Confusion around the term 'Guild'


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan, Lee, Stephen or someone.

From my correspondences so far it seems as though the confusion around the term guild is pretty bad.

The problem I am seeing arises from the, vast majority of, population that backed KS2 and then went off the grid. Last they heard, guild was a backer level that appealed to player groups, be it gaming groups, clans or those that called themselves guilds. It assured them reservation of their guild name. It was a 1:1 correlation between groups of players and the PFO organization they would have. It did not mean settlement name, nor coalition of companies backing a settlement.

Fast-forward a year and a half. You just sent out updates which, by the reactions I am getting, did nothing to explain the terminology shift in the Paizo community. While the same shift occurred over the course of several blogs, it also seems to have not made the desired impact. Efforts towards this shift were decidedly sabotaged when GW casually started referring to guilds again in the same posts that these returning players were referred to. No explanation that the term guild now meant something entirely different, nor what that meaning now was, and that this meaning would only apply to the landrush itself.

Please do something about clearing up this confusion. Players have no sense that there should be anything other than 180+ separate groups all vying for their own settlements, many of which have just a bare handful of players. They have no reason to believe that banding together will not cost them their guild, which we now refer to as company. You are looking at a near complete lack of collaboration at this juncture.

I could very well be shooting myself in the foot here, but it is a crucial piece of information that the majority of the community is missing out on to really make the landrush an exciting thing.

CEO, Goblinworks

Yes, it's terribad.

It is unfortunately the least terribad of several terribad options.

The confusion will dissipate when the game is playable. Just like there's no real confusion in EVE about "where the Guilds at?" anymore.

We'll let Guilds reserve a name that will be used for a Company. Some people who may have access to a Settlement will be given the option to chose to apply that name to the Settlement instead. It will all work itself out fine in the end.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

IMO the biggest problem is that there is absolutely no communication mechanism around the land rush guilds. No way for guilds to contact each other. Indeed, no way even for guild members to talk to each other. How do you coordinate a guild merger when you can't talk to the other guilds? If you somehow do manage it, how do you tell your members what guild to vote for when you can't communicate with them either?

Yes, there is confusion over what 'guild' means... and many other things. However, it seems unlikely that Goblinworks will be able to explain all these things sufficiently for everyone in a single e-mail or blog. Hence my view that some means of communication needs to be established for the land rush guilds. At that point WE could explain everything that they have missed.

Goblin Squad Member

Quote:
How do you coordinate a guild merger when you can't talk to the other guilds? If you somehow do manage it, how do you tell your members what guild to vote for when you can't communicate with them either?

Agreed. We have to have one of our members apply to a guild just to find contact information for their leader. Not exactly optimal.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Gol Morbis wrote:
Agreed. We have to have one of our members apply to a guild just to find contact information for their leader. Not exactly optimal.

Huh. I hadn't even realized that members/applicants had a way to contact the founder. Well that's something at least.

Goblin Squad Member

They don't. You find out the leaders username, and then hope.

Goblin Squad Member

I completely agree with the statements above.

I know a big focus right now is to migrate everyone's account over to goblinworks.com, among other tasks (e.g. Alpha readiness), but the guild/company/settlement confusion REALLY needs to be summed up.

I would even say to go as far as explaining it in a kickstarter email... Or something equivalent. Like an FAQ.

When we first created our guild on the LR2, we were confused a bit about how everything will come into play (e.g. multiple companies to a settlement, etc.).

Which, by the way, can anyone pinpoint a quote or a blog post somewhere that describes the mechanics in which two or more companies within a settlement will interact with eachother? Such as... will we have separate buildings (like guildhouses)? Will the founder of the settlement be in full control over all of it?

We're one of those smaller guilds that are on the fence about trying to recruit more people (individuals or companies), or to abandon ship and filter-in with the "big guys" and just join their settlement(s). So really, any functional information right now would be nice.

*ramble, ramble*

CEO, Goblinworks

@Aou:

There will be no guilds in the game. So that's easy.

Some people will have reservation rights for a guild name. We'll let them use that right to reserve the name of a company. Some of those people may also have the right to found an initial Settlement and if they want to reserve that name instead, that's ok too.

In game, parties are ad hoc creations of player characters. They have no persistent existence.

Companies are a step up. They have persistence: a name and probably a mechanism to receive mail sent to a company address. They will likely have access to some shared storage, although how that will work is completely tbd.

Settlements are a step up. They have a physical representation in the game as well as a social aspect. They will be founded by Companies (except the first ones which are founded by fiat). Settlements will have relationships with Companies to create webs of value that link Settlements to Points of Interest and Points of Interests to Outposts.

Player Nations are a step up. They don't have a physical representation in the game but being a member of one will increase the options Settlements have to create or advance structures in the Settlement. Certain characters will have abilities that are only meaningful in the context of Player Nation activities. Some large scale objects may only be created or operated by Player Nations.

CEO, Goblinworks

CBDunkerson wrote:
IMO the biggest problem is that there is absolutely no communication mechanism around the land rush guilds.

You know what I would do?

I'd click the link listed for each Guild I wanted to communicate with that they provided when they signed up. Maybe that link, if I were running the Guild, would take me to a place with contact info for the Guild.

But that's just me.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

You know what I would do?

I'd click the link listed for each Guild I wanted to communicate with that they provided when they signed up. Maybe that link, if I were running the Guild, would take me to a place with contact info for the Guild.

But that's just me.

Yes, that works sometimes. However, the web site link is optional. About half the guilds don't have one... and several of those that do don't have a way to communicate on their site.

Goblin Squad Member

Can a Company that founds a Settlement also claim a POI?

CEO, Goblinworks

@Ravenlute SBC_Prophecy_ - Tork is really the expert on these matters but my sense is "yes". A company, once it founds a Settlement, doesn't cease to exist. The Settlement comes into existence as an operation of the Company's activities, but at that point they have separate destinies.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Ravenlute SBC_Prophecy_ - Tork is really the expert on these matters but my sense is "yes". A company, once it founds a Settlement, doesn't cease to exist. The Settlement comes into existence as an operation of the Company's activities, but at that point they have separate destinies.

Good to hear, I've been wondering on that for a bit.

Goblinworks Game Designer

Ryan Dancey wrote:
@Ravenlute SBC_Prophecy_ - Tork is really the expert on these matters but my sense is "yes". A company, once it founds a Settlement, doesn't cease to exist. The Settlement comes into existence as an operation of the Company's activities, but at that point they have separate destinies.

This is true! A company continues to exist even when they own a settlement. This allows for the unfortunate/inevitable destruction of a settlement without the collapse of the organisation who originally founded it.

The founding company can, if they wish, continue to operate as a standard company, grabbing other PoIs/Outposts and such. There are limitations on Influence for all Companies, however, so no Company will be able to hold all that much stuff, no matter how large they are.

With the maths as they currently its pretty much possible for a company to manage 1 PoI and maybe 2/3 outposts to a high standard, or maybe 2 PoI's to a pretty ropey standard. Settlement ownership will factor in somewhere but...

The influence spent to found the settlement in the first place is also most likely going to be 'set aside' during that process, further limiting a Companies ability to snatch up extra holdings. I'm still playing with the maths on that.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

The confusion will dissipate when the game is playable. Just like there's no real confusion in EVE about "where the Guilds at?" anymore.

EVE, is not in the middle of a landrush which bandies the term guild about in conflict with earlier definition.

I am asking that you place a small statement of intent and re-definition of the term guild at the top of the landrush landing page.

Let players know what a guild is, that it is a temporary thing and that they can feel free to work together without compromising their company.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Would "Federated Companies for the purpose of setting up a settlement" be a better term instead of Guild? Or something along that line?

Darcnes wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:

The confusion will dissipate when the game is playable. Just like there's no real confusion in EVE about "where the Guilds at?" anymore.

EVE, is not in the middle of a landrush which bandies the term guild about in conflict with earlier definition.

I am asking that you place a small statement of intent and re-definition of the term guild at the top of the landrush landing page.

Let players know what a guild is, that it is a temporary thing and that they can feel free to work together without compromising their company.

Goblin Squad Member

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That ship has probably sailed, it would not hurt my feelings if they were willing to change the term to settlement alliance or some such. Whether they do or not, there needs to be an explanation of term and intent clearly posted on the land rush landing page.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
IMO the biggest problem is that there is absolutely no communication mechanism around the land rush guilds.

You know what I would do?

I'd click the link listed for each Guild I wanted to communicate with that they provided when they signed up. Maybe that link, if I were running the Guild, would take me to a place with contact info for the Guild.

But that's just me.

That will not help you with entries like this: No description, no useful link to website, just a "funny" name. Not that I would ever want to contact a "Guild" like that but still.

There are actually quit a few like that, as CBDunkerson mentioned. I would expect entries that do not provide a Description and a working link to some website or contactadress to not be approved by GW.

But that's just me.....

:) (smiley to take edge off post)

Goblin Squad Member

I checked the first page of the Guild Index(there are 6 pages) and on that single page were the following entries that do not have a working link or way to contact the founder:

https://www.goblinworks.com/landrush/guild/46
https://www.goblinworks.com/landrush/guild/24
https://www.goblinworks.com/landrush/guild/88
https://www.goblinworks.com/landrush/guild/38
https://www.goblinworks.com/landrush/guild/66
https://www.goblinworks.com/landrush/guild/58
https://www.goblinworks.com/landrush/guild/34

That is 7 out of 15 entries on the first page alone with no way to contact them. Also some of their descriptions (if any) make it glaringly obvious that they have no clue what their entry means. ("We are a small family and friends Guild", period)

I think entries like these should be bounced back to the founder by Lee or Ryan before being admitted, with an explanation what the Landrush is all about. That would cut short a lot of misery later on. On the Guild creation page it reads this:

Quote:
All guild must be approved by Goblinworks Staff before being allowed to participate in the Land Rush.

I have a feeling that this is not really working as intended with entries like in my post above this one.

In defense of GW and Ryan: if people would actually *read* the emails they get sent by GW, and follow the links they provide and read those too, then they would know what this is all about. I think the header above the Guild creation page should emphasize the need to fill in any contact adress or website though, in big, bold lettering. I also agree with Darcnes that that is the place to put up a short reminder of what they are actually signing up for(Settlement, NOT guild).

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Tyncale wrote:

But that's just me.....

:) (smiley to take edge off post)

Edge? I'm choosing to not have heard an edge, in any of the posts. Tiredness and stress can make us all a little cranky.

I've been thinking about Morbis' note above about being able to get the Goblinworks username of each founder by applying and then immediately withdrawing from a guild. Would it make sense for me to gather the names of all the founders, check to see if there are corresponding usernames here on paizo.com, and post a list? The information technically IS available... you just need to work for it a little. Which is... odd. One of the things you want to know before supporting a settlement is who is actually going to be handed the keys to the place. In the long run that is the ONLY direct outcome of the land rush... each guild founder gets control of a settlement. Indirectly it also serves as advertising, but the settlements received by the founders are the real point. A list would also make communication between guilds easier... providing a particular founder can be matched to a paizo.com account.

Goblin Squad Member

CBDunkerson wrote:
Tyncale wrote:

But that's just me.....

:) (smiley to take edge off post)

Edge? I'm choosing to not have heard an edge, in any of the posts. Tiredness and stress can make us all a little cranky.

I've been thinking about Morbis' note above about being able to get the Goblinworks username of each founder by applying and then immediately withdrawing from a guild. Would it make sense for me to gather the names of all the founders, check to see if there are corresponding usernames here on paizo.com, and post a list? The information technically IS available... you just need to work for it a little. Which is... odd. One of the things you want to know before supporting a settlement is who is actually going to be handed the keys to the place. In the long run that is the ONLY direct outcome of the land rush... each guild founder gets control of a settlement. Indirectly it also serves as advertising, but the settlements received by the founders are the real point. A list would also make communication between guilds easier... providing a particular founder can be matched to a paizo.com account.

Sounds like a good idea, CB. I made a post with another proposoal for the smaller guilds that would fit right with your intention of getting their contact information. It is in the thread Cheatle made, you posted there too. Basically, round up smaller guilds in a thread where they forge alliances/merges, keep bumping that thread and keep the opening post updated with any merges.

Goblin Squad Member

It would go a long way to helping this problem out if the founders username was auto-posted in the settlement info. Even more to have PM capability on the GW site but it's really bare bones at the moment and likely not a priority.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Right, so we cobble together something ourselves as best we can. I think we have the makings of a plan. Collected info on guilds that say they are open to merging + list of contact info for guild founders + thread to hold discussions.

Grand Lodge

CBDunkerson wrote:
Right, so we cobble together something ourselves as best we can. I think we have the makings of a plan. Collected info on guilds that say they are open to merging + list of contact info for guild founders + thread to hold discussions.

Yuuup, it's really fun hunting down all the interested parties, and seeing which ones respond or are just afk.

Goblin Squad Member

Please remember, when attempting to contact folks the next three days, that it's a holiday weekend in the US, so there'll be plenty of people not on the boards for a bit.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Please remember, when attempting to contact folks the next three days, that it's a holiday weekend in the US, so there'll be plenty of people not on the boards for a bit.

That should be not a problem at all.

Goblin Squad Member

CBDunkerson wrote:
Right, so we cobble together something ourselves as best we can. I think we have the makings of a plan. Collected info on guilds that say they are open to merging + list of contact info for guild founders + thread to hold discussions.

A slight modification if I might ask it of you. Collect info on guilds, period. All of 'em that'll give you the time of day.

Please, and thank you.

Goblin Squad Member

I would like to provide a word if caution. I agree that the founder of each guild should be visible, but there is a reason for the anonymity of its members. One that several people have expressed a desire to see respected.

It should also be noted that while this is the only recourse GW has left us in reaching out to many, I urge you to do so responsibly.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Sentath of Fidelis wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
Right, so we cobble together something ourselves as best we can. I think we have the makings of a plan. Collected info on guilds that say they are open to merging + list of contact info for guild founders + thread to hold discussions.

A slight modification if I might ask it of you. Collect info on guilds, period. All of 'em that'll give you the time of day.

Please, and thank you.

Yes, the intent was to collect info on all of the guilds... those that were interested in merging was just a particular aspect of information.

Unfortunately, it turns out that you can't get the name of a guild founder by applying to the guild. I had a friend check and they didn't receive the 'Guild roster' link which has the founders name on it. You only get that after you are accepted to the guild. Thus, short of spending weeks applying, being accepted, and then abandoning each guild in turn... there is no way to gather contact information for all the founders unless they choose to participate here on the messageboards. Which a majority are not.

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