in Athens and Rome had yet to take hold.

    Taldor maybe corrupt and riddled with Byzantine level intrigues but that doesn't necessarily mean it will end like the Eastern Roman Empire did. The Ottomans didn't have an independent (and hostile) Egypt (Osirion) in the game. The Turks had pirates in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia as an extension of Ottoman power that raided and harassed Europe's flank, while Qadira, doesn't have that important asset. I don't think Cheliax will run interference for Qadira the way France sometimes did for the Turks, and its not an "empire-in-name-only" entity like the Holy Roman Empire was.

    Well there was a classical Greece in the setting already called Iblydos which is why I consider Taldor to be closer to the Byzantines. And you're right, it won't exactly the same. We both gave reason why it wouldn't be so in either case.

    Quadira is also a smaller part of a huge empire (Kelesh) so it has more power than the Ottomans did as Kelesh is much bigger and doesn't appear to have as many enemies on the eastern side of its empire.

    As to your point about the Barbary States, yes that is true but there are substitutes. Andoran and Cheliax are both too busy with each other to really harass Taldor but Galt could be a problem. The Galtans hate foreigners and might decide to alleviate their domestic problems with a foreign war just like Post-Revolutionary France did. Taldor is right below them and probably the best target. So there is a smaller state that could harass them with Quadiran support. They haven't given Galt any support but that doesn't mean that can't or won't in the future.


    Larkos wrote:
    DaemonAngel wrote:

    Honestly, I don't think Golarion necessarily "repeats" as much as it "rhymes" with Earth.

    Taldor is like the "Greek-Roman civilization", except a little reversed in that it starts East in Greece/Byzantium and moves West (imagine if Alexander, the Great had gone west toward Carthage and Rome instead of east), while at the same time "democratic" notions like those in Athens and Rome had yet to take hold.

    Taldor maybe corrupt and riddled with Byzantine level intrigues but that doesn't necessarily mean it will end like the Eastern Roman Empire did. The Ottomans didn't have an independent (and hostile) Egypt (Osirion) in the game. The Turks had pirates in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia as an extension of Ottoman power that raided and harassed Europe's flank, while Qadira, doesn't have that important asset. I don't think Cheliax will run interference for Qadira the way France sometimes did for the Turks, and its not an "empire-in-name-only" entity like the Holy Roman Empire was.

    Well there was a classical Greece in the setting already called Iblydos which is why I consider Taldor to be closer to the Byzantines. And you're right, it won't exactly the same. We both gave reason why it wouldn't be so in either case.

    Quadira is also a smaller part of a huge empire (Kelesh) so it has more power than the Ottomans did as Kelesh is much bigger and doesn't appear to have as many enemies on the eastern side of its empire.

    As to your point about the Barbary States, yes that is true but there are substitutes. Andoran and Cheliax are both too busy with each other to really harass Taldor but Galt could be a problem. The Galtans hate foreigners and might decide to alleviate their domestic problems with a foreign war just like Post-Revolutionary France did. Taldor is right below them and probably the best target. So there is a smaller state that could harass them with Quadiran support. They haven't given Galt any support but that...

    Its suggested in "Qadira: Gateway to the East" that the satrap is looking through all the laws and treaties for any pretext to launch a war with Taldor. That may mean that the Empire at the present isn't interest in potential conquest, so he's trying to "force" a war. All politics being local, Quadira being a provence (and not the richest or most important) of the larger Kelesh Empire maybe a hindrance in itself. The greater empire is awash in prosperity with little external (no Ottoman/Persia rivalry) or internal (rebellious Arabs/Egyptian) threat. The powers that be in the distant capital may not be interested in rocking the boat. Hebizid Vraj, the Imperial Vizier in Qadira is actually working against the satrap's ambition to launch a war.

    As to Galt: its a wild card. Anarchist and violent revolutionaries have long shown themselves to be convenient tools for potential tyrants and Empire builders, so they might team up with Xerbystes II. But that will surely bring in Andoran.

    There is also a certain other wild card that Golarion has that Earth doesn't. One that changes all our speculated out comes. PC Heroes ^_-

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Hrothdane wrote:

    Taldor will never be as great an empire as it once was. Neither will Cheliax. That's just how empires go, and the story of Golarion is far more interesting with the continent divided amongst lesser powers.

    The most Taldor can hope for right now is to become a relevant force in Inner Sea politics again, which is perfectly within their power if Princess Eutropia and her supporters (such as Lady Gloriana) can solidify the support they need.

    Taldor isn't exactly irrelevant... It's pretty much the same situation as Babylon 5's Cardassia. It's a far cry from being reduced to the state of Constantinople.


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    LazarX wrote:
    Hrothdane wrote:

    Taldor will never be as great an empire as it once was. Neither will Cheliax. That's just how empires go, and the story of Golarion is far more interesting with the continent divided amongst lesser powers.

    The most Taldor can hope for right now is to become a relevant force in Inner Sea politics again, which is perfectly within their power if Princess Eutropia and her supporters (such as Lady Gloriana) can solidify the support they need.

    Taldor isn't exactly irrelevant... It's pretty much the same situation as Babylon 5's Cardassia. It's a far cry from being reduced to the state of Constantinople.

    *sents hired assassins and professional duelists to kill LazarX*

    Spoiler:
    Centauri Republic, for the thousand gods' sake, Centauri Republic! Cardassia is completely another story!


    Drejk wrote:
    LazarX wrote:
    Hrothdane wrote:

    Taldor will never be as great an empire as it once was. Neither will Cheliax. That's just how empires go, and the story of Golarion is far more interesting with the continent divided amongst lesser powers.

    The most Taldor can hope for right now is to become a relevant force in Inner Sea politics again, which is perfectly within their power if Princess Eutropia and her supporters (such as Lady Gloriana) can solidify the support they need.

    Taldor isn't exactly irrelevant... It's pretty much the same situation as Babylon 5's Cardassia. It's a far cry from being reduced to the state of Constantinople.

    *sents hired assassins and professional duelists to kill LazarX*

    ** spoiler omitted **

    LOL beat me to it. :D

    Sovereign Court

    LazarX wrote:
    Taldor isn't exactly irrelevant... It's pretty much the same situation as Babylon 5's Cardassia. It's a far cry from being reduced to the state of Tatooine.

    FIFY ... if you're going to mix your sci-fi, best to push all the buttons. ;)

    RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

    Hrothdane wrote:
    Lord Fyre wrote:


    It is possible that civil war (despite the horrific costs) could be the best thing to happen to Taldor.
  • It would force a braking of the numerous traditions that keep the nation from progressing.
  • The Nobility would be given a choice - make a new deal with the peasantry or face what happened to Galt.
  • While an opportunistic invasion from Qadira is likely, the Keleshites may find holding the territory harder then they expect.

    You know, this might be an inspiration for an awesome AP.

  • +11111!11one1!11

    An old-fashioned political...

    I could see this:

    Book 1 - Some heroic quest that brings the heroes to attention of the major players in Taldor's Bearded Class.
    ***
    Book 3 - Begins with the assassination of the Grand Prince. It deals with the political maneuvering in the wake of that event. Characters will need to investigate, unmask, and deal with the conspiracy behind Stavian III's murder.
    Book 4 - Civil War breaks out. Characters will be dealing with assassins and treachery.
    Book 5 - Qadira invades. Characters rush to repulse the invasion (gaining a very powerful position for their faction in the process).
    Book 6 - The now powerful characters win the civil war and either put the head of their faction (or one of themselves) on the throne.

    *** - Needs a plot for Book 2. We don't want "hell to break loose" too early. (PCs would be "courted" by the various factions in this chapter.)

    An interesting option in this would be (as one of the traits) having one of the players be Princess Eutropia. This was pioneered with the Jade Regent (sidebar on page 13 of the Jade Regent Player's Guide).


    DaemonAngel wrote:

    Its suggested in "Qadira: Gateway to the East" that the satrap is looking through all the laws and treaties for any pretext to launch a war with Taldor. That may mean that the Empire at the present isn't interest in potential conquest, so he's trying to "force" a war. All politics being local, Quadira being a provence (and not the richest or most important) of the larger Kelesh Empire maybe a hindrance in itself. The greater empire is awash in prosperity with little external (no Ottoman/Persia rivalry) or internal (rebellious Arabs/Egyptian) threat. The powers that be in the distant capital may not be interested in rocking the boat. Hebizid Vraj, the Imperial Vizier in Qadira is actually working against the satrap's ambition to launch a war.

    As to Galt: its a wild card. Anarchist and violent revolutionaries have long shown themselves to be convenient tools for potential tyrants and Empire builders, so they might team up with Xerbystes II. But that will surely bring in Andoran.

    There is also a certain other wild card that Golarion has that Earth doesn't. One that changes all our speculated out comes. PC Heroes ^_-

    I have not read "Quadira: Gate way to the East" so that changes everything I just said. This means that Taldor won't face any external invasion and the only effect Quadira will have in how Taldans perceive them. After all, they don't know that Quadira will likely not invade again.

    Taldor won't have to worry about Cheliax in the near future as Andoran and Druma stand in their way. Which leaves Galt as the only concern. Galt could either export it's revolutionary spirit to Taldor and weaken it or be invaded by Taldor and strengthen it.

    But yes ultimately the PCs will be the deciding factor otherwise it's just not good storytelling.


    Larkos wrote:
    DaemonAngel wrote:

    Its suggested in "Qadira: Gateway to the East" that the satrap is looking through all the laws and treaties for any pretext to launch a war with Taldor. That may mean that the Empire at the present isn't interest in potential conquest, so he's trying to "force" a war. All politics being local, Quadira being a provence (and not the richest or most important) of the larger Kelesh Empire maybe a hindrance in itself. The greater empire is awash in prosperity with little external (no Ottoman/Persia rivalry) or internal (rebellious Arabs/Egyptian) threat. The powers that be in the distant capital may not be interested in rocking the boat. Hebizid Vraj, the Imperial Vizier in Qadira is actually working against the satrap's ambition to launch a war.

    As to Galt: its a wild card. Anarchist and violent revolutionaries have long shown themselves to be convenient tools for potential tyrants and Empire builders, so they might team up with Xerbystes II. But that will surely bring in Andoran.

    There is also a certain other wild card that Golarion has that Earth doesn't. One that changes all our speculated out comes. PC Heroes ^_-

    I have not read "Quadira: Gate way to the East" so that changes everything I just said. This means that Taldor won't face any external invasion and the only effect Quadira will have in how Taldans perceive them. After all, they don't know that Quadira will likely not invade again.

    Taldor won't have to worry about Cheliax in the near future as Andoran and Druma stand in their way. Which leaves Galt as the only concern. Galt could either export it's revolutionary spirit to Taldor and weaken it or be invaded by Taldor and strengthen it.

    But yes ultimately the PCs will be the deciding factor otherwise it's just not good storytelling.

    Well the situation may change dramatically depending on the Imperial Throne and the personality of the one next in line for it. Often when a sultan of the Ottoman Empire died his heir would(after killing all but one of his brothers) sometimes launch a war to prove his power and dedication. So who knows.

    As for Galt: sooner or later the population will demand a return to order and pay any price to get it. Like embrace the most charismatic "hero the people".


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    It will all be solved when Aroden gets back from the Dark Tapestry, sees how far Cheliax has fallen, and comes home to lead Taldor into the promised Age of Glory...


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    GM Lamplighter wrote:
    It will all be solved when Aroden gets back from the Dark Tapestry, sees how far Cheliax has fallen, and comes home to lead Taldor into the promised Age of Glory...

    Too bad for the world that he'll have been turned to the Dark Side like Zon-Kuthon, thus heralding the era of the Kyton Tyranny upon Golarion! (゚Д゚)


    Assuming that's actually where he is.
    Dude might really be dead.

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