Max legal table


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1/5

A friend of mine would like to show up for tonights game, but our warhorn reflects 6 seats full(yes, no shows could happen). I have heard someone say that 7 players is actually the max players to be allowed in PFS, but it's suggested to keep 6 as the limit.

Is this true, and can anyone assist in finding this out in the PFS rule book? It would great to have our friend play, but the GM might not be comfortable with it unless the rules allow it, and I would like to show it to him if they do indeed exist.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Human, since you are new to PFS I would high recommend downloading and reading the Guide to Organized play. It is going to have a lot of of the basic rules questions new players tend to have. It is also part of the Core Assumption so it is assumed that you know it and have read it.

1/5

Chris, I am not at home right now, and literally on my way to the game. This is a last second thing, and I am looking for someone to assist me in finding an answer. Thank you for the link so I can do this on my own, but I simply cannot do to the current circumstances right now.

If I cannot find an answer shortly then my friend who is also out might not be willing to show up for tonights game.


The rules do allow it if the only alternative is turning someone away.

The original six players are supposed to be asked about it, as seven players can easily overpower the scenarios and leave players without much challenge, or much to do.

Is anyone else in the group able to run the scenario? Because the alternative mentioned to running with seven is have one of the players run as well, and do tables of three players each.

Sczarni

Most places will allow a 7th player instead of sending him/her away. But if any other players show up, a 2nd table will have to be set up in order to not send people home.

A 7th pc is the max a table can have. 3 PCS plus a pregen is the minimum for a table.

1/5

Anyone know where in the guide I can reference that 7 is indeed the max. I think I can find a person with a computer to allow me to download it at the venue, or someone might have a copy on hand I can point to if it does become an issue.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ** Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver

In a situation like that, I would allow 7 people. I don't think its a big deal. I've seen it happen a few times. Technically, you're supposed to split the 7 people into two groups and a GM at each table, but you guys probably don't have two copies of the scenario so just do one table.


Human Fighter wrote:
Anyone know where in the guide I can reference that 7 is indeed the max. I think I can find a person with a computer to allow me to download it at the venue, or someone might have a copy on hand I can point to if it does become an issue.

Page 31, right column "Legal Table Size"

Can you not view pdfs on whatever device you're posting to this thread with?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Under legal table size:

Conversely, if seven players show up to an event,
rather than turning someone away from the campaign
altogether, consider adding a seventh person to the table.
These situations should be extremely rare and should only
be used as a last resort to sending someone home without
the chance to play.

Silver Crusade 5/5

This is of course, up to GM discretion.

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

3 people marked this as a favorite.

and yes you can turn someone away. Ive run a 7 player table, it wasnt a challenge for anyone present. I know we dont like to do it, but this is why we use Warhorn.

The Exchange 5/5

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and I have several times stepped out of a game when it goes to 7 players. I would offer to split it into more than one table - 8 persons would be two tables of 3 players and an Iconic... but even when it means I go home I would not want to force anyone else at the table to play in a 7 person game. This is my choice, but I know several other people who would do the same...

You should mention to the organizer that you are bringing an extra body.... it might save some heartache...

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane

That's great, and assumes that anyone turning up will use Warhorn. We also use Warhorn, but there are several regular players who are either not capable of using it, or refuse to use it, for various reasons, despite being asked to on numerous occasions. So, just about any time we play, it's a crapshoot as to how many tables we will end up running. And the store we run at has a standing policy that everyone who turns up gets a game, every time, without fail. If we have to reorganise the predesignated tables to do so, then so be it.

The Exchange 5/5

YogoZuno wrote:
That's great, and assumes that anyone turning up will use Warhorn. We also use Warhorn, but there are several regular players who are either not capable of using it, or refuse to use it, for various reasons, despite being asked to on numerous occasions. So, just about any time we play, it's a crapshoot as to how many tables we will end up running. And the store we run at has a standing policy that everyone who turns up gets a game, every time, without fail. If we have to reorganise the predesignated tables to do so, then so be it.

Actually, where I game, almost no one signs up on Warhorn.

I know there is games tomorrow at my local shop - there are even two listed in Warhorn - Three is you could the Open Library slot. There are 2 judges signed up ... and zero players. I plan to go out also - as I am sure they will need another judge (more than likely), as they will have 3 to 5 tables ... mostly full.

Grand Lodge 5/5

nosig wrote:
YogoZuno wrote:
That's great, and assumes that anyone turning up will use Warhorn. We also use Warhorn, but there are several regular players who are either not capable of using it, or refuse to use it, for various reasons, despite being asked to on numerous occasions. So, just about any time we play, it's a crapshoot as to how many tables we will end up running. And the store we run at has a standing policy that everyone who turns up gets a game, every time, without fail. If we have to reorganise the predesignated tables to do so, then so be it.

Actually, where I game, almost no one signs up on Warhorn.

I know there is games tomorrow at my local shop - there are even two listed in Warhorn - Three is you could the Open Library slot. There are 2 judges signed up ... and zero players. I plan to go out also - as I am sure they will need another judge (more than likely), as they will have 3 to 5 tables ... mostly full.

Well, it sounds like YogoZuno plays in my area! Full disclosure, I play in the same area as nosig and quite frequently I play at his apartment. The main difference is that it's not a store policy that everyone who shows up gets to play, it is kind of ingrained into the philosophy of almost everyone who plays here. We will dynamically reconfigure what is being run if it means we can seat more (and hopefully all) who show up. If folks signed up in advance though and show up, we try to honor those games.

A few of us GMs do use warhorn but signups are very spotty at best. We will keep trying though.

As for 7 person tables, I leave it up to the players. As a GM, it is all the same to me. But as a player, it means you typically get to contribute less on average.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

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Public gamedays really should use Warhorn to help organise your events.

If players aren't consistently using Wahorn to sign up, try mentioning the signup process at the beginning of each game, or occasionally reminding players on your Facebook group, and even hand out cards with your Facebook group, Warhorn page, and a local PFS organisers contact email address (these could be those of the store you're playing in), so players can't claim ignorance.

Once the policy is in place, players can't complain if they're turned away from a table because it's full - that's what Warhorn is for! They'll soon change their habit and sign up if they're turned away more than once.

Waitlisting helps identify if another table is required. Assign an extra GM before the gameday arrives, if there are enough Waitlisted players to warrant a second table.

In our region, we limit low-tier scenarios [Tier 1-5] table sizes on Warhorn to 5 players max. This way, a spare 6th seat is always available at the GM's discretion for an unexpected new player who might not have signed up on Warhorn yet - because regular players should already know the signup system, but you never want to turn away a new player.

Setting up a Facebook group for your local PFS region is a great way of communicating with your players between gamedays. Contact your local Venture-Captain or Venture-Lieutenant, as there may already be one for your area.

1/5

Haven't had time to read the other responses, but I encouraged my friend to wait list, and by the time I got there, they already had another game open for others to join in on. People they personally know that don't ever use warhorn I suppose said they wanted to play tonight and they had stuff already to go to make room.

Thank you to everyone for the helpful information, which I'm glad I didn't have to use, but I now know where to exactly find it in the future anyways.

5/5 5/55/55/5

This is why you should always have a scenario prepped to go just in case.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane

Good in theory, not always practical - sometimes you just need to run off the cuff, because none of the prepped scenarios can be played by the players available.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Which is exactly why groups should use Warhorn ... everyone knows what to expect before they arrive, and can choose not to sign up if it's a game they've already played.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
YogoZuno wrote:
That's great, and assumes that anyone turning up will use Warhorn. We also use Warhorn, but there are several regular players who are either not capable of using it, or refuse to use it, for various reasons, despite being asked to on numerous occasions. So, just about any time we play, it's a crapshoot as to how many tables we will end up running. And the store we run at has a standing policy that everyone who turns up gets a game, every time, without fail. If we have to reorganise the predesignated tables to do so, then so be it.

What you should say to those players, is that you will be giving priority seating to those that DO the signups. Seven is the absolute legal limit for PFS tables.

The Exchange 5/5

Stephen White wrote:
Which is exactly why groups should use Warhorn ... everyone knows what to expect before they arrive, and can choose not to sign up if it's a game they've already played.

ok. but some places this just does not happen.

We do it different in my home town:

Everyone should brush their teeth 3 times a day, should drive 55, should respect their elders, ... should stay off my lawn!, but it just isn't going to happen. And pre-sign-ups just don't work in St. Louis.

In my home town "... everyone knows what to expect before they arrive..." - they expect they will be seated at a game they can play. Everyone. Every time.

Tonight, on a Tuesday night, I know there will be at least 3 full tables, maybe 5 or 6. And the current listing in Warhorn has two tables listed (and the Open Library listing), and those have a judge signed up. No players, just one judge - and he's the same buy listed for both tables. And I know there will be at least 3 full tables tonight (maybe not the games listed though).

Tomorrow, on a Wednesday, it is the same, except maybe one fewer table, as there is a home game that runs and grabs one of the tables of players...

I know if I sign up, I might be able to play at one of those tables... if enough other players haven't played them. If the game runs. But it is more likely that those games will not run, that I will play something else, or run a table...

It is sort of a standing joke with my friends at the shop, that if I prep to run something (3 to 6 things normally), I end up playing. If I go planning to play, I run something... happens 4 of 5 times that way.

But you know what? everyone plays, every time. Even the guy who arrived 5 minutes late, because he didn't expect to be there, he had other plans fall thru, and suddenly had a week night free...

That's the way PFS runs in my home town.

The Exchange 5/5

LazarX wrote:
YogoZuno wrote:
That's great, and assumes that anyone turning up will use Warhorn. We also use Warhorn, but there are several regular players who are either not capable of using it, or refuse to use it, for various reasons, despite being asked to on numerous occasions. So, just about any time we play, it's a crapshoot as to how many tables we will end up running. And the store we run at has a standing policy that everyone who turns up gets a game, every time, without fail. If we have to reorganise the predesignated tables to do so, then so be it.
What you should say to those players, is that you will be giving priority seating to those that DO the signups. Seven is the absolute legal limit for PFS tables.

In other words, we say...

"If you don't signup - you might get sent home with no game."

Is that correct?

You send people away?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Stephen White wrote:
Which is exactly why groups should use Warhorn ... everyone knows what to expect before they arrive, and can choose not to sign up if it's a game they've already played.

Agreed.

I think that walkins should never be a reason to run something cold.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

nosig wrote:
LazarX wrote:
YogoZuno wrote:
That's great, and assumes that anyone turning up will use Warhorn. We also use Warhorn, but there are several regular players who are either not capable of using it, or refuse to use it, for various reasons, despite being asked to on numerous occasions. So, just about any time we play, it's a crapshoot as to how many tables we will end up running. And the store we run at has a standing policy that everyone who turns up gets a game, every time, without fail. If we have to reorganise the predesignated tables to do so, then so be it.
What you should say to those players, is that you will be giving priority seating to those that DO the signups. Seven is the absolute legal limit for PFS tables.

In other words, we say...

"If you don't signup - you might get sent home with no game."

Is that correct?

You send people away?

Yes. We have a very good word of mouth here. It is rare that we have someone show up out of the blue with no idea that we gave an RSVP system. The stores we run at, and our fliers all explain how to RSVP.

Additionally we don't have unlimited seating capacity. In some stores if we schedule 2 tables, that's what the store can handle.

Walkins wouldn't get to play even if we had another willing to GM on the spot.

Shadow Lodge *

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Stephen White wrote:
Which is exactly why groups should use Warhorn ... everyone knows what to expect before they arrive, and can choose not to sign up if it's a game they've already played.

Agreed.

I think that walkins should never be a reason to run something cold.

We rotate having a backup GM ready to run The Confirmation in case we have truly new players walk in. But other than that I agree.

We've also just about hit our limit on physical space and competent GMs. We're building the GM pool as fast as we can, but it takes time. (We doubled our player base from two tables to four in about six weeks. So we're still figuring out how to deal with success.)

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

nosig wrote:


In other words, we say...

"If you don't signup - you might get sent home with no game."

Is that correct?

You send people away?

Yes. We'll try hard to accommodate people, especially new players, but we make no guarantees.

That said, I am pretty sure that we have NEVER turned away a new player who wanted to play. And its very rare to turn away other players. What DOES sometimes happen is that a player will end up at the "wrong" table with a pregen. Or we have a 7 person table on occasion.

Players know to sign up. Makes life better for EVERYBODY.

4/5

nosig wrote:

In other words, we say...

"If you don't signup - you might get sent home with no game."

Is that correct?

You send people away?

Unfortunately, sometimes everyone that you have as a player doesn't GM, and extra people show up, and you have to turn them away. If people don't GM, we simply can't have things like 9 person tables. Almost always, it ends up we can accommodate, but the slots can't be guaranteed (which is what we tell the people who just show up...one day, it'll happen, and it's completely their fault).

If it's not their first time and they've been told about how to sign up, I find it rather rude that a person would refuse to use the pre-sign up service. GMs and players take time out of their day to play the scenarios that they signed up for, and GMs especially prep the scenarios beforehand, and it's rude to them to say "Well, it's more important that I play even though I refuse to do a simple sign up and make everyone's life a whole lot easier." Of course, if it's a physical problem or technical problem (such as limited access to internet), then it's excusable, but I don't think we've had one yet where that is the case.

...at least, that's how it works around here. Basically everyone here signs up, though, and when they do that, we can even schedule more GMs to accommodate ahead of time for those that won't initially fit!

If it's their first time, though, we will definitely give them leeway, but then are sure to tell them about how to pre-sign up.

The Exchange 5/5

pauljathome wrote:
nosig wrote:


In other words, we say...

"If you don't signup - you might get sent home with no game."

Is that correct?

You send people away?

Yes. We'll try hard to accommodate people, especially new players, but we make no guarantees.

That said, I am pretty sure that we have NEVER turned away a new player who wanted to play. And its very rare to turn away other players. What DOES sometimes happen is that a player will end up at the "wrong" table with a pregen. Or we have a 7 person table on occasion.

Players know to sign up. Makes life better for EVERYBODY.

Thanks pauljathome! It's always nice to hear how it works in the "real world"... :-)

I'm glad to hear that new players are not turned away... that would be my biggest fear.

Can I ask, what does "...the "wrong" table with with a pregren." mean? ...at a higher level table with a 4th or 7th level pregen?

The Exchange 5/5

Andrew Roberts wrote:
nosig wrote:

In other words, we say...

"If you don't signup - you might get sent home with no game."

Is that correct?

You send people away?

Unfortunately, sometimes everyone that you have as a player doesn't GM, and extra people show up, and you have to turn them away. If people don't GM, we simply can't have things like 9 person tables. Almost always, it ends up we can accommodate, but the slots can't be guaranteed (which is what we tell the people who just show up...one day, it'll happen, and it's completely their fault).

If it's not their first time and they've been told about how to sign up, I find it rather rude that a person would refuse to use the pre-sign up service. GMs and players take time out of their day to play the scenarios that they signed up for, and GMs especially prep the scenarios beforehand, and it's rude to them to say "Well, it's more important that I play even though I refuse to do a simple sign up and make everyone's life a whole lot easier." Of course, if it's a physical problem or technical problem (such as limited access to internet), then it's excusable, but I don't think we've had one yet where that is the case.

...at least, that's how it works around here. Basically everyone here signs up, though, and when they do that, we can even schedule more GMs to accommodate ahead of time for those that won't initially fit!

If it's their first time, though, we will definitely give them leeway, but then are sure to tell them about how to pre-sign up.

Different places, different ways... and it all works out.

I do find it surprising "...sometimes everyone that you have as a player doesn't GM, and extra people show up, and you have to turn them away. ...". Your ratio of Judges to Players sometimes is less than 1 in 7? wow... where I game sometimes we have tables of just judges. In fact, the only time we really seem to have a shortage of judges is when one of the home games is running and most of the potential judges are at that table.

I expect to drop in to the shop tonight, and if there is a table needing a judge (maybe) I plan to run. I'll show up with a number of scenarios in my car (6 to 8), and might even run one of those. (or, as I am going planning to run, maybe I'll end up playing in a game of First Steps or Confermation - as I have a new PC who needs one of those). That is, unless something prevents me from showing up at the shop. Or I may just say "Hi" and head on home. But I'm kind of selective on what I play anymore, and mostly I'm going up to see if they need a judge (and to see friends, and check out the new toys at the shop).

And tomorrow, I expect to do the same thing... But my other plans for this week canceled and now I find I have both nights free. So, I'll go game.

4/5

It depends. A lot of our players are starting to pick up their GMing chops now, but we had a phase where it was a ton of people that were newer and didn't GM yet. It has since balanced out again, and probably will become GM-heavy within the next month, as I've heard TONS of people talking to me wanting to start to GM.

But yes, usually we don't have people who just "drop by." We have a ton of traffic here and gamedays scattered all over the place with people potentially having to drive some distance to get there, so "dropping by" isn't a thing that can so easily happen. :p Hence, we are very pre-sign-up heavy.

2/5

Andrew Roberts wrote:
... I've heard TONS of people talking to me wanting to start to GM.

Hey, I represent that remark! [jackd waves to Andrew]

A quick comment on 7-person tables: One of the most challenging and ultimately unsuccessful games I've played had 7 of us. Problem was our character levels were something like 5, 4, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1 and the player experience levels were very similar. We would have ROFLstomped Tier 1-2, but were under-equipped as players and characters for Tier 4-5.

Relative power levels aside, big tables are slow by nature, and big tables with newbies can be very slow, which makes things less fun and causes scheduling problems in limited time slots. Like the rules say, if it comes down to a big table or turning people away, PFS GMs should lean toward trying the former.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
Which is exactly why groups should use Warhorn
Quote:
...some places this just does not happen

Despite being off-topic of the OP, I wanted to comment on this. Why do players feel it is appropriate to disrespect the efforts of the organizer to provide them a good experience? Why do organizers tolerate and passively encourage bad behavior?

If your area has a pre-registration system in place (warhorn, facebook, etc.) then it should be used by everyone. Organizing is a hard job, especially with larger groups or frequent sessions. The registration system is the only way the organizer will know who is coming and what they can/want to play. GMs need to be identified, table count, etc. GM's are a great group, but even the nicest doesn't like to spend hours prepping only to see their table not make. Nor do they like to be blindsided by having to run a table cold either because they planned to play and had to GM do to extra players or having to run something other than what they prepped.

Players wanna play, but they have to respect the efforts of the GM/organizer to do their "job". As an organizer, yes I have turned a few players away. Not noobs mind you. There has been occurrences where a player refused, for whatever reason, to participate in the prereg process. After numerous warnings (and accommodations), I refused to sit them and sent them home. In all but one case, the player began to use the system after that, and in that one case, the player was sooo unreasonable, they were "good" loss to our community.

New players are a special case assuming they are not accompanying an existing player. They should be afforded some leeway until they understand the expectations.

All I'm saying is that everyone has a responsibility to help make the Gameday the best it can be and that doesn't just mean having your butt in a seat like we should treat it as some sort of honor to have you there.

The Exchange 5/5

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I think it all depends on the gamer culture in the area. Some areas have a strong independent streak in them and can be downright contrary when someone suggests they do it different. Some areas are ripe for an organizer to come in and give them guidance. Some areas have so much organization they have created an actual club with a board, meetings and dues.

When I read about what I perceive as a lack of leadership in an area, it just makes me grateful for my own region. I recognize that if you try and force a system on a relaxed culture they will likely revolt (see Boiling Frog metaphor), but if you allow them to make the changes in their own time it bears a better chance of success. What you need to get started is leadership with vision.

It has been said before and bears saying again, we live and die by Warhorn.

3/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I understand the one-time willingness to run 7-player tables, back when PFS was in growth mode. That said, I've maintained for some time that it's important to recognize the point at which an organized play campaign needs to shift from growth of playerbase to growth of play experience; a 7-player table greatly undermines play experience.

I won't run a 7-player table, and if I'm sitting at a table and a GM adds a 7th player, I'll leave that table; the only option with 7 players should be to divide into two 3-player tables, with one of the players GMing, and run pre-gens.

I'd love to see 3-6 players become a hard-and-fast rule so that 7-player tables are no longer an arguable option.

4/5 5/5 ***

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I've started to use Warhorn for my area's gamers as an experiment, and yes, I can sense it'll be a hard change for most of the players.

For the past year, I use to just throw tables together--it worked well, mostly. Having used GroupMe messaging and Facebook pages to get information out there, I think that using Warhorn, I can track interest and I can get better feedback on what we're doing since I can see sign ups easily.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

nosig wrote:

I'm glad to hear that new players are not turned away... that would be my biggest fear.

Can I ask, what does "...the "wrong" table with with a pregren." mean? ...at a higher level table with a 4th or 7th level pregen?

They don't get to play their own character. Usually this means they're playing at a higher tier but occasionally it means they're at a lower table.

With new players we'll almost always get them into the low tier table. Experienced players are very good at switching tables to accommodate the newby. Very rarely that doesn't work and the new player will end up with a higher level pregens. Not ideal, of course. But I do give absolute priority to the people who sign up if they wish to exercise that right.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

nosig wrote:

Different places, different ways... and it all works out.

One significant difference is that our sites are downtown in a city with good public transit and bad driving conditions (Toronto). Almost everybody takes public transit. That makes having emergency GM supplies with you a significantly greater pain than having them in the car.

The Exchange 5/5

pauljathome wrote:
nosig wrote:

Different places, different ways... and it all works out.

One significant difference is that our sites are downtown in a city with good public transit and bad driving conditions (Toronto). Almost everybody takes public transit. That makes having emergency GM supplies with you a significantly greater pain than having them in the car.

LOL! it would make having the correct PC a real issue for me! My PCs take a hefty box just by themselves (I have 15 now, and growing), not counting other things.

But yeah, I can see that. I show up with a file box of Flipmats, and a bunch of map tubes and still seem to always have something at home that would have been great to have at the game.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane

Quote:
Despite being off-topic of the OP, I wanted to comment on this. Why do players feel it is appropriate to disrespect the efforts of the organizer to provide them a good experience? Why do organizers tolerate and passively encourage bad behavior?

Not all players place the same amount of value on the organisation required. A number of players I have seen just take it for granted that a game will be available, and they will be able to play in the way they want, regardless of notice. I've even seen a couple sulk when told they can't. Other players just aren't organised well enough themselves to commit to a game more than a few hours beforehand.

As a sometimes-organiser, I still try and accommodate everybody, no matter how badly they behave. Just because they act poorly doesn't mean I have to.

Quote:
I'd love to see 3-6 players become a hard-and-fast rule so that 7-player tables are no longer an arguable option.

I totally disagree. A table of GM and 3 players can often be quite unsatisfying, especially if playing a later-season scenario with higher difficulty. The option to be able to play under one prepared GM is much more flexible.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I hear you yogozuno, but remember that requiring certain organizational things and not letting others get away with bad habits, is not acting poorly.

I think many would agree that doing so is actually good for your community.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed some posts. This is probably not best handled on our messageboards, and probably should be discussed via email/private message.

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