The name should say it all, but the crux of the matter comes down to this:
Wish always has a 25k gp cost, but lists a greater range of abilities with more restrictions on each one.
Miracle only has a cost for certain uses, but can conceivably do the same things as Wish given the broader range of spells available.
So which is more powerful, Wish or Miracle?
wish is definately more powerful, you have more variety and 8th level wizard spells are probably better than 8th level cleric spells.
but my hate for costly material components tells me to pick miracle anyway. just make sure not to displease your deity with badly chosen miracles.
Gate. You drop 10,000 gp to call a solar under your control. The solar then pops miracle and a material component free wish, 1/day each.
As for which is actually stronger...not sure. They're about on par. The 8th level cleric and 8th level wizard spells are both kinda situational, and both have summon monster VIII, and some other nice stuff. Both can drop 7th level spells, which means stuff like limited wish from either side.
I think Miracle is more convenient, since you don't need the material component. Makes miracle suitable for allowing clerics to limited wish bomb enemies for that -7 to saving throws (the cleric just has to foot the usual 1500 gp component).
EDIT: Though clerics are better at controlling solars. A lesser necklace of prayer beads can let a cleric control up to a 24 HD creature (25 with ioun stone). The wizard can hit 21 HD via ioun stone, but needs another +1 bump to CL from something to successfully control a solar, which means the wizard has to go:
"Great solar from beyond the realm, we need your aid..." and make a fair case. If the solar doesn't dig it, then the solar can just ignore you. Clerics can be solar bosses. :P
That cleric probably won't survive having his way with a solar for long, though.
Ashiel,
also strand of prayer beads only boosts you CL for 10 minutes. Afterwards, you no longer can control the solar. And it will probably be pissed.
Wish is defonately more powerful but its limiting factor of components makes miracle better.
One other thing worth noting is that most GM's won't try to twist your miracle like they would with a wish but miracle is a spell that as a gm i've found the most reasons take the part of the diety and say no.
If your miracle goes off it goes off perfectly but if your asking god to do things you could just do for yourself then he will just not grant your miracle. (Find the bad guy? He's not a threat for months, find him yourself. Clerics today getting lazy, back in my day...)
Ashiel,
also strand of prayer beads only boosts you CL for 10 minutes. Afterwards, you no longer can control the solar. And it will probably be pissed.
You would need a solar for more than 10 minutes why?
spell specialization gives a nice little +2 to caster level for one spell. of course, with this solar then one spell is all you need...
spell specialization gives a nice little +2 to caster level for one spell. of course, with this solar then one spell is all you need...
That'll do. :)
wish if your link to your deity is rather vague and your request a bit more selfish or not in total support of the deities ideals.
miracle should be stronger if you wish outside of the box for something that your deity should really like
You would need a solar for more than 10 minutes why?
Well with "a wish 1/day" you kind of implied longer service.
Anway, having just carefully read the spell description again, a price must be paid to the creature even if you can control it. The wording is vague.
This use of the spell has a material cost of 10,000 gp in rare incense and offerings. This cost is in addition to any cost that must be paid to the called creatures.
[...]
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards.
A casting of wish arguably could be judged as "more involved" by the DM, who then could set any desired amount of gold as "fair trade" - in my game that would be the difference between the cost of casting wish and calling a creature via gate, preventing the abuse of the spell to get cheap wishes.
Well with "a wish 1/day" you kind of implied longer service.
Did I? I'm pretty sure I said they have wish and miracle 1/day. I don't see how I implied longer service by noting that they can cast both spells 1/day.
Anway, having just carefully read the spell description again, a price must be paid to the creature even if you can control it. The wording is vague.
Not really. I think you're seriously trying to twist the wording here. In your very own quote, it says for longer more involved services. Simply calling the creature for the duration of the spell does not longer or more involved service make. Also, charging to use their spell-like abilities also seems highly suspect and would raise quite a few eyebrows around my group if you tried to suggest that using their spell like abilities during the duration of that summon accounted for "longer or more involved service". I don't even see how one can make that stretch.
It would be as easy to say blue is red.
But seriously, you can get unlimited wishes as early as 13th level via planar binding and efreeti. There's nothing to see here that's particularly special. The biggest advantage that we have with wish/miracle/gate is the on-demand aspect. It's not really practical to draw up a magic circle to call up your friend Carl the Genie in the middle of an adventure, and certainly not in the middle of a battle; but a cleric can pop a gate and poop out another 20th level cleric complete with 1/day wishes, mass heal, and a few dozen other really sexy spells and abilities; and that's just for pure support. Not even getting down to the fact the solar is also a 22nd level martial character with a +5 dancing greantsword and +5 composite +9 strength bonus bow with unlimited arrows of slaying.
*yawns*
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To the original question:
Ummm..... Yes.
Actually-- which is more powerful? Depends on the GM, the imagination and application of the player, and how appropriate/applicable/allowable the requested effect is in the particular campaign.
Miracle, has a few limits (and advantages):
First, if you're using the "duplicate existing spells" effects:
When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.
Second, the 'Miracle' spell can be used as follows:
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 25,000 gp in powdered diamond because of the powerful divine energies involved.
It gives a few examples. It gives a cost. It gives the most important limitation (and non-limitation, depending on what you're trying to do):
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.
Seems to me the implication is clear-- on the upper-end, "very powerful effect" request line, the miracle is as expensive as the Wish, but there really isn't much you can do with a Wish that you couldn't do with a 'Miracle'... so long as your Deity supports what you're trying to do... (if your Deity really supports what you're trying to do, the 'Miracle' may be more powerful than the 'Wish'). Big advantage to the 'Miracle': You are calling on your Deity for aid. Unlike the legendary issues with Wishes being enforced to the letter of the request, not necessarily the spirit, with a 'Miracle' your Deity will grant the miracle based on your intent and not twist the wording, or just not grant it at all (unless the GM is just unnecessarily being an a**hat for some reason-- or your Deity is Asmodeus or some other evil and-or trickster God, in which case, Cleric, when you spend your diamond remember the warning, caveat emptor).
Wish has some limits
Now Wish, always costs a 25,000 GP Diamond. One limitation is that it's not just 25,000 GP-- it's a 25,000 GP Diamond, and those probably aren't common at all (may be a little hard to get your spell component for this one-- same limit applies to the powerful request option of 'Miracle', but not to 'Miracle' as a spell-duplicator). IMO, unless ultimate diamonds just grow on trees in your world, this makes 'Wish' a really poor spell (except in real, drastic emergencies) to use for simply 'spoofing' a lower level spell from any class. I think a reasonable GM will point out the rarity of such diamonds, and limit your ability to cast 'Wish' indiscriminately on that basis (without being unreasonable to the players at all by doing so).
Wish also imposes extra cost if you're using it to spoof a really powerful spell (most spells probably won't get anywhere near this cost threshhold):
When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 25,000 gp diamond component for this spell).
Third problem with Wish (if you're using the clause allowing you to use Wish for more powerful effects than the standard ones):
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)
Big advantages to 'Wish': the standard effects for 'Wish' go beyond the standard effects possible with 'Miracle' (to do some of those with 'Miracle' already puts you into the 'powerful effects' clause) and 'Wish' does not depend on the approval of your Deity (useful for your own selfish puproses, whereas your Deity may decide you just don't get the miracle because it doesn't suit your Deity's purposes-- however, note that powerful 'wishes' are subject to twisting and backfiring, whereas 'miracles' usually aren't).
Ultimately-- which is more powerful? I'd say it really depends much more on the player/character using the spell, and what he/she is trying to accomplish-- what is he/she trying to do with the wish? I think that matters much more than trying to balance out 'the numbers' to define power in mechanical terms.... these are both very open-ended spells.
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But seriously, you can get unlimited wishes as early as 13th level via planar binding and efreeti. There's nothing to see here that's particularly special. The biggest advantage that we have with wish/miracle/gate is the on-demand aspect. It's not really practical to draw up a magic circle to call up your friend Carl the Genie in the middle of an adventure, and certainly not in the middle of a battle; but a cleric can pop a gate and poop out another 20th level cleric complete with 1/day wishes, mass heal, and a few dozen other really sexy spells and abilities; and that's just for pure support. Not even getting down to the fact the solar is also a 22nd level martial character with a +5 dancing greantsword and +5 composite +9 strength bonus bow with unlimited arrows of slaying.*yawns*
And if you keep playing this kind of game with extra-planar powers, the down-side is you are going to make lots of enemies with these powers who may start deliberately coming after you, with everything they've got; rather than continue to put up with the summoning round-and-round... not to mention their friends and kinfolk. And if you're of good alignment, there probably should be more penalties for yanking around 'Solars' for kicks and grins and/or your own selfish goals (alignment issues, Deity disapproval, etc.)-- on the other hand, if you're "good" and each time you're calling on a 'Solar' for assistance in a legitimate cause your Deity approves of... calling on 'Solars' for aid will probably have few negative repercussions.
And if you keep playing this kind of game with extra-planar powers, the down-side is you are going to make lots of enemies with these powers who may start deliberately coming after you, with everything they've got; rather than continue to put up with the summoning round-and-round... not to mention their friends and kinfolk. And if you're of good alignment, there probably should be more penalties for yanking around 'Solars' for kicks and grins and/or your own selfish goals (alignment issues, Deity disapproval, etc.)-- on the other hand, if you're "good" and each time you're calling on a 'Solar' for assistance in a legitimate cause your Deity approves of... calling on 'Solars' for aid will probably have few negative repercussions.
But seriously, you can get unlimited wishes as early as 13th level via planar binding and efreeti. There's nothing to see here that's particularly special. The biggest advantage that we have with wish/miracle/gate is the on-demand aspect. It's not really practical to draw up a magic circle to call up your friend Carl the Genie in the middle of an adventure, and certainly not in the middle of a battle; but a cleric can pop a gate and poop out another 20th level cleric complete with 1/day wishes, mass heal, and a few dozen other really sexy spells and abilities; and that's just for pure support. Not even getting down to the fact the solar is also a 22nd level martial character with a +5 dancing greantsword and +5 composite +9 strength bonus bow with unlimited arrows of slaying.*yawns*
That's great and all, but where were those powers that be the last time something weird was going on? Oh, on the far planes doing powers that be stuff? Yeah, I thought so.
There's actually little stopping a big bad evil guy from using stuff like gate to throw a perfectly benevolent solar at the party for his otherwise nefarious schemes. Same with planar bound stuff. In fact, I imagine it's the #1 way neutral and good parties end up battling some of these sorts of high CR enemies. I mean, look at the list of CR 16 enemies. It's like one evil dragon, one good dragon, a horned devil, and a Planetar.
The irony is that big bad who decided to have the planetar raze a village against its will, just to prove a point? Yeah, he was casting a [Good] spell to do it. Muahahaha. Sweet irony. Now prepare to face the plagues of egypt boys and girls, because ol' Vecna is callin' down the heavenly host against its will in a big ol' chain-gating to watch the valleys burn and the heavens weep.
We need some heroes to go put a boot in his rear!
Butt kicking, for goodness!
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That's great and all, but where were those powers that be the last time something weird was going on? Oh, on the far planes doing powers that be stuff? Yeah, I thought so.There's actually little stopping a big bad evil guy from using stuff like gate to throw a perfectly benevolent solar at the party for his otherwise nefarious schemes. Same with planar bound stuff. In fact, I imagine it's the #1 way...
Yeah, well... if you're the GM, you can have the BBEG as a wizard or sorcerer (an Evil Cleric can't gate in a 'Good' Outsider-- Clerics still can't cast spells of opposed alignment, and 'Gate' becomes aligned/typed based on what plane and planar creature you're using it to reach), you can have the BBEG either be that many levels above the party or have the right magic items to increase his/her caster level high enough to control the big badass critter he/she has gated in (against its will), and since (unlike the players) the BBEG only has as many problems with the inevitable revenge of the outsiders he keeps messing with as the GM needs to apply for a plot point (unlike PCs, who get to face the consequences of all of their actions and decisions unless the GM's just giving the game away)-- yeah, the enemy can do this s*** with nigh impunity unless/until our heroes stop him/her.
What I was commenting on-- is what happens (or should happen IMO) when the player-characters use this tactic of yours frequently, not when the GM has some bad guy doing it-- I suppose YMMV, but I wouldn't respect a GM who let the players get away with it repeatedly without consequences. Now, if in your earlier posts you weren't speaking of ways for the PCs to get easier access to wishes, miracles, and high-powered assistance via Gate (or other spell) rather than using Wish or Miracle themselves, I suppose I wasn't really addressing your post's intent...
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I hate it when people just look at the numbers and think they can do whatever without any repercussions.
Creatures do expect payment for doing you a service, even with a Gate spell. If you don't pay what it asks for then this can happen: 'Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.'
So calling up a Solar for a quick and cheap Wish isn't going to be working very often. What could you pay back a Solar who grants you a Wish/Miracle anyway? It's these things that players seem to skip over.
Not really. I think you're seriously trying to twist the wording here.
No. As a GM is perfectly fine to interpret the wording and the spell that way. I believe that is intentionally vague.
Player Advocacy Movement vs. GM Overlordship Association.
FIIIIGHT!
Err. No.
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Err. No.Player Advocacy Movement vs. GM Overlordship Association.
FIIIIGHT!
Yep!
"Players have full control over their spells, if Mister Cavern tries to limit that he's a rule-0 control freak" vs. "Game Master has control over everything, it's his prerogative".
The crux of many arguments here and there is the clash between these two visions of how RPGs should play out.
Yep!
"Players have full control over their spells, if Mister Cavern tries to limit that he's a rule-0 control freak" vs. "Game Master has control over everything, it's his prerogative".
The crux of many arguments here and there is the clash between these two visions of how RPGs should play out.
Its not that clear-cut in most cases, including this one. I argued for the DM to be able to interpret gate in a way so that it is not possible to get discount wishes.
Nonetheless I strongly disagree with the notion that the "Game Master has control over everything, it's his prerogative".
Player Advocacy Movement vs. GM Overlordship Association.
FIIIIGHT!
Ironically, I'ved GMed 90% of everything I've been involved in over the past 12 years, and I'm firmly in the "Player Advocacy Movement" if I had to choose a side. Wish and Miracle have both been nerfed (wish especially) and even Gate has its limits; though I do not believe that calling a creature to serve for the normal 1 round/level beyond the 10,000 gp worth of rare incense and offerings.
I'm the freakin' GM, what do I care of the players can summon solars? If you can't stand the heat of high level play, stay out of the nine. :P
Yeah, well... if you're the GM, you can have the BBEG as a wizard or sorcerer (an Evil Cleric can't gate in a 'Good' Outsider-- Clerics still can't cast spells of opposed alignment, and 'Gate' becomes aligned/typed based on what plane and planar creature you're using it to reach), you can have the BBEG either be that many levels above the party or have the right magic items to increase his/her caster level high enough to control the big badass critter he/she has gated in (against its will), and since (unlike the players) the BBEG only has as many problems with the inevitable revenge of the outsiders he keeps messing with as the GM needs to apply for a plot point (unlike PCs, who get to face the consequences of all of their actions and decisions unless the GM's just giving the game away)-- yeah, the enemy can do this s*** with nigh impunity unless/until our heroes stop him/her.
Which is my point. I don't actually buy into that. What's good for the goose is good for the gander in my book. Maybe it's because I'm not prejudice against the PCs. Maybe the extraplanar beings could come get revenge, or maybe they'll stay away for fear that the caster will just gate control them again.
On a side note, FuelDrop noted a very simple method for a 20th level wizard to happily gate a solar regardless of his/her alignment; and a 20th level wizard is CR 19; which basically means you might encounter this badness at 16th level at the earliest (APL+3)(though I would probably consider it a good time to make use of stuff resembling teleport, word of recall, and plane shift to get the hell out of there if we were 16th level dealing with a 20th level wizard).
What I was commenting on-- is what happens (or should happen IMO) when the player-characters use this tactic of yours frequently, not when the GM has some bad guy doing it-- I suppose YMMV, but I wouldn't respect a GM who let the players get away with it repeatedly without consequences. Now, if in your earlier posts you weren't speaking of ways for the PCs to get easier access to wishes, miracles, and high-powered assistance via Gate (or other spell) rather than using Wish or Miracle themselves, I suppose I wasn't really addressing your post's intent...
Nah, you're correct. It is fairly easy to get wish and miracle if you're a 20th level caster, by dropping 10,000 gp on calling a solar. No problems. You can get free wishes from 13th level onward in the comfort of your own home, happily warded with private sanctum of course.
Someone asked which was stronger? Wish or Miracle. All in all, I'd probably have to say miracle since it's more utilitarian uses within the confines of stuff expected to work don't require you blowing 25,000 gp gemstones each time you cast it, and it allows them access to 7th level arcane and druid spells (and likely psionics if you use psionics), which is peachy. Wish on the other hand is only really good if you can dodge the 25,000 gp cost, which can be done via planar means.
Yet Gate is stronger than both because you can Gate in a creature that can do either, who is under your control for around 22 rounds, who has the above as spell-like abilities and stuff.
And yet, all three spells are better than the 9th level divination spell.
Ok, it might help for me to clarify a couple things for this post.
This is actually for a staff in a game I'm running which will be an artifact held by an NPC. The players might get their hands on it for a day or two (directly or indirectly), but the likelihood of that is small, and someone is surely going to come and reclaim it, assuming the staff doesn't just disappear as per that nasty little habit of some artifacts.
While the staff does have other abilities, the signature ability is (somewhat obviously) the Wish/Miracle spell. Also of note is the fact that in this campaign the gods are somewhat fickle, as they fight inter-planar wars on the material plane every few hundred years (it's the only way for planes with opposing alignments to directly interact, but cycles with respect to cosmic sympathies), so Miracle may not be as reliable as expected.
As for the crux, I really want the Miracle/Wish ability to drain the staff and have some sort of backlash based on the use. It would also be nice to have some special recharge requirement. But for this to be effective I can't just make any old staff, partially because if I did the crafting cost for a staff (before other abilities) with Miracle (61,200gp for 1 charge/use) and for a staff with Wish (131,120gp for 10 charges/use) are so drastically different.
As for the Planar Ally and Gate solutions to this problem, my ruling is simple: The SLA allowing the genie/solar/whatever costs that creature the same amount as it would for the characters to cast the spell, so they would reasonably ask for compensation in goods or services. AKA, you might be able to strike a real good bargain, but if the request isn't in the creature's nature you are still going to suffer consequences (actual cost or enmity).
After all, just because you can control a creature to do something against it's will for a time, that doesn't mean that he/she/it won't hold a grudge against you later. But if you can help further the creatures ends, well, then you might just get away with something. But between an outsider's power and longevity (and presumed patience), unless they really need something right now they couldn't get otherwise why would they waste a perfectly good Wish or Miracle (and any associated cost)?
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Err. No.Player Advocacy Movement vs. GM Overlordship Association.
FIIIIGHT!
Yep!
"Players have full control over their spells, if Mister Cavern tries to limit that he's a rule-0 control freak" vs. "Game Master has control over everything, it's his prerogative".
The crux of many arguments here and there is the clash between these two visions of how RPGs should play out.
I prefer more of a balance between the two extremes. IMO, good RPG sessions require some measure of cooperation between the GM and the players... "collective story-telling" rather than competition works best in my experience.
Player Advocacy Movement vs. GM Overlordship Association.
FIIIIGHT!
ok. *Pulls out oversized warhammer and proceeds to pound Gorbacz into paste.*
Surgeon general's warning: Trolling can be hazardous to your health.
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Which is my point. I don't actually buy into that. What's good for the goose is good for the gander in my book. Maybe it's because I'm not prejudice against the PCs. Maybe the extraplanar beings could come get revenge, or maybe they'll stay away for fear that the caster will just gate control them again.
Which also means I probably didn't explain myself that well. Yes, in principle at the least, I agree that NPCs & Enemies should face the same limits as the PCs, and that PCs should get to take advantage of the same things that NPCs get to do in the game world. My point is not that the Solars (and other extra-planar critters) aren't going to be coming after the BBEG for revenge-- it's that since the BBEG is not on stage except when the PCs are around (the story/game/POV follows the PCs), the PCs aren't usually around to see the problems the PCs are having with extra-planar revenge for the BBEG's use of the 'Gate' spell.
Also, the PCs may be tough enough to withstand and destroy any efforts at revenge from the extra-planar critters and their friends, and withstand all the inconvenience that unfriendly extra-planar attention draws on them. The BBEG probably is tough enough also-- and again, the PCs don't see what he's dealing with when he's not on stage with them.
On a side note, FuelDrop noted a very simple method for a 20th level wizard to happily gate a solar regardless of his/her alignment; and a 20th level wizard is CR 19; which basically means you might encounter this badness at 16th level at the earliest (APL+3)(though I would probably consider it a good time to make use of stuff resembling teleport, word of recall, and plane shift to get the hell out of there if we were 16th level dealing with a 20th level wizard).
And of course your wizard is going to have the items to raise his effective caster level above the HD of the critter he's summoning and calling on for aid, because you can't compel service from the critter you've called via the 'Gate' spell unless your CL is more than its hit dice (yes, I already noted that Wizards, and Sorcerers, are not subjected to the restriction on "opposed alignment" spells that divine casters face). And pay the 10,000, and all the rest of that.
Now, given what you've just mentioned about your characters' reaction to facing a 20th level wizard at 16th level, I just gotta ask: what the f*** do you think a 22 HD extra-planar power with lots of very powerful spell-like abilities and 20th lvl Cleric abilities; and extreme reason to hold a grudge against someone arrogant enough to call it and (through magic items, unless you're throwing epic BBEGs against your players or running games for epic PCs) control it temporarily; is going to do about the people who did that to it-- just crawl away and let it go? Especially since, being 'Good' and maybe even 'Lawful Good'-- it ain't just gonna be the Solar acting alone, it's gonna be the Solar and every friend the Solar can call upon.
And, just for the greater glory of the PCs... there are alignment consequences (or should be-- I suppose you can throw that out the window too) for repeatedly forcing servitude on other creatures against their will. BBEGs, already being evil, don't really care that what they're doing is evil.... (now, if you wanna run evil games, go for it).
Nah, you're correct. It is fairly easy to get wish and miracle if you're a 20th level caster, by dropping 10,000 gp on calling a solar. No problems. You can get free wishes from 13th level onward in the comfort of your own home, happily warded with private sanctum of course.
I really hope you're just being sarcastic here, but I fear you might not be. Not free, because 1. there's the cost of the spell to summon the critter (and whatever other items you need to create or buy, to be able to control and compel service from what you summon) and 2. what I keep saying here-- you force servitude from summoned critters, there should be consequences (Planar Binding, for instance, explicitly states that the creatures you've summoned and compelled servitude from, may seek revenge later). Also, what spell are you using, prior to being able to cast 9th lvl spells (such as 'Gate'), that can get you a critter under your control that can and will cast 'wish' for you?
IMO, not making the PCs face the consequences of their actions isn't being a "good GM", it's being a give-away game show host.
This makes 'Miracle' and 'Wish' clearly more useful than 'Gate' in many ways-- they don't have the consequences that 'Gate' should have if the GM is not ignoring the reactions of the creatures that have been 'Gated' and forced to briefly serve (Gate is also a little bit 'vague' about just how much you can do with the 'control' you can impose via the spell-- there isn't even a duration listed for that, though I see you and a few others stating it's 1 rd/caster level (source for that btw?)-- looks more to me like 'control' means you can stop the creature from doing whatever the hell it wants to as soon as it shows up. You want something specific from it? You're going to have to pay-- the spell is specific about requiring fair payment for any sort of involved or extended service, so IMO the only 'freebie' involved is the creature showing up and not deciding to try to beat your a** in the first place.
And, speaking of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander"-- Liam has raised a really interesting point: How are your PCs going to react (especially if they still have less than 22 hit dice) when one of them gets summoned to another plane and has service required/forced from him/her, via an extra-planar creature (on its home plane) using the 'Gate' spell?
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The "Gate" spell is actually a DM controlled spell. There are limits to what you can make a creature do.
"Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from
another
plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants
the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of
origin,
although the spell may limit the circumstances
under which this is possible. Creatures who are called
actually
die when they are killed; they do not disappear
and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see
below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous,
which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled."
I don't see anywhere under "Calling" that you can make a creature do anything. The Gate spell does say control but it doesn't specify just how much control you have over a being. It would actually be up to the DM to rate what exactly a more "involved" service is. I would say that casting a Wish or Miracle is a more involved service and would require extra payment. Gate is a Conjuration Creation and Calling, not a compulsion. Basically what control means in the Gate spell is you can keep that Solar from ripping your head off but not necessarily making him cast Wish on you. It's DM's final call on this spell.
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I trust the people arguing for allowing unlimited wishes from summoned creatures are either:
- not entirely serious
- perfectly happy with a party of players with +5 inherent bonuses to all stats
- completely insane
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The "Gate" spell is actually a DM controlled spell. There are limits to what you can make a creature do.
"Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from
another
plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants
the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of
origin,
although the spell may limit the circumstances
under which this is possible. Creatures who are called
actually
die when they are killed; they do not disappear
and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see
below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous,
which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled."I don't see anywhere under "Calling" that you can make a creature do anything. The Gate spell does say control but it doesn't specify just how much control you have over a being. It would actually be up to the DM to rate what exactly a more "involved" service is. I would say that casting a Wish or Miracle is a more involved service and would require extra payment. Gate is a Conjuration Creation and Calling, not a compulsion. Basically what control means in the Gate spell is you can keep that Solar from ripping your head off but not necessarily making him cast Wish on you. It's DM's final call on this spell.
Shallowsoul--
I find you on the opposite side of debates often enough that it's a really pleasant surprise to find something that I agree with you on, without reservations (not that opposing views and open debate are bad, though). :D
Nice post.
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I really hope you're just being sarcastic here, but I fear you might not be. Not free, because 1. there's the cost of the spell to summon the critter (and whatever other items you need to create or buy, to be able to control and compel service from what you summon) and 2. what I keep saying here-- you force servitude from summoned critters, there should be consequences (Planar Binding, for instance, explicitly states that the creatures you've summoned and compelled servitude from, may seek revenge later). Also, what spell are you using, prior to being able to cast 9th lvl spells (such as 'Gate'), that can get you a critter under your control that can and will cast 'wish' for you?
Not as sarcastic as you might think. Not every creature is going to be apprehensive about planar binding. In fact, genies are stupid for not handing out wishes to mortals who ask for them under the right terms. Ever see Aladdin? "Ok, 2 wishes for me, and I make 1 wish on your behalf. You can't grant yourself wishes, but hey, I can wish for you."
Wish has been severely nerfed since 3.5. In 3.5 my players got some efreeti and offered this deal. Finding literally no logical reason to turn them down, I took them aside and explained that they would essentially have infinite money and stuff and that it might mess up the campaign, and discussed what they thought about stuff, how the campaign would need to shift to adapt, etc, etc. Ultimately, they got their wishes, the campaign went on, and it turned out to be one of the best campaigns we've ever had.
I trust the people arguing for allowing unlimited wishes from summoned creatures are either:
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- perfectly happy with a party of players with +5 inherent bonuses to all stats
- completely insane
Guilty as charged. +5 inherent mods? That's only +2.5 ability modifier. Hardly anything to write home about. At first I was kind of like "Hrmm, that seems a bit much..." and then realized, it really wasn't. I realized even if they had their +5 inherent mods from 1st level, where it would really seem amazing, it still wouldn't throw a wrench into my cogs, so who cares?
I do admit to being completely insane though.
EDIT: Also, really, c'mon people. The spell says control. Exactly how much control do you have to wrench from people before you decide they don't control something anymore. It's not a matter of gently nudging them to do something. You control them. This control lasts for 1 round/level. Longer and more involved service (beyond that 1 round/level) requires more.
Seriously, I think some people are being as disingenuous as GMs often complain their PCs are.
I think that it is reasonable for a casting of Wish or Miracle to be considered under the clause of a "longer or more involved form of service" (emphasis mine) and that is how I will run such instances in my game. Feel free to alter this for your game if you choose.
But that is not what my OP was about. It was about the relative power of Wish and Miracle. So far, from what few responses actually concerning this topic have been posted, I'd say that Wish is more powerful (if trickier to use), but also contains more of an overhead cost.
Now, as for my 2nd post on the topic of this thread, I was trying to create an artifact staff with one of these spells as a key ability. For this purpose I'm thinking that cost shouldn't be so much an issue as it is supposed to be a freaking artifact after all, and held by an NPC, not a character. But even at that I want it to feel unique.
So part 2 of this thread shall ensue:
How many charges (max) should the staff have?
How many of those charges should using the keystone ability cost?
What kind of special recharge requirement could be placed on this item?
What other kind of "backlash" might using this item involve for more advanced uses (other than just recreating a lower lvl spell)?
Could I please get some input on these topics before this thread gets any more derailed.
Thanks.
At first I was kind of like "Hrmm, that seems a bit much..." and then realized, it really wasn't. I realized even if they had their +5 inherent mods from 1st level, where it would really seem amazing, it still wouldn't throw a wrench into my cogs, so who cares?
I do admit to being completely insane though.
In a way, you're right. It's not actually that much and, frankly, any good GM can take whatever arises and run with it. You can run a game where the players are the lords of the world and have all the wishes, power, and money they can imagine. It can be done - it's not even difficult - and it can be fun and compelling. The focus simply shifts from power and acquisition to choice, achievement, and consequence.
The only issue I have with this is that, at that point, you aren't playing this game anymore. You're playing Nobilis, or Exalted. But you're not playing Pathfinder, which is a game that's balanced within some fairly strict and important paradigms of challenge, wealth by level, and power acquisition.
You can set them aside if you like. In fact, I encourage you to if you think it'll help your group have more fun. But at that point you're playing a different game, and different rules apply.
Regarding the issue of "controlling" gated creatures
A caster that calls a creature using gate is subject to the same restrictions on the calling as the planar ally spells. "Controlled" in this context means that it will perform simple services for nothing and/or sit there and bargain with you without attacking you / returning home instantly. It does not mean it will do things like grant you a chain of wishes. As with planar ally, great service of any kind requires appropriate payment, even if you control the being in question.
If I'm stupid enough to call a demon into a circle, one of the following two things will happen.
- I can't control it. It breaks out of the circle and eats me.
- I can control it. It can't attack me directly. It bargains.
Calling it means I can ask it to do lesser services, like "fetch this", "attack that guy", and "cast a spell to temporarily increase my strength". It does not mean I can get away with things like "tell me your true name", "give me a bushel of never-born souls", or "travel to the higher planes and surrender". Demanding wishes, with no negotiation, is right out.
In the Pathfinder system, Ultimate Magic makes it very clear how big a deal outsider-calling is, and what sort of restrictions limit it. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/outsider-categories I think that section makes it clear that solar-gating-wish-chaining is outside both the rules as written and the rules as intended.
But that is not what my OP was about. It was about the relative power of Wish and Miracle.
Whoops. Yep. Personally, I would say that miracle is more flexible as a general casting tool, and safer to cast in general, so long as you're on good terms with your deity. Wish is both theoretically more powerful and more dangerous. I would prefer to use miracle.
How many charges (max) should the staff have?
How many of those charges should using the keystone ability cost?
What kind of special recharge requirement could be placed on this item?
What other kind of "backlash" might using this item involve for more advanced uses (other than just recreating a lower lvl spell)?
Thinking of "charges" for an ability like casting wish is going the wrong direction for this item. I like your idea of a special recharge requirement. Take it a little further. Power requires sacrifice. Great power requires great sacrifice. For each and every casting of wish, there should be a real and meaningful cost.
The actual cost should depend on the alignment and goals of the artifact. Here are some suggestions, along with associated goals.
- (Selfishly manipulating Fate) Someone you care about suffers a dark fate (to clarify, they should die or worse) every time you invoke the staff for a wish. If you no longer care about anyone, this power does not work for you.
- (Granting mortals the power to do good) No wish you make with this staff can be intended to benefit you directly or indirectly. If you ever make such a wish, the staff leaves you. (Taken from earlier in the thread, with thanks!).
- (Enforcing the rule of law and consequence) Every time you use the staff to wish, you must bind yourself with an oath you choose. (Examples: never to eat meat, chastity, not suffering evil to live) This works as a greater geas that can never be removed.
- (Allowing chaos to run riot) Every time you make a wish, a random person within a hundred miles is granted the next thing they desperately want as a wish.
- (Working toward the goals of evil) To make a wish, the character must sacrifice a hand, an eye, or a truly innocent sentient being.
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I do admit to being completely insane though.
Heh. So I'm not the only one... but I get paid for it. :D
(I also enjoy reading a lot of your posts and discussing things with you, although I often disagree with the positions you take-- and of course, you still never gave me those promised replies on some threads that have died off by now... not sure if that speaks to my sanity or insanity though) :P
EDIT: Also, really, c'mon people. The spell says control. Exactly how much control do you have to wrench from people before you decide they don't control something anymore. It's not a matter of gently nudging them to do something. You control them. This control lasts for 1 round/level. Longer and more involved service (beyond that 1 round/level) requires more.
Hmmm... no, I think Shallowsoul and others actually have a clearer and by RAI (IMO) better idea of what control means in this spell's context... especially since I do not see anywhere in the spell the implication that the "1 rd/lvl" duration applies to controlling the summoned critter-- that appears to explicitly define how long you can keep the gate open when you're using it for planar transportation. Oh, and when you're using the gate for planar transportation-- the 10,000 GP material component cost does not appear to apply-- that's just the extra stuff you have to provide if you're calling a creature to you.
Oh, and what SO put in his last post, pretty much spells it out well again.
You do have a very interesting point, on the value to a (Noble, since only they can grant wishes) Djinn of making a bargain with the summoner that states that the summoner will use two wishes for himself and one for the Djinn.... if I were the Djinn, and couldn't grant myself wishes but could grant others wishes if I so chose, yeah, I'd go for that deal any time...
In a way, you're right. It's not actually that much and, frankly, any good GM can take whatever arises and run with it. You can run a game where the players are the lords of the world and have all the wishes, power, and money they can imagine. It can be done - it's not even difficult - and it can be fun and compelling. The focus simply shifts from power and acquisition to choice, achievement, and consequence.The only issue I have with this is that, at that point, you aren't playing this game anymore. You're playing Nobilis, or Exalted. But you're not playing Pathfinder, which is a game that's balanced within some fairly strict and important paradigms of challenge, wealth by level, and power acquisition.
Two things. One, wish doesn't provide wealth anymore. Like I said before, it has be heavily nerfed compared to its 3.x counterparts. Now there are very specific and controlled things wish can be used for, and none of it allows you to wish for money, magic items, etc. That's why I said "back in a 3.5 game" because Wish was stronger. The absolute best thing you're going to get from Wish that cannot be got otherwise is...+2.5 to a stat, assuming you have 3-5 djinn working in tandem.
Secondly, by the time you are able to do this, you are in fact beyond the mortal coil. You're at a level where mortality is kind of a "meh" thing. You wield godlike power. Even Pathfinder society stops at 12th level, which is exactly 1 level before any of this stuff goes down. Funny that.
Likewise, there's nothing fairly strict about it. Wealth by level is awesome, and yet easily rebelled against. Just taking item creation feats by design will allow you to exceed wealth by level during a game, as there is no way to get around that.
Just going by core, at some point having infinite money is pretty useless because in core you can only reasonably find stuff with a 16,000 gp or less price tag, and anything else either has to be crafted; quested; or gifted.
You can set them aside if you like. In fact, I encourage you to if you think it'll help your group have more fun. But at that point you're playing a different game, and different rules apply.
I haven't actually stepped outside the RAW at all. I'm just not afraid of PCs wielding that power.
You do have a very interesting point, on the value to a (Noble, since only they can grant wishes) Djinn of making a bargain with the summoner that states that the summoner will use two wishes for himself and one for the Djinn.... if I were the Djinn, and couldn't grant myself wishes but could grant others wishes if I so chose, yeah, I'd go for that deal any time...
All Efreeti grant wishes. You could pull a drunken efreeti bum off the streets of the city of brass and he can grant mortals wishes. The way my players went about it was very simple. They called an efreeti, explained that they wanted to make him a business offer, explained they wanted to give him the 2 for 1 wish deal, and wanted him to get 4 other efreeti volunteers to go along with them, for the same deal. So they got 5 efreeti to grant them wishes (allowing them to chain-wishes for the +5 inherent modifier casually), and then made wishes on the efreets' behalf.
On a side note, they got to know the efreeti by name. In fact, it led to a side quest, because the efreeti informed the heroes that their homeland was being attacked by a tyrannical power, and they needed the heroes to assist them. Of course, being friendly with the efreeti who were not only esteemed associates at this point but the party's gravy train of wishes, they of course accepted. The party went on a multi-session long side-quest to save the efreeti, which resulted in them being given many slaves as thanks (which the party subsequently freed).
Ok, Sir Ophiuchus, since you are the one who seems to be in line with what I'm looking for, what I'm considering is something along the lines of a more versatile Staff of the Magi. It will have a few 1 to 2 charge powers, a general purpose "Miracle equivalent" usage for requests which would not require a material component for that spell, and a super-powerful "Wish equivalent" power for anything else in case of an "OH S**T" storm.
That said, the theme of the NPC wielding this item is a protector of the material plane who is true neutral, but wavers between LN and CN and has a slight leaning toward good. He is a native outsider with the taints of both the celestial and abyssal realms who has to keep his actual identity obscured due to the prejudice against outsiders (other than elementals) due to the outer planes using the material plane as a battlefield for their ethical wars.
He acquired the item through several centuries of alternating sides to maintain a balance on the material plane, during which he had various outsiders from the different planes imbue it with a portion of their power as payment for his "services", and after a period it became an artifact in it's own right.
Ultimately the concept comes down to upholding balance for the greater benefit (not necessarily Good, per sey, but existence itself).
I want the lower powers to be more utilitarian with limited buff/combat applications (yes, Summon spells will be included) and openly usable as per any staff. The mid lvl powers I want to be usable on occasion for general combat and tactics but still accessible. The "limited Miracle" power I want to be restricted to severe need only. And the "Wish equivalent" power is meant to be a last ditch effort which severely drains the item and has some backlash.
I can see requiring an additional caster to recharge the staff due to it's nature of being created through the (unintentional) efforts of many different beings, but constantly chasing creatures with casting abilities is a bit off-beat for me.
You seem to have the gist, though, with your proposed backlashes, so please, give me whatever you can.
All Efreeti grant wishes. You could pull a drunken efreeti bum off the streets of the city of brass and he can grant mortals wishes. The way my players went about it was very simple. They called an efreeti, explained that they wanted to make him a business offer, explained they wanted to give him the 2 for 1 wish deal, and wanted him to get 4 other efreeti volunteers to go along with them, for the same deal. So they got 5 efreeti to grant them wishes (allowing them to chain-wishes for the +5 inherent modifier casually), and then made wishes on the efreets' behalf.
If it were that easy, every high level NPC in the game would have +5 to all stats. Could be so, but why bother?
Really, the reason most GMs won't allow discounted solar or free efreeti wishes is not because they are "afraid to grant the PCs that much power" (I am paraphrasing you here), but because such tactics may seem silly to some - and its clearly not intended or implied that all PCs get a +5 to all stats once the party hits lvl 13 - which, again would be standard if it were that easy.
I just yesterday read an great article by Monte Cook in Kobold Magazine about game balance. He made the excellent point that game balance does not exist in the rules, because there will always be "legal" ways to break the game or do things that weren't intended by the authors but are possible if adhering to the rules (or maybe twisting them a little bit by intentionally misunderstanding some things) (RAGELANCEPOUNCE comes to mind). Second, its possible to "unbalance" things outside of the rules just by behaving a certain way - one and the same character can unbalance the game in the hands of one player, while its entirely unproblematic in the hands of another.
Bottom line is: balance can only come out of the players and the GM working together and the players trusting the GM to make certain decisions (that may be strictly outside the rules as they are written).
It certainly IS possible and viable to play the way you do, Ashiel. But do not call the majority of gamers "afraid", because they play different.
All Efreeti grant wishes.Unfortunately, not anymore. Check the PF Bestiary... apparently they dropped that power for all them except for Djinni Nobles. Other'n that-- nice scheme.
According to PRD they still can:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/genie.html#genie-efreeti
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All Efreeti grant wishes.Unfortunately, not anymore. Check the PF Bestiary... apparently they dropped that power for all them except for Djinni Nobles. Other'n that-- nice scheme.According to PRD they still can:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/genie.html#genie-efreeti
Better recheck the link you just sent me to. Only Noble Djinn and Noble Shaitan still have that "three wishes" ability-- maybe the way you remember it used to be the case, but it's not there anymore now.
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We were talking about efreet. They can grant wishes even if they are not noble.
Better recheck the link you just sent me to. Only Noble Djinn and Noble Shaitan still have that "three wishes" ability-- maybe the way you remember it used to be the case, but it's not there anymore now.All Efreeti grant wishes.Unfortunately, not anymore. Check the PF Bestiary... apparently they dropped that power for all them except for Djinni Nobles. Other'n that-- nice scheme.According to PRD they still can:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/genie.html#genie-efreeti
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th)
Constant—detect magic
At Will—plane shift (willing targets to elemental planes, Astral Plane, or Material Plane only), produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 14), scorching ray
3/day—invisibility, quickened scorching ray, wall of fire (DC 16)
1/day—grant up to 3 wishes (to nongenies only), gaseous form, permanent image (DC 18)
If it were that easy, every high level NPC in the game would have +5 to all stats. Could be so, but why bother?
Really, the reason most GMs won't allow discounted solar or free efreeti wishes is not because they are "afraid to grant the PCs that much power" (I am paraphrasing you here), but because such tactics may seem silly to some - and its clearly not intended or implied that all PCs get a +5 to all stats once the party hits lvl 13 - which, again would be standard if it were that easy.
Exactly who are you, or I, or Finn, or anyone, to say what is clearly intended or implied? It's pretty obvious that efreeti grant wishes. It's been such for, what, how many editions now? You can phone 'em up as early as 13th level by yourself. Why would efreeti have wishes to grant if they didn't expect them to grant wishes, exactly?
Do you suppose it's because the designers intended for the efreeti, in their low-CR states, to somehow bypass their inability to grant themselves wishes to allow them to steamroll a party? Was it just some sort of dirty trick for the efreeti to grant NPCs tons of wishes but was so much unintended for PCs?
Frankly, none of us can say what the intentions were. In fact, neither can the Paizo staff, because 90% of Pathfinder is carry-over from 3.5 which is 90% carry over from 3.0; which means that you can't even ask the actual designers. Even still, it's there, so you can either house rule it, ignore it, or accept it.
I just yesterday read an great article by Monte Cook in Kobold Magazine about game balance. He made the excellent point that game balance does not exist in the rules, because there will always be "legal" ways to break the game or do things that weren't intended by the authors but are possible if adhering to the rules (or maybe twisting them a little bit by intentionally misunderstanding some things) (RAGELANCEPOUNCE comes to mind). Second, its possible to "unbalance" things outside of the rules just by behaving a certain way - one and the same character can unbalance the game in the hands of one player, while its entirely unproblematic in the hands of another.
Exactly. It's not problematic. It's only problematic if you fear the use of it. Don't. Don't fear. They're 13th level. They're already beyond the point PCs are required to retire from Pathfinder Society. Getting bent out of shape because the party can get +2.5 to their mods is in my book fearing it. If it really doesn't matter, and you don't fear it, then there's no harm in allowing it to happen. Maybe it is easy to get free wishes.
I could post a laundry list of horribly "broken" things that are in core, and have been in core for ages, which weren't "fixed" in Pathfinder, and are likely to get inexperienced GMs in an uproar or cause knee-jerk reactions super easily. Heck, I know a GM who was raging over Wish being so amazingly broken that it was going to be banned in his game because it lets you "do anything"; and all I could muster was...
ಠ_ಠ
I think a lot of these perceived problems are with the GMs more so than the rules. Balance has never existed. Monte is right. It doesn't exist, hasn't existed, and won't exist. People broke 4E before the books were even published due to pdf leaks and everyone lauds 4E like some sort of holy grail of balance.
Like I said. When my players explained what they wanted to do, I told them I would think about it. And I did. I thought about it really heavily. I figured what it would mean for the campaign if they were allowed to get free wishes, and these were 3.5 wishes which could give you MONEY. I explained that if that is what they wanted, I wouldn't even stand in their way to infinite cash. It's not like there aren't about three hundred other ways to generate infinite cash in 3.x/Pathfinder. I explained that I would assume that they would have to make all their own items, and that this would pretty much take out any importance of gathering treasure in the game. They agreed, and were alright with that. So they effectively had infinite money and upgraded their gear to the best they could support on their caster levels whenever possible.
The game actually went on for months after, right up into epic levels. It was one of the best games we ever had. Their efreeti wealth wasn't even an issue, since it made them less anal about getting the best items for their build, and caused them to take it slow, and do stuff like take a month off so the healer could open a hospital, while the other party members built a skyship to sail in the air with the sorcerer's leadership followers. Money was merely a means to social ends now, and favors and quests were the real currency between the high level folk of the world.
Like I said before. I learned not to be afraid of PCs having power. It's part of the level advancement process. It's part of using their abilities as they are presented. It is rare that something actually becomes really disruptive. I cannot stress communication enough, and not being intimidated as a GM with big numbers or something that catches you off guard. I've seen so many GMs fail to progress themselves as GMs and actually improve as GMs because they were too afraid to actually dive into the game. They were upset when a PC knew something they didn't, or if they found something they immediately were uncertain of how to deal with would ban, nerf, or ignore.
Someone said I'm not playing Pathfinder, I'm playing Exalted. I'm saying if this doesn't look like Pathfinder to you, then we must be using different books.
Well infinite cash and effectively playing with PB 50 or so CAN be done. Its just not the game as its usually played. And people who play it differently as you are not afraid. They just adhere more closely to the spirit of the rules. Free wishes at level 13 are NOT the norm in 99.9% of the games.
Efreet can grant wishes because of real world mythology. NOT because every lvl 13 party is supposed to have access to as many wishes as they like. If that were so, wish would be a level 6 spell with no material cost.
the philosophy of 'breaking' the game seems a bit wierd to me. after all, isn't the point of playing the game to have fun with your mates, not to 'win pathfinder'?
i can totally see why it's fun to discuss and theorise about, but where's the fun in being able to take on the gods single-handed in a head-on assult at level 3? taking that kind of theorycraft into the game is a mindset i'm afraid i just don't understand.
unlimited wishes (for purposes other than buffing ability scores, which isn't really gamebreaking at even mid-levels) just removes a lot of the fun from the game to my mind, and for that reason if it ever came up in a game i was running i'd ask the players to please stop, as it will make the game less fun when they can just wish their adventures over.
i'd be willing to give it a try if all the players were eager to, but if it obviously wasn't working then i'd put my foot down and put an end to it.
Well infinite cash and effectively playing with PB 50 or so CAN be done. Its just not the game as its usually played. And people who play it differently as you are not afraid. They just adhere more closely to the spirit of the rules. Free wishes at level 13 are NOT the norm in 99.9% of the games.
Of course, wish was heavily nerfed, and thus you can't get infinite cash anyway; so the only broken thing is now a non-issue. Funny that, aye? σ_σ
Efreet can grant wishes because of real world mythology. NOT because every lvl 13 party is supposed to have access to as many wishes as they like. If that were so, wish would be a level 6 spell with no material cost.
Being able to pop a wish on command is a big deal. The likelihood of being able to take the time to draw a magic circle and/or call your efreeti friend up when the crap hits the fan is likely very slim. It's very convenient to be able to rewind time 1 round to prevent your party's fighter from snuffing it, and being able to suddenly convert your spell into any 8th or 7th level spell or lower on demand is a lot more useful in the middle of an adventure than it is back at the ranch.