Can the wish spell be used to permanently increase the size of a player?
I would like to use the spell to increase the size of my medium sized character to large or even huge size.
If so...Can I wish straight to huge size or would it take 2 wishes (large then huge)?
It seems to me that is duplicating two Wizard/Sorcerer spells of 8th level or lower. #1 Enlarge Person and #2 Permanency. So I would say that permanently wishing a size increase, especially a two step, size increase would fall under:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)
So you could end up being turned into something undesirable of the appropriate size.
I think you're firmly in GM discretion territory there, which the Wish spell does accomodate.
By RAW, the closest you could do would be to use Wish to emulate the permanency spell to allow permanent enlarge person (if you did this, I think it'd be fine to throw in the casting of the level 1 enlarge person spell for free). Note that this is not an efficient way to do it, because you'd be spending more on the materials for Wish than for Permanency. It doesn't get you to huge, because enlarge person isn't going to stack with itself. And it can still be dispelled, though slightly harder to dispel than normal since it's a 9th level spell now. So that option kind of sucks, unless maybe you have an NPC granting you a wish for some reason.
If you're going to go the GM discretion route, I can tell you that if I was GM, it would fall into the category of "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous". You might experience some tragic side effects.
If you want to actually get to huge, a way to go about it might be to try to permanency a spell like giant form. That's definitely within the realm of GM discretion, since permanency doesn't allow for that. But it would have to be a lot of money to permanency, since it's such a high level spell. And that's a lot of money to go down the drain when you get dispelled.
The best option might be to create a custom magic item that grants a permanent effect. It would have to be extremely expensive, but at least it won't be dispelled. And if you ever found being huge to be too much of an obstacle you could always remove it.
Another option is of course synthesist summoner.
Also, being permanently Large or Huge has its own problems. I am thinking of having my Summoner take the Large evolution when he reaches 18th level, but I am going to make sure that he has learned the Transmogrify spell by then just in cast he needs to be smaller for a significant period of time.
Wish has a list of criteria it uses.
Basically, you make a wish and it checks if your wish can be fulfilled by a pre-existing spell or one of the conditions listed under wish. If The wish does not fall under the above then it falls into the "the wish can be granted, but the Dm can destroy your life" section of the wish description.
Well its not actually phrased like that, but my limited experience is that is how it will work out.
What all of the above means is that a wish to permanently increase your size will likely result in Polymorph any object.
By RAW, the closest you could do would be to use Wish to emulate the permanency spell to allow permanent enlarge person (if you did this, I think it'd be fine to throw in the casting of the level 1 enlarge person spell for free). Note that this is not an efficient way to do it, because you'd be spending more on the materials for Wish than for Permanency. It doesn't get you to huge, because enlarge person isn't going to stack with itself. And it can still be dispelled, though slightly harder to dispel than normal since it's a 9th level spell now. So that option kind of sucks, unless maybe you have an NPC granting you a wish for some reason.
I have considered the permanency route but that is kind of a "temporary" thing considering that we are all epic level (20+) and have easy access to spells like dispel, greater dispel, and the ever feared mage's disjunction. That's why I was looking at a REAL permanency bu way of the wish spell.
---------------------------Also, being permanently Large or Huge has its own problems. I am thinking of having my Summoner take the Large evolution when he reaches 18th level, but I am going to make sure that he has learned the Transmogrify spell by then just in cast he needs to be smaller for a significant period of time.
The character in question is a Sorcerer/Hellknight Signifier and has access to spells like Reduce Person and Monsterous Physique to get past these kind of limitations temporarily.
---------------------------If you want to actually get to huge, a way to go about it might be to try to permanency a spell like giant form. That's definitely within the realm of GM discretion, since permanency doesn't allow for that. But it would have to be a lot of money to permanency, since it's such a high level spell. And that's a lot of money to go down the drain when you get dispelled.
The best option might be to create a custom magic item that grants a permanent effect. It would have to be extremely expensive, but at least it won't be dispelled. And if you ever found being huge to be too much of an obstacle you could always remove it.
Once again, these are the kind of "temporary" situations I hope to avoid. I actually want to make my character "naturally" large or huge sized.
---------------------------You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)So you could end up being turned into something undesirable of the appropriate size.
Basically, you make a wish and it checks if your wish can be fulfilled by a pre-existing spell or one of the conditions listed under wish. If The wish does not fall under the above then it falls into the "the wish can be granted, but the Dm can destroy your life" section of the wish description.
That's kind of what I feared.
---------------------------I was hoping for a clear-cut answer by the rules but I guess I am going to have to do the whole
"Hey GM, I bought you a six pack of beer!....By the way, I want to wish my character large sized..."
The other possibility would be, once again, GM fiat. You could use the Wish to emulate Giant Form II, but Giant Form II isn't a spell that can be made permanent. But I'd likely allow it with a wish, your GM may vary.
Once you've got Giant Form II cast and you're a Huge humanoid, then you could stack a permanent Enlarge Person on that to become Gargantuan.
The whole thing is going to boil down to GM fiat/discretion/generosity.
Within the rules there is no way to become a permanently huge humanoid, as far as I am aware.
Personally I would give you a ring of enlarge person or modify a ring you have to include the enlarge person effect. Thus making you effectively large size permanently, but I would not allow for huge size.
"Hey GM, I bought you a six pack of beer!....By the way, I want to wish my character large sized..."
I believe that by RAW this requires a TWO six pack bribe.
Just get the PC Pump. The PC Enlargement Pills don't work.
You gotta warn of possible monitor damage due to soda sprayage when posting things like that! LoL
"Hey GM, I bought you a six pack of beer!....By the way, I want to wish my character large sized..."I believe that by RAW this requires a TWO six pack bribe.
Wow, RAW sure is thorough!
Wow, RAW sure is thorough!"Hey GM, I bought you a six pack of beer!....By the way, I want to wish my character large sized..."I believe that by RAW this requires a TWO six pack bribe.
Ok, I have to admit. I always tell my players that RAW requires a two six pack bribe but that may be for purely selfish reasons.
I'd allow it, but I'm a firm believer in wish being awesome.
If this is a player-cast spell, we're at the level where things like size aren't the biggest factors in determining success or failure in battle.
If this is a lower-level situation (e.g., a 2nd-level fighter finds a ring of three wishes), it's a little unbalancing in some situations and a downright detriment in others. In some campaigns the player would be riding high; in others, they'd be begging the ring for a "undo my previous wish" wish within a month.
And a wish is still just a ninth level spell. You can't really exceed that power. So if the GM feels other ninth level effects couldn't grant effects comparable to permanent "natural" changes then not even the dangerous version of wish would do so. Although bribing the GM is a good starting point for this... just try not to make him regret letting you do this if he does.
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It seems to me that is duplicating two Wizard/Sorcerer spells of 8th level or lower. #1 Enlarge Person and #2 Permanency. So I would say that permanently wishing a size increase, especially a two step, size increase would fall under:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)So you could end up being turned into something undesirable of the appropriate size.
I would turn the player into a hill giant, including significant penalties to intelligence and charisma, and covert 7 of his class level over to racial hit die.
Mister level 12 half-orc barbarian just became a level 5 hill giant barbarian. Wish fulfilled. You're now large.
And a wish is still just a ninth level spell.
That has to be the biggest understatement I have seen for a while.
The power of a wish is dependent on the source. The one from the ninth level spell is the weakest, wishes granted by beings who specifically grant them, i.e. egrets, efreeti lords, and divine beings are ascendingly more powerful.
While I see no basis for this in RAW (efreeti grant Wish as a spell like, so it is exactly like the spell), the Legacy of Fire AP certainly seems to indicate djinn and efreet have more control over Wishes than mortal casters do.
Polymorph any object into a giant would be permanent but dispellable.[/quote[
This looks like the ticket to me.
Wish-Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.Polymorph Any Object (Sorc/Wiz 8); Same Kingdom, Same Class, Equal or Lower Int= Permanent.
Strangely enough, we still end up in DM fiat territory. Polymorph Any Object is as Greater Polymorph, which is as Polymorph, which for humanoid forms works as Alter Self, which only covers Medium and Small size forms.
Its easy enough to just add Giant Form to the list in Polymorph though.
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If I were a DM being petitioned for this wish I'd be tempted to...well, it's kind of amazing to think of all the "be careful what you wish for"-genre horror stories out there that start with the premise "I wish I was BIG:" There was an episode of Twilight Zone about a frustrated jockey, every scene in Disney's 1951 Alice In Wonderland involving an "Eat Me" pastry, a frigging bit from Lamb Chop's Play-Along (it starts off well enough; she gets to do a dance number with Sherry Lewis toe-to-toe instead of having to ride on her shoulder or sit on a table, but it ends with a clip of the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade's Lamb Chop balloon), and of course, final-days 3.5 saw of the publication of Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, which included the gruesome story of how the Hag Countess went from being Lord of the layer of Malbolge to...being the layer of Malbolge....
Can the wish spell be used to permanently increase the size of a player?
I would like to use the spell to increase the size of my medium sized character to large or even huge size.
If so...Can I wish straight to huge size or would it take 2 wishes (large then huge)?
As mentioned, enlarge person + permanancy is allowed. I'd also allow a giant form I or giant form II spell to be made permanent with a wish. Note that size bonuses do not stack, so in either case the character cannot benefit from other size increases (this is explicitly stated in the enlarge person spell description: "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.").
Alternately, I'd allow a wish to act as a reincarnate spell into a specific humanoid race (including the giant subtype):
The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.
A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject's racial adjustments (since it is no longer necessarily of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject of the spell gains two permanent negative levels when it is reincarnated. If the subject is 1st level, it takes 2 points of Constitution drain instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can't be reincarnated). A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being reincarnated. A spellcasting creature that doesn't prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell.
I'd recommend using the giant form adjustments to Str, Dex, and Con. However, the character would not gain any racial HD. Of course, the character is now a giant, which can cause issues in non-giant communities and makes it more difficult/expensive to buy equipment, food, and lodging. On the positive side, since this is an instantaneous effect, it cannot be dispelled and the character can benefit from size increasing magic.
Finally, there's always juggernaut's pauldrons, which allow unlimited switching between enlarge person and normal size (among other benefits).
And a wish is still just a ninth level spell.That has to be the biggest understatement I have seen for a while.
Well I say it to stop silliness like ending all life on an entire plane with just one wish spell. There is a limit to what the spell can do... it is it's spell level.
Polymorph any object into a giant would be permanent but dispellable.This looks like the ticket to me.
Wish-Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.Polymorph Any Object (Sorc/Wiz 8); Same Kingdom, Same Class, Equal or Lower Int= Permanent.
Strangely enough, we still end up in DM fiat territory. Polymorph Any Object is as Greater Polymorph, which is as Polymorph, which for humanoid forms works as Alter Self, which only covers Medium and Small size forms.
Its easy enough to just add Giant Form to the list in Polymorph though.
Check the spell levels. Polymorph is a 5th-level spell; giant form I is a 7th-level spell. Allowing a 5th-level spell to duplicate a 7th-level spell effect causes problems with game balance (which was the big reason for Pathfinder separating the polymorph subschool spells into different spells by creature type in the first place; 3.x polymorph self/other was too powerful). Greater polymorph is also a 7th-level spell that allows the choice of a 6th-level polymorph spell effect (or lower).
Check the spell levels. Polymorph is a 5th-level spell; giant form I is a 7th-level spell. Allowing a 5th-level spell to duplicate a 7th-level spell effect causes problems with game balance (which was the big reason for Pathfinder separating the polymorph subschool spells into different spells by creature type in the first place; 3.x polymorph self/other was too powerful). Greater polymorph is also a 7th-level spell that allows the choice of a 6th-level polymorph spell effect (or lower).
No one is advocating letting a 5th level spell take place of a 7th level. But we aren't using a 5th level, or even 6th or 7th level spell, either.
Polymorph Any Object is as Greater Polymorph, not as Polymorph, and is an 8th level spell.
Greater Polymorph is a 7th level spell, that lets you pick between a bunch of 6th level spells. It uses spells one level lower to make up for the versatility of the single spell. I get that.
So Polymorph Any Object should definitely be powerful enough (8th level) to power a 7th level spell (as it already does, with Greater Polymorph).
The problem is that Polymorph Any Object states it lets you turn one creature (or even an object) into another creature (or object). So Giant would be a perfectly valid thing to become. The question is only how to adjudicate it. Giant Form is the natural choice, and should be added to what Polymorph Any Object can replicate.
The problem is that Polymorph Any Object states it lets you turn one creature (or even an object) into another creature (or object). So Giant would be a perfectly valid thing to become. The question is only how to adjudicate it. Giant Form is the natural choice, and should be added to what Polymorph Any Object can replicate.
Then you should have said "added to the list in polymorph any object." What you wrote was:
Its easy enough to just add Giant Form to the list in Polymorph though.
Yes, I could have been more clear.
You know sometimes your fingers don't keep up with your thoughts and you end up going back to edit what you said? Well, sometimes you don't catch the mistake.