The spell doesn't allow "you" to attack at range. You manifest a magical weapon which attacks as you direct (but you do not "control" or use your action to manipulate). So your first premise isn't correct.
Your second premise is absolutely correct, it doesn't get to benefit from feats you may possess. So, it seems clear it should take the penalties from shooting at an enemy with cover or engaged in melee combat. Yes, it makes the spell not particularly good for clerics of deities whose favored weapon is a bow.
The spell doesn't allow "you" to attack at range. You manifest a magical weapon which attacks as you direct (but you do not "control" or use your action to manipulate).If you direct the weapon at range, then the melee spiritual weapons should take *the same penalty* if the target is in melee, since you're aiming at range. The nature of the penalty is the difficulty to get the true aim, right?
No. You aren't aiming.
Think of it like this. It's like a magically animated intelligent weapon capable of moving itself and you tell it to attack "that goblin there". Then it does it on its own.
You have nothing to do with the attack it's making other than telling it whom to attack. It's not a ranged attack and doesn't take ranged attack penalties, unless it's a ranged weapon. The weapon moves to the enemy, attacks, and follow it around until its directed to move to another target or meets the conditions under which it returns to you.
Now, if your deities favored weapon was a reach weapon you could take penalties for soft cover, etc. But that's a specific problem to how reach weapons function, not melee weapons.
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There is no indication within the spell that a spiritual crossbow acts any differently than a spiritual longsword.
Once commanded to attack a target, it follows them around and strikes them. Following the directions for resolving these attacks found within the spell description.
It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon
It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one. Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon.
From the spell description.
Doesn't say anything about if a ranged weapon version takes penalties if "firing" into melee or not.
Says as a spell not a ray.
Personally I'd just play it as written and not distinguish between weapon types other than described in the spell ie crit threat range. The form of the weapon is "fluff" after all and IMO you shouldn't be penalized because of that.
If your interpretation of the spell is that it creates an actual weapon of the type of your deity's favored weapon, and it hangs around and attacks as you direct, then the weapon should function like the regular weapon with all bonuses/penalties. If your interpretation is that the form is irrelevant except for damage dice and crit range (which I think is flavorless twaddle), then no matter what form it takes it moves to melee range and attacks and the melee/ranged distinction is essentially irrelevant, as it's not really a missile weapon.
If your interpretation of the spell is that it creates an actual weapon of the type of your deity's favored weapon, and it hangs around and attacks as you direct, then the weapon should function like the regular weapon with all bonuses/penalties. If your interpretation is that the form is irrelevant except for damage dice and crit range (which I think is flavorless twaddle), then no matter what form it takes it moves to melee range and attacks and the melee/ranged distinction is essentially irrelevant, as it's not really a missile weapon.
The weapon type for a spiritual weapon doesn't affect the damage dice.
The spell only does what it says it does.
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
Is your character shooting or throwing? No.
Cover
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack…
Are you making a ranged attack? No.
Is it even a ranged attack? No.
Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell's range, not the weapon's normal range increment, and switching targets still is a move action.
This implies to me (since it says range increment, not maximum range) that you could fire a spiritual weapon bow further than the spell range, with a -2 penalty for each increment (of the spell's range) beyond the first (the bow is not going beyond the limit and disappearing, ammo is and it not designated as disappearing).
I realize this is a stretch, but it should have disqualified missile weapons if it wasn't going to have them function differently. Or it could have said missile weapons appear and are treated as clubs when they attack foes 'at a distance' but as if in melee. Or at least have specified that they attack as equivalent to melee weapons. It's irritating (and lets in other options) that it even mentions range increment.
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.Is your character shooting or throwing? No.
Cover
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack…Are you making a ranged attack? No.
Is it even a ranged attack? No.
Since it says 'as you direct' I think it is your attack. Whether ranged or not they unfortunately didn't completely close the loop.
Since it says 'as you direct' I think it is your attack. Whether ranged or not they unfortunately didn't completely close the loop.
The loop is closed.
A weapon made of force appears and attacks foes at a distance, as you direct it,
It does say 'as you direct it', this is true. But it also says the weapon is what is attacking. So, if the weapon is doing the attacks, what does it mean to direct it?
It strikes the opponent you designate, starting with one attack in the round the spell is cast and continuing each round thereafter on your turn.
Ah, you essentially just sick it on your foes, much like you would an attack dog.
Each round after the first, you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target. If you do not, the weapon continues to attack the previous round's target.
Here it says it takes an action get it to stop attack attacking a target and go after a different one. And that if you don't do anything at all, it still keeps going round after round.
On any round that the weapon switches targets, it gets one attack.
We can see fairly clearly by this point that it is the weapon which gets the attacks, and which is doing the attacking.
All you do is point out who it attacks (as you direct), and then it goes and tries to attack them.
Since it says 'as you direct' I think it is your attack. Whether ranged or not they unfortunately didn't completely close the loop.The loop is closed.
We can see fairly clearly by this point that it is the weapon which gets the attacks, and which is doing the attacking.
All you do is point out who it attacks (as you direct), and then it goes and tries to attack them.
As to you first assertion - evidence?
I will definitely agree on the second, but if the attack can be ranged, why is the weapon not 'you' in your rules quote? If you summon a monster and they fire a bow, they're a 'you'.
Remy you are mostly right, but if it manifests as ranged weapon it functions like any other ranged weapon attack.
No, your character isn't attacking or making a ranged attack. But a manifested bow is. It takes all the penalties normally associated with doing so.
Remy you are mostly right, but if it manifests as ranged weapon it functions like any other ranged weapon attack.
No, your character isn't attacking or making a ranged attack. But a manifested bow is. It takes all the penalties normally associated with doing so.
It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon...from the spell description.
I don't think its absolute either way.
They don't define what it means to strike as a spell, except to say that damage reduction doesn't apply. The words have no clear meaning except to say that damage reduction doesn't apply.
Hey, I'd rather it say that it never adopt any aspect of the weapon its imitating but the crit range and multiplier, but it doesn't say that well enough. My current Oracle's deity uses a scythe, which avoids the issue entirely.
In fact, I don't like that the range of the spell appears to be the range increment for a missile weapon spiritual weapon - it's going to bite me in the butt some day. I will rule otherwise, as you seem to be indicating, but I'm going to get an argument.
Remy you are mostly right, but if it manifests as ranged weapon it functions like any other ranged weapon attack.
No, your character isn't attacking or making a ranged attack. But a manifested bow is. It takes all the penalties normally associated with doing so.
It only _appears_ to be a ranged weapon. Actually, it's a spell that has little common with the weapons.
When you're attacking with a ranged weapon, you may take a penalty for firing in melee - or not, if you have the right feat. But it's YOUR penalty, not the weapon's. You may be a very skilled bowman and have some bonuses too, but they are also your bonuses, not the weapon's.
The spiritual bow has none of your bonuses and none of your penalties, so it fires in melee freely.
That it has nothing to do with weapons is wrong, since it mentions range increments, not to mention critical range and multiplier. This is one viable interpretation, and falls in 'it's a force the pummels people no matter what it looks like', but then there's absolutely no difference between melee and missile weapons. Unfortunately, some of the text implies that there is a difference between weapons that goes beyond critical stats.
Its treated "as a spell" which generally means it only needs LOS for it to work. The "it takes the form of the Deities weapon" is fluff.
The wording isn't clear but I wouldn't penalise a player because they picked the "wrong" deity for this spell to work optimally.
Perhaps a lil' clarification is needed regarding this?
That it has nothing to do with weapons is wrong, since it mentions range increments, not to mention critical range and multiplier.Yes, it mentions range increments. Guess how? "Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell's range, not the weapon's normal range increment". And the spell's range is NOT a range increment here: it's absolute maximum range! Read this: "If the weapon goes beyond the spell range, if it goes out of your sight, of if you are not directing it, the weapon returns to you and hovers". Thus, ANY weapon (including ranged) goes close to the spell target and attacks it.
This is one viable interpretation, and falls in 'it's a force the pummels people no matter what it looks like', but then there's absolutely no difference between melee and missile weapons. Unfortunately, some of the text implies that there is a difference between weapons that goes beyond critical stats.Which text implies there's a difference? I see right the opposite. All weapons are treated in the same way. The spell uses the weapon's critical range and multiplier, right, but they are more or less balanced for all weapons: better range usually means weaker multiplier.
I wish it had said it uses the spell's range instead of the weapon's maximum range. Then there would be a clear answer. As it stands, nothing you're citing resolves this - it could generate a magical crossbow that sits there next to you (it says 'A weapon made of force appears and attacks foes at a distance' which is not even clear) and shoots at people as you direct. Its range increment is equal to the spell's range, so it gets minuses beyond that. If you tell it to shoot someone and it would have to exceed the maximum range to be able to target them (they run around a corner, for instance) it will come back and hover and wait for orders. Only its force ammunition is going beyond the spell's range. In the interest of game balance, I suggest this interpretation be subject to standard missile penalties.
I'd rather this just have said, 'your deities favored melee weapon (if any)' and avoided the entire issue (using alignment if there is none). Spiritual Hammer anyone? Or it could have just clarified the missile weapon scenario further, if it was the intention to let that in.
There is a clear answer. You're focused on the wrong bits.
Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell's range, not the weapon's normal range increment
Even if.
Most of the time this spell makes a melee weapon... but even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell's range.
That 'even if' bit is telling us to handle the ranged weapon version the same as a melee weapon version regarding the spell's range.
Besides, there is nothing in the spell text to suggest that this spell creates ammunition of any sort... so what exactly is a spiritual crossbow supposed to shoot? Imaginary bolts?
All spiritual weapons "strike" their targets, and they do it as a spell.
There is a clear answer. You're focused on the wrong bits.
Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell's range, not the weapon's normal range incrementEven if.
Most of the time this spell makes a melee weapon... but even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell's range.
That 'even if' bit is telling us to handle the ranged weapon version the same as a melee weapon version regarding the spell's range.
Besides, there is nothing in the spell text to suggest that this spell creates ammunition of any sort... so what exactly is a spiritual crossbow supposed to shoot? Imaginary bolts?
All spiritual weapons "strike" their targets, and they do it as a spell.
Hey, I wish the text was as clear as you think it to be - but I still don't buy they allow a priest of the god of archery to create a bow and bash people over the head with it because it has no ammo...as I said I'd rather they'd disallowed it, or clarified it.
Hey, I wish the text was as clear as you think it to be - but I still don't buy they allow a priest of the god of archery to create a bow and bash people over the head with it because it has no ammo...as I said I'd rather they'd disallowed it, or clarified it.There is a clear answer. You're focused on the wrong bits.
Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell's range, not the weapon's normal range incrementEven if.
Most of the time this spell makes a melee weapon... but even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell's range.
That 'even if' bit is telling us to handle the ranged weapon version the same as a melee weapon version regarding the spell's range.
Besides, there is nothing in the spell text to suggest that this spell creates ammunition of any sort... so what exactly is a spiritual crossbow supposed to shoot? Imaginary bolts?
All spiritual weapons "strike" their targets, and they do it as a spell.
You're free to visualize or describe it however you like. Mechanically though, there is no difference between a longsword and a crossbow spiritual weapon.
You're free to visualize or describe it however you like. Mechanically though, there is no difference between a longsword and a crossbow spiritual weapon.
That makes no sense. Why bother mentioning what the weapon looks like if they're all intended to function the same.
The spell itself makes notes about how weapons are supposed to be different from one another.
Why include information about how different things funciton if they're all supposed to funciton the same.
The spell is poorly worded, probably a hold over from earlier editions, and could use a rewrite or clarificaiton.
You're free to visualize or describe it however you like. Mechanically though, there is no difference between a longsword and a crossbow spiritual weapon.There is a clear answer. You're focused on the wrong bits.
Hey, I wish the text was as clear as you think it to be - but I still don't buy they allow a priest of the god of archery to create a bow and bash people over the head with it because it has no ammo...as I said I'd rather they'd disallowed it, or clarified it.
This is inconsistent. If you're claiming there is no ammunition, then there is limitations on how it works.
Ranged Attacks: With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon's maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is 10 range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.If they'd meant it to work as you describe, the most accurate phrasing would have been 'maximum range' as listed above, not 'range increment'. As worded you're using a missile weapon to fire up to 5 or 10 spell ranges.