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In a game I run, there is a cleric of Urgathoa who has successfully (barely) used the Command Undead feat to take over a Wraith. As intelligent undead, the Wraith gets a chance every 24 hours to break the hold of Command Undead. He just has to roll a 12 or better to make his save, so it's far from impossible.
When intelligent undead break free of control, does the cleric know right away through some supernatural ability that they no longer control it, or can the Wraith pretend to still be dominated until a time when he can most effectively turn on the party?
Side note, if they manage to kill the Young Adult Huge-sized dragon at the end of the module, with the wraith's assistance (especially through Con drain of the dragon), I'm going to have the dragon arise as a Dracolich far beyond their power to defeat, and it will become the new Big Bad for a sandbox campaign after the module.
"Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells."
From the Paizo.com SRD. http://paizo.com/prd/magic.html
Due to the wording I see the "you" in "you do not sense" as the caster otherwise it would have referred to the creature in "a creature" as "it."
That means yes, You know when it ends because it is a targeted spell. I do not know if this extends to hexes but without conflicted rules presented to me I would play it as such.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
While this isn't a spell, I think it's the best place to start for comparison. And as the Command Undead ability is powered by Channel Energy, it is supernatural.
However, the command undead ability it's an AoE (30ft burst) and not targetted. As such, it is clear if it succeeded the initial saving throw the cleric would not know, though the undead's action might reveal such.
Now, nothing is mentioned about what happens after the intitial saving throw, but I belive it functions exactly the same. If it is a tagretted ability the caster knows when the target succeeds, even if it's after the initial save. If it's not, then the caster never knows.
That means yes, You know when it ends because it is a targeted spell. I do not know if this extends to hexes but without conflicted rules presented to me I would play it as such.
Command Undead feat is not a targetted affect.
While this isn't a spell, I think it's the best place to start for comparison. And as the Command Undead ability is powered by Channel Energy, it is supernatural.However, the command undead ability it's an AoE (30ft burst) and not targetted. As such, it is clear if it succeeded the initial saving throw the cleric would not know, though the undead's action might reveal such.
Now, nothing is mentioned about what happens after the intitial saving throw, but I belive it functions exactly the same. If it is a tagretted ability the caster knows when the target succeeds, even if it's after the initial save. If it's not, then the caster never knows.
Your wording in that second paragraph has me confused but you brought some great information to the table.
Here's how I would play it:
The spell is targeted. The supernatural ability is AoE (I did not know this previously).
In this case: No. He only can tell by observation if he's got them. Although they fall under the effects of the spell, they have the supernatural ability, not the spell, cast upon them. The supernatural ability is an AoE which functions differently.
I think of it as reasonable. What you get for quantity is slightly less quality. It makes it better to use the actual spell against intelligent undead and the bursted channel in jams.
That means yes, You know when it ends because it is a targeted spell. I do not know if this extends to hexes but without conflicted rules presented to me I would play it as such.Command Undead feat is not a targetted affect.
You are correct. I was working from the spell, having missed that he had referred to the feat. The spell is targeted.
http://paizo.com/prd/spells/commandUndead.html
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Game-wise, this makes a lot of sense. Channel isn't meant to be used for a long-term control of undead to amass an army or rule over a demi-lich. It's used when you're surrounded and want to turn the tables. To extend the length of that ability to days goes outside the intended use. They intended that to be for individual rounds.
Excellent. I'll play it that way, since the game has a lot of new players in it (all of them), and I'm using it as a test bed to teach them how to think like a gamer. Having a wraith pet is cool, but this will teach that there can be repercussions for that kind of power. it will also teach that, for real nasty critters, Command should be used to incapacitate until the enemy can be safely and totally destroyed.
Right now the wraith is in a bag of holding. What will be amusing is if they try to use it in an attack... in daylight.
Oh, and if she uses it too often, it'll become a dread wraith... with too much HD for her to control it.
Game-wise, this makes a lot of sense. Channel isn't meant to be used for a long-term control of undead to amass an army or rule over a demi-lich. It's used when you're surrounded and want to turn the tables. To extend the length of that ability to days goes outside the intended use. They intended that to be for individual rounds.Excellent. I'll play it that way, since the game has a lot of new players in it (all of them), and I'm using it as a test bed to teach them how to think like a gamer. Having a wraith pet is cool, but this will teach that there can be repercussions for that kind of power. it will also teach that, for real nasty critters, Command should be used to incapacitate until the enemy can be safely and totally destroyed.
Right now the wraith is in a bag of holding. What will be amusing is if they try to use it in an attack... in daylight.
Oh, and if she uses it too often, it'll become a dread wraith... with too much HD for her to control it.
I actually edited my post to remove that quote you have for a reason (although you don't know I did because you saw it before I got a chance!)
Command Undead only lasts for minutes per level. If she's walking around with it then it loses the commanded condition after no more than 20 minutes.
Thankfully it's incorporeal so it can't rip the bag from inside but, being incorporeal, how did they get it into the bag? Did they shrink it?
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The duration of the Command Undead feat, done using channeled energy is permanent, not minutes per level. For intelligent undead it lasts until and unless they make a saving throw, for mindless undead it lasts forever or until released by the caster (usually so more can be dominated).
It is indeed permanent (or until an intelligent undead makes its daily save).
Regarding getting it into the bag, while it is incorporeal, it does occupy a space (which is why it's Medium size), even if it doesn't occupy it physically. If it can move from place to place, it can move through the opening of a bag of holding, and the interior of the bag is an extradimensional space so it's not going to be limited or squeezed in there.
The duration of the Command Undead feat, done using channeled energy is permanent, not minutes per level. For intelligent undead it lasts until and unless they make a saving throw, for mindless undead it lasts forever or until released by the caster (usually so more can be dominated).
It is indeed permanent (or until an intelligent undead makes its daily save).Regarding getting it into the bag, while it is incorporeal, it does occupy a space (which is why it's Medium size), even if it doesn't occupy it physically. If it can move from place to place, it can move through the opening of a bag of holding, and the interior of the bag is an extradimensional space so it's not going to be limited or squeezed in there.
I typically play that the bag ony opens up 10 inches or so. that would mean it would be too small to collect the creature.
The portable hole is the way to go for easy transport of creatures. Understandably, it would be more difficult to get unwilling creatures into it but them's the breaks.
I mean, if the bag of holding suddenly stretches to accommodate the size of the thing entering it, then why would anyone make a portable hole?
Cool info on the command undead effect length.
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That would be a house rule on the bag of holding size. The books say it's a cloth sack 2 foot by 4 foot, and having familiarity with some cloth sacks, I picture it as being like a laundry bag with a drawstring like this one. Even if it was 10 inches, I would say that the noncorporeal being of shadow has no problem adjusting its width accordingly. The interior space of a bag of holding is 30 cubic feet, which would be plenty of space for a Wraith.
Portable holes can't be cut open or otherwise destroyed from the inside and no weight limit. It can also be used as a trap.
That's a fairly good argument. I would disagree to the sack's ability to force a wraith to change the shape in which it occupies space but I would say that it makes just as much sense as that large a hole passing through the wraith and it not going through.
Interesting.
Also, 1) everyone will experience table variation and 2) you're the GM. If you say Gregory House, barbarian Medic shows up on a motorcycle, well I'll be damned if he doesn't look just like Hugh Laurie carrying a great sword on a rice rocket.