Touch of Rage Rules question


Rules Questions


Touch of Rage:
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Optimistic Gambler:
Optimistic Gambler
Benefit Effects that grant you morale bonuses persist 1d4 rounds longer than they normally would as a result.

And the questions:

1)With this Trait, if I use Touch of Rage on myself, will I get +1d4 rounds with it since it's a Morale effect?

2)If I can use it on myself and Optimistic Gambler applies: Does the damage only apply to physical attacks? Or can I use it to add some power to a spell as well?

3) If I Eldtrich Heritage the Orc Bloodline as a Barbarian, can I use this power while raging?

4) Is the damage boost multiplied on a critical hit?


Also, does this count like a spell like ability for the purpose of the bonus from the Imperious Bloodline's Heroic Echo?

Heroic Echo:
Heroic Echo (Su): At 3rd level, when you receive a morale bonus from any spell, spell-like ability, or magic item, including those you cast on yourself, that bonus increases by +1. At 9th level, this ability also applies to competence bonuses. If you receive a morale effect (or a competence effect at 9th level) that affects an area or multiple targets, as an immediate action you can share your increased bonus with all other recipients. This increase to other participants lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus. You can use this ability once per day, plus one time per three levels after 3rd.


1) Yes
2) The damage increase applies to physical weapons and rays. (see FAQ)
3) I'm fairly certain the answer is 'no', but right this moment I can't find anything beyond this non-official opinion to back that up
4) Yes, static numeric increases are multiplied on crits
5) Yes to Heroic Echo applying


I would say heroic echo does not work, as touch of rage is not a spell or spell like ablility, or a magic item. But the others do seem to work, you just helped me with my net character as I never noticed that trait before.


KainPen wrote:
I would say heroic echo does not work, as touch of rage is not a spell or spell like ablility, or a magic item. But the others do seem to work, you just helped me with my net character as I never noticed that trait before.

Touch of Rage is a spell-like ability from the Orc bloodline.


I stand corrected I thought it was SU not SP. It and power of Giants should be SU ability’s it make more sense. While the last power should be SP not SU, as it actual mimics transformation spell. Orc bloodline is totally broken. It is due for fix lol. I always thought SP had to mimic and existing spell, like copycat mimics mirror image. Touch of rage does not even come close to mimicking rage. The way it is you could also do quicken spell like ability on it 3 times a day.


KainPen wrote:
I stand corrected I thought it was SU not SP. It and power of Giants should be SU ability’s it make more sense. While the last power should be SP not SU, as it actual mimics transformation spell. Orc bloodline is totally broken. It is due for fix lol. I always thought SP had to mimic and existing spell, like copycat mimics mirror image. Touch of rage does not even come close to mimicking rage. The way it is you could also do quicken spell like ability on it 3 times a day.

The Touch of Rage ability has nothing to do with the spell "Rage" or a Barbarian's class ability, it just uses a similar word.

Spell-like abilities typically mimic spells, but they do not have to. Additionally, identifying, countering, interrupting, dispelling, etc of spell-like abilities is different from a Supernatural ability, so changing that type would change the power level.

And you cannot use Quicken Spell-Like Ability on Touch of Rage as it does not meet the qualifications for it:

Feat wrote:
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4.

As Touch of Rage (as indicated) does not actually duplicate a spell, there is no spell level to apply here. In the case of determining effective spell level for spell-like abilities that do not copy a spell, the effective spell level is set to be the highest level of spells that that character can cast. A level 10 caster would treat this as a level 5 spell, which is still higher than {1/2 * 10 (caster level) - 4}

Even if you could use Quicken on Touch of Rage, it's hardly game breaking. You would have to have an effective CL of 10, and so the bump for ToR would be +5.
For a caster, +5 to attack/damage/will saves at level 10 would effectively raise their attack to that of a full-BAB character, but since it is just raising attack and not BAB they are not gaining an extra attack.
For a non-caster (s/a the barbarian question posed), +5 to attack/damage/will certainly does step up their martial capability, but at the same time you're also getting into the character levels where spell casters start to really outshine martial characters, so who cares about the bump.


the bump is a problem when martial characters take it. the whole blood line is broken for martials to take before the bump. For a caster is not really a problem as it just gives them few extra options and a way if they do into melee and be effective. Character nets +12 to str, +4 con, immunity to fear, +6 natural armor, reach, increased weapon damage dice because weapon becomes larger with you and +6 to survial checks. yes it is a long feat chain. but it is an over powered feat chain to start with the bloodline. there is not a single feat tax in the chain for martials. skill focus survival, not a bad thing to take anyway for a martial. Touch of rage before this find was a nice buff you could do on other martials to help them out So i would not consider it a feat tax. You could argue you most martial use cha as dump stat, and never comes up. but you can actual dump 2 points in str settling that 16 str instead of 18 to start, giving you a 15 cha to start. you make up for the loss of it and 2 points while leveling that get 3x more then what you lost. There is no other feat chain out there are stronger than 5 wish spells. And just one feats grants over the power stronger than 5 wish spells. That is a free +150K gp to character wealth. That why the blood line is broken.

This little find just add to something that is already over powered and broken bloodline more so. +10 to hit and damage from touch of rage for 2 to 5 rounds. Add arcane strike with it and you just net +15 to hit and +21/+30 to damage depending on if weapon is two handed on every attack. Could you image a paladin with this bloodline and this trait or a two handed fighter. Mythic version of the feat with this bloodline is even worse. as it is a 2 feat and 1 mythic feat chain all the blood line powers and the last one.


KainPen wrote:

This little find just add to something that is already over powered and broken bloodline more so. +10 to hit and damage from touch of rage for 2 to 5 rounds. Add arcane strike with it and you just net +15 to hit and +21/+30 to damage depending on if weapon is two handed on every attack. Could you image a paladin with this bloodline and this trait or a two handed fighter.

You're most definitely dealing with a feat tax to make this work. Additionally, as I pointed out, by the time a martial character can really begin to see the "overpowered" benefits of the bloodline, the casters are already overpowering them. So what... at level 10 your fighter/barbarian/paladin has a +5 to attack and damage. You're burning a standard action to make this happen, running the risk of getting a bad roll on that d4 and only having it last for one round (provided you took the trait mentioned and minus any AoO's you get before your next turn) and still going to miss if your enemy has Displacement or Mirror Images.

+10 to hit? You would have to be a level 20 character to get that bonus from this bloodline, and if a +10 to hit is game breaking at level 20 then your world must be completely devoid of spellcasters. I'm also not sure where you're getting +30 to damage, unless you're adding up the bonus damage from iterative attacks. If that's the case...

A level 10 full bab character with haste would have 3 attacks. So from Touch of Rage that's at most +15 damage in one turn, assuming all attacks hit and the character can make a full attack. If you add Arcane Strike, that goes to +21 at most without outside intervention (i.e. Moment of Greatness). A dual-wielding character will see slightly more benefit from this, but will also be ridiculously feat starved (I imagine that only a fighter could pull that off). So assuming your 2-handed martial lands all 3 attacks, let's estimate total damage at around 102 to ONE target (average of 6d6 is 21, plus Power attack 27, plus average strength{6} 27, plus discussed abilities 21, plus +2 weapon).

The collective damage from a CL10 fireball if it hits multiple targets is higher. The damage from an Acidic Spray is higher. The battlefield control capability of a Dominated enemy plus said enemy's damage output is more dangerous.
How is this broken?

As a side-note, Arcane Strike adds to damage, not to hit, and you would have to either gain arcane spellcasting from another class or from another character trait in order for a Paladin to pick up the Arcane Strike feat.


Also of note... Eldritch Heritage counts as the character's level - 2 until level 17. So the +5 above is actually a +4.


It should be +24 at level at level 20 +10 from touch of rage, +5 from arcane strike, +6, for a total of 21 points of damage. I missed added the 1.5x str damage for two handed weapon. It is only 3 higher for +24,that is not including weapon dice damage increase do to increase in size so 27 to 30 is about correct depending on the weapon. this bloodline increases your str by 12 points that where the extra damage comes from. beauty of it is it does not even have to be melee weapon.

before you start encounter in a room or cavern, enlarge yourself that last for min or longer, next round before rogue or someone opens door, do this ability, it going to last minimum of two rounds. after the door is open full attack with bow. All you need is +1 adaptive Composite bow. The huge bonus to hit means you are not likely going to miss, you will more than likely hit with every attack. yes a few things can mess it up. yes casters are still stronger, but this is still a huge bump for any martial, there no reason not to take it, It is the strongest feat chain martials can take all it does in improved the greatly if they take this bloodline. Other bloodlines not so much and there are feat tax in those, by having to take knowledge instead of survival in skill focus. Also since you don't dump cha, use magic device becomes very viable use and can make you just as potent as caster as you can cast there spells off of scrolls and use items they normal would only use.

Arcane strike is easy enough to get, another background trait, race are options to get and feats. So there could be a feat tax in getting that. but for getting all the nice perks of orc bloodline there are no taxes as everything it gives you is highly useable by martials.

half elf/ranger urban/fighter is made for this bloodline. It is the perfect feat chain, you take arcane talent as feat, take read magic, now scrolls are easy use magic device checks because that is one less check you have to make. You get skill focus as bonus feat anyway, take Survival, now you can track like a champ or as if you never multi classed. The Bonus feats you get as fighter, can be used on combat feats, to increase hit and damage further, while your normal feat are used on this chain.

you can actual get the power from them sooner with a simple magic item you end up +2 levels higher than your actual level, you don't get early access to them because the feats stop it but, you do get an increase in power and it 4 levels higher when you get the last feat as it gets rid of that -2 total level thing in the other feats. With the Mythic version of the feat and that magic item you cut out 3 feat get all the powers including the capstone and get them 2 levels sooner than normal.

My next character is going to be half elf/ranger urban/fighter brawler used in example the above I was looking for my 2nd background trait since I was taking only dangerously curious . looks like I found it. I was going to use touch of rage to buff the archer in the group but I can buff myself as option now also for first round of combat. Hell I think I may be able to out damage the archer with this build and out shoot him with no archery feats taken.


KainPen wrote:
~Stuff~

OK, I can tell that no matter how logical my counter argument, you are always going to feel that this is overpowered. You're arguing about damage output at a level of the game where wizards can reshape existence in 60 seconds or less. This ability combo doesn't make the sky fall, the wizard does.


Sidebar: Would touch of rage work with the spell enervation? instead of doing d4 negative level would it do d4+the bonus from ToR in negative levels?

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