Everyone loves the Lord of the Rings world, and I am no exception, this is why me and a few friends have decided to try and make some rule changes to make the Pathfinder rules more like the Lord of the Rings world... This is just a bit of fun for us and a working progress and we would welcome any input.
What are our main goals:
1) Restrict magic (and magic items) without making them too weak no-one wants to play them.
2) Remove any problem abilities and feats.
3) Edit races to be more in keeping with Lord of the Rings
4) Add corruption
5) Make dragons (and other big monster) as dangerous as they are in the books.
6) Make it feel more gritty.
7) Give the characters a way of being more heroic and doing those stunts they can do in the books and films.
Here is what we have so far:
Lord Of The Rings Pathfinder RPG Conversion
Please let us know what you think, if it is something you would be interested in playing and anything you think we missed or need to change.
Many thanks :)
I'm surprised that Halflings don't have a resist corruption ability, as their lack of grand ambition and value of simple things were the entire point of trusting them with the One Ring.
Based upon your goals, and my knowledge of LOTR, I'll comment on each one.
1) Depending one what is meant by 'magic' items are not horribly uncommon. Elvish Blades, Numenoreon Palantirs, Cloaks (and even rope) made by elves, Wizard Staffs, Rings, Phials of Light, Blades from Barrows, Dwarven Mithral Armor. Now, they are less kitted out than a typical Pathfinder Character, but compared to most fantasy books, the characters in LOTR actually have quite a bit of bling. Spellcasting is a different story. The only caster in our nine person party is Gandalf, who is a freakin angel. The NPCs that have 'spells' are all extremely extraordinary too (Galadriel for instance is not just old, she is ancient, the granddaughter I believe of one of the very first elves.) If you want to keep the LOTR flavor, I think I would pretty much remove PC casting completely. Some sort of ritual magic, like that presented in Deep Magic would fit very well though.
2) I'm not sure I agree with your list of feats/abilities being problems (nerfing evasion to uselessness for example) and I'm not sure how some of those match up with LOTR particularly.
3) The original D&D races were pretty much modeled on LOTR to begin with. Dunedain should probably not be humans, they are actually 1/2 elves (well, less than 1/2 but humans with elven blood, enough to make them very different from regular regular humans.) I don't see LOTR elves as being very resistant to corruption, although they would probably be a 25 point buy in comparison to everyone else being 15, although that obviously wouldn't work if you want elves to be a playable race.
4) I'm not sure I like your corruption mechanic, corruption in LOTR is subtle. I also think their should be a distinctly different flavor between doing bad stuff and having your will slowly overcome by a magical artifact.
5) Dragons and Balrog in the books are plot devices. They are pretty much beyond 'dangerous.' That said, I think the fairly wholesale nerfing you have done would make most Pathfinder monsters very dangerous compared to their normal CR.
6) I like Vitality concept, but be aware, that just about any critical hit will likely bring a character down, if not actually kill them outright.
7) I think point 6 and point 7 are in direct opposition. Also, the books and the films are very different in this regard. Legolas is pretty cool in the books, but he doesn't go around climbing Olifants with crazy hollywood acrobatics and killing them on his own. We won't even speak of the crazy action stunts in the Hobbit movies.
I'm surprised that Halflings don't have a resist corruption ability, as their lack of grand ambition and value of simple things were the entire point of trusting them with the One Ring.
QFT
If you actually want it to resemble the LotR more closely, you have to ban all spellcasters. There were only 5 wizards in the whole world, and they were actually avatars of angels. The only druid was one of those 5 wizards.
There were no clerics, of any persuasion. Rangers lacked any spellcasting, so were just survivalist fighter types. Bards existed, but had no magical abilities and simply played music and told stories. Legendary figures like Galadriel had some spell-like powers.
Most dangerous monsters were unstoppable without magical assistance, usually from weaponry that had been enchanted a long time in the past by elves or dwarves using methods that were no longer available to living creatures.
It's not much fun. The Middle Earth Roleplaying Game (MERP) was a cut-down version of Rolemaster. It used most of the full rules but simply declared that any character who reached 10th level (the equivalent of 5th level or so in PF) were either hunted down and killed by the forces of darkness or sought refuge with eg Elrond. Effectively, they had to be retired before they could become powerful enough to make any important changes to the setting.
1. I use a set of house rules to replace the vast majority of magic items with inborn bonuses (to even out the 'power' part of magic items. I can link you if you want, and there are a bunch of others floating around on the forums. Aragorn was badass with any sword. He didnt HAVE to have a magic sword to measure up to challenges.
As for magic, thats trickier. Magic is quite different if still present in middle earth. It depends on how much you want to change. If you want to get a complete middle earth feel you are going to need to do a bunch of things. First off, change how hitpoints work. In standard pathfinder, all hitpoint loss is treated as a grievous injury that requires time and/or magic to heal. It is assumed you will have access to such magic. Aragorn didnt get stabbed all the time when he fought, he just got knocked around a bit, maybe worn down, and occasionally cut. But he didnt get a sword through the guts most fights.
I would use something like This basically making anything but crits, failed saves, or the hit that actually drops you 'stamina damage' which represents a wearing down of the character, and wears off after a short rest.
The reason for this change, magic has to change big time. It probably should barely exist as it does. There are no clerics that just walk around healing everyone, and only the most potent characters have healing magic of any kind. Arcane magic is similarly limited, theres no mage's mansion, or other stuff like that. At most theres a bolt of fire or lightning and a light spell. I mean gandalf is a 'wizard' and how many spells does he actually cast through the whole trilogy, 5? 6?
I would for sure ditch all 9 level spell casters outright. I would also probably replace normal magic with Riven Magic. Basically there are very limited effects particularly if you include my suggestion for #5 and 6. THe riven mage is still a viable class, but it cant do what the wizard or cleric can do. And he shouldnt be able to in middle earth.
3) This you need to be careful with. Otherwise everyone is gonna want to be an elf. You need to think long and hard how to handle this without messing up the whole of the balance.
If it were me, I would put high elves on the level of the drow noble (with changes obviously, but that severity). Dunedain and their ilk somewhere around aasimars, and normal humans, dwarves, and halflings as normal. Also I would probably place the majority of wood elves as elves are portrayed in the core rules. But, Everyone not a high elf would get a significant boon at 1st level. Possibly a free npc class level (expert, warrior or adept) and elves would not, to bring some kind of balance to low level characters.
4) I'll let others comment on this one.
5) E6. Seriously, E6 is the best way to do this. No one in middle earth was over 6th level anyway. Gandalf was just a 1st level wizard with a +20 level adjustment race.
6) Also E6, plus the other mentioned changes should do this.
7) Mythic tiers. But strictly control what powers they get access to (to avoid some of the over the top stuff). I probably wouldnt even give whole mythic tiers, just a mythic path, and specifically assigned mythic abilities that fit the theme and the capability of the character. This will let them do above and beyond sort of stuff, even at low level, but it keeps things from getting the cartoon super hero feel of higher pathfinder levels.
Thank you all for the input :)
Yeah magic items are are around in the lord of the rings, but they are more restricted than in pathfinder. Kolokotroni that would be great if you can link me to that.
Wizards are an odd thing, it should be a really high level adjustment race if I want to have it like gandalf. He is a a Maia and only 5 of them are known as the Wizards of the world, but there are more than 5 Maia... However the 2 blue Wizards were said to have gone to the far south and east starting cults of magic, this shows that it is possible that the mortal races can learn the magic of the Maia. I know this is very "loose" but in every game someone will want to play the wizard like gandalf and as a heroic party why am I to forbid that, but I want to keep the power balance.
Dunedain are very much human however the elven blood in them gave them longer life, living to 3 times the age of an average human.
Yeah elves are better than other races but I do want them to be playable from level 1 so I have to bring them back down to the same level as everyone, I will have to think on the elves for now... I may change the hobbit spell resistance and the elf corruption resistance around... not sure why I did it that way around really haha.
Yeah the corruption magic was rubbish and rushed so I will change that. I will have a look at white wolfs old WOD and come up with something a lot better.
I do like the E6 system and will have to look into it a bit more :)
Hero points would work well in a LOTR setting. They allow for extra actions, movement, retaking saves, pretty much anything you want them to do actually. They are a good way to make characters feel special as they can suddenly do things most can't.
Hero points would work well in a LOTR setting. They allow for extra actions, movement, retaking saves, pretty much anything you want them to do actually. They are a good way to make characters feel special as they can suddenly do things most can't.
I did toy with the idea of hero point but then opted for the use of Vitality and spending it to do similar things, this way it shows an exertion of energy and also means a character has to be careful when the use it as it will weaken them, same thing for magic.
I toyed with the issue of elves being uber-powerful in a Middle Earth game I ran myself with a home brew system, and then realised that actually it isn't an issue. Yes, elves are much more potent than average people, but they are actually on a par with Tolkien's heroic humans. Give Elves a Level-4 penalty and make all other starting characters Level 5, and you're sorted. Middle Earth doesn't tell stories about 1st level characters (except for Halflings, and they have 9th level Plot Armour, so they only *look* like they're 1st level)
You can keep some magic in - healing spells, Detect Traps, and basically anything that you could treat as a super skill or herbalism. There are some magic practitioners who aren't Istari - Elves commonly exhibit traits that ignorant humans might call magic, though they wouldn't recognise it as such. There is also mention of black magic being undertaken by the numenoreans, so it does exist. But it's not generally of the spell-casting type and definitely not flashy Fly, Fireball type effects. Probably 0-2nd level only.
Dunedain are very much like the Azlanti of Golarian - perfect humans. Again, this could easily be hand-waved away if the starting level is above L1.
In terms of hero points, one way I distinguished humans and Halflings from the Elves and Dwarves is with these. Tolkien writes of the elves being "bound by fate", whereas it's implied humans have the ability to create their own destinies. I felt this was easily reflect in giving humans the ability to occasionally counteract the dice rolls, whereas Elves are always stuck with whatever comes up. Tolkien doesn't say where Dwarves fit on the scale, but then they were almost an accidental addition that don't fit neatly into his cosmology.
However, ultimately a lot depends on when you want to set the game. The parameters of play are very different in 1st age, 2nd age, early-mid 3rd age, etc. etc.
Ok so I am going to go with the level adjustment for Eldar and leave the silven where they are (allowing people to play them as per usual)
Spells, I agree that healing is there more than any other form of magic yet no real cleric style people, this is why I opted for the druid over anything else, there are many druid type of people in the lord of the rings, it just seems to fit better.
Hmm now the concept of humans and hobbits being able to tempt fate and elves not being able to is one that interests me as it could lessen the level adjustment if incorporated into rules and is something I will defiantly test.
This is true, we originally wrote the rules to design a game set after the Lord of the Rings books but decided to come up with general rules just for fun :)
I have updated the document and changed a few things.
I have tried to make Corruption more fun, more detailed and a slower process... Any extra ideas for the tables would be much appreciated.
I have edited high elves to be a level adjustment race, but haven't actually finished with them so probably best ignore them for now haha XD but I am trying to make them more like Drow but with a few changes.
Thank you all for the input :)
Yeah magic items are are around in the lord of the rings, but they are more restricted than in pathfinder. Kolokotroni that would be great if you can link me to that.
Wizards are an odd thing, it should be a really high level adjustment race if I want to have it like gandalf. He is a a Maia and only 5 of them are known as the Wizards of the world, but there are more than 5 Maia... However the 2 blue Wizards were said to have gone to the far south and east starting cults of magic, this shows that it is possible that the mortal races can learn the magic of the Maia. I know this is very "loose" but in every game someone will want to play the wizard like gandalf and as a heroic party why am I to forbid that, but I want to keep the power balance.
Dunedain are very much human however the elven blood in them gave them longer life, living to 3 times the age of an average human.
Yeah elves are better than other races but I do want them to be playable from level 1 so I have to bring them back down to the same level as everyone, I will have to think on the elves for now... I may change the hobbit spell resistance and the elf corruption resistance around... not sure why I did it that way around really haha.
Yeah the corruption magic was rubbish and rushed so I will change that. I will have a look at white wolfs old WOD and come up with something a lot better.
I do like the E6 system and will have to look into it a bit more :)
My christmas tree replacement rules.Thank you all for the input :)
Yeah magic items are are around in the lord of the rings, but they are more restricted than in pathfinder. Kolokotroni that would be great if you can link me to that.
Wizards are an odd thing, it should be a really high level adjustment race if I want to have it like gandalf. He is a a Maia and only 5 of them are known as the Wizards of the world, but there are more than 5 Maia... However the 2 blue Wizards were said to have gone to the far south and east starting cults of magic, this shows that it is possible that the mortal races can learn the magic of the Maia. I know this is very "loose" but in every game someone will want to play the wizard like gandalf and as a heroic party why am I to forbid that, but I want to keep the power balance.
Dunedain are very much human however the elven blood in them gave them longer life, living to 3 times the age of an average human.
Yeah elves are better than other races but I do want them to be playable from level 1 so I have to bring them back down to the same level as everyone, I will have to think on the elves for now... I may change the hobbit spell resistance and the elf corruption resistance around... not sure why I did it that way around really haha.
Yeah the corruption magic was rubbish and rushed so I will change that. I will have a look at white wolfs old WOD and come up with something a lot better.
I do like the E6 system and will have to look into it a bit more :)
That's a pretty cool idea, I like it
I too hate having to buy +X stat item and +X weapon and so on just to keep up with the power of monsters, this is a nice simple way of altering that... I will defiantly give it thought :)
My christmas tree replacement rules.Thank you all for the input :)
Yeah magic items are are around in the lord of the rings, but they are more restricted than in pathfinder. Kolokotroni that would be great if you can link me to that.
Wizards are an odd thing, it should be a really high level adjustment race if I want to have it like gandalf. He is a a Maia and only 5 of them are known as the Wizards of the world, but there are more than 5 Maia... However the 2 blue Wizards were said to have gone to the far south and east starting cults of magic, this shows that it is possible that the mortal races can learn the magic of the Maia. I know this is very "loose" but in every game someone will want to play the wizard like gandalf and as a heroic party why am I to forbid that, but I want to keep the power balance.
Dunedain are very much human however the elven blood in them gave them longer life, living to 3 times the age of an average human.
Yeah elves are better than other races but I do want them to be playable from level 1 so I have to bring them back down to the same level as everyone, I will have to think on the elves for now... I may change the hobbit spell resistance and the elf corruption resistance around... not sure why I did it that way around really haha.
Yeah the corruption magic was rubbish and rushed so I will change that. I will have a look at white wolfs old WOD and come up with something a lot better.
I do like the E6 system and will have to look into it a bit more :)
That's a pretty cool idea, I like it
I too hate having to buy +X stat item and +X weapon and so on just to keep up with the power of monsters, this is a nice simple way of altering that... I will defiantly give it thought :)
Glad you like it. It always seemed frustrating to me that this kind of replacability was built into the game.
The idea here is if it makes sense for the story for someones grandad to bequeeth him 'ignus, the flamming sword of light' you can do that here, without the player being interested in replacing Ignus at 6th level with +2 flaming sword #245345. He just gets a flaming sword (no +x) when its story appropriate, and keeps it through his career. Like sting, or orcist, or any other number of special blades in the LOTR. Because in the end a straight flaming sword is +1d6 fire damage. Good for sure, but its not game changing, even at level 1.
It also leaves room for some of the cool items that often get tossed in the 'loot to be sold pile' because they sit in the headband, belt, or cloak slot.
...
Yeah I definitely agree that a sword should be able to be used through the entire adventure. I'm going to add a rule about no +X bonus is needed on a weapon before adding a magic property, also I really want to say no magic weapon can be created without first naming the weapon (as part of the enchanting process), that would really give it a LotR feel haha.
...Yeah I definitely agree that a sword should be able to be used through the entire adventure. I'm going to add a rule about no +X bonus is needed on a weapon before adding a magic property, also I really want to say no magic weapon can be created without first naming the weapon (as part of the enchanting process), that would really give it a LotR feel haha.
In my house rules, crafting feats are not availble normally (except scrolls wands and potions) for the most part, creating a magic item requires special rituals known only to a few beings. Which is a good choice for lotr I think. Want a magic sword? Go find one in a barrow or something, or have gifted elven craftsman make it. Otherwise, heres a normal one.
In my house rules, crafting feats are not availble normally (except scrolls wands and potions) for the most part, creating a magic item requires special rituals known only to a few beings. Which is a good choice for lotr I think. Want a magic sword? Go find one in a barrow or something, or have gifted elven craftsman make it. Otherwise, heres a normal one....Yeah I definitely agree that a sword should be able to be used through the entire adventure. I'm going to add a rule about no +X bonus is needed on a weapon before adding a magic property, also I really want to say no magic weapon can be created without first naming the weapon (as part of the enchanting process), that would really give it a LotR feel haha.
Yeah that's pretty much what I am after with LotR, hence why I banned crafting feats, and seeing as wands, scrolls and potions don't exist there are no need for the feats.