Reflex Save, Evasion, Uncanny dodge – Applicable? How?

[Gwiber]

Sometimes planning an encounter for some people is a pain int eh backside, particularly for characters with evasion and Uncanny Dodge.

In this case, before it happens. I want to know how they apply. Or if they apply.

I have an NPC who is going to throw a small glass vial that upon impact, acts as a modified version of Obscuring Mist. The mist will spread out as per the spell but because it is meant to be “heavy” it will only reach 2 squares in height, and then slowly dissipate in a few rounds, more rapidly than Obscuring Mist should.

Assuming the PC's are caught in it (And they should be. Its AOE and I plan on going first for sake of the encounter), the mist has a secondary property. Its highly humid, and flammable.

Presuming, since the fight will take place in somewhat tight quarters, I can drop a flame into this mess the next round (Or maybe the first there is more than one NPC), when it goes off (like a fireball; but not as much damage closer to the base of Fireball in the effected squares) I know the Rogue who has these Feats, is going to call on them.

My question is. HOW? Reflex, Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge all presume some ability to duck dodge and side step the effects of a spell to mitigate or entirely avoid the damage of an effect.

If said PC is inside the cloud, with this stuff blinding their vision to a certain range, and its clinging to them, how do these particular Feats apply?

Would it be based purely on surprise attack? I am not even sure the Rogue CAN be caught flat footed at this point.

How does he use his feats to escape the results of this tactic?

[ryric]

First, any effect that allows a Reflex save at all presumes there are areas of lesser and greater intensity within the effect. There are also all sorts of narrative ways that a character could conceivably survive a "deathtrap" explosion. I've seen several movies/TV shows where the heroes were trapped ina room with a bomb and found a nook/cover/etc. to survive.

One thing you might need to wrap your mind around is that even a motionless unaware charcter is allowed a Reflex save. A helpless or immobile character effectively has a 0 Dexterity, but still gets to roll the save at that penalty. Sometimes the result of a Reflex save is simply that you got lucky.

Uncanny dodge has nothing to do with Reflex saves.

[Samasboy1]

You get a Reflex save even if flatfooted, so the question of surprise/Uncanny Dodge doesn't come into play.

If he passes the Reflex save he takes no damage. It doesn't matter if there is no where to "dodge" to. Passing a Reflex save doesn't move the character out of the area anyway.

If you can't rationalize an explanation for it, that's okay. Its just how the rules work.

[shadowkras]

He will avoid the damage the same way he would avoid a fireball.
Evasion works in other ways other than "dodging" attacks, the character is expert on avoiding damage, thats all.
How? Doesnt matter much, think about heroic movie characters.

[Daniel Thrace]

shadowkras wrote:

He will avoid the damage the same way he would avoid a fireball.

Evasion works in other ways other than "dodging" attacks, the character is expert on avoiding damage, thats all.
How? Doesnt matter much, think about heroic movie characters.

Big boom over there? Whoops just hid behind the fighter, no damage.

[ryric]

shadowkras wrote:

Doesnt matter much, think about heroic movie characters.

Exactly. The rogue simply needs to turn away from the explosion and put on his sunglasses.

[Samasboy1]

Yeah, everyone knows that cool guys don't look at explosions.

[MurphysParadox]

You could still see his pants lit on fire because they are soaked with the highly flammable vapors, even if he avoids the initial explosion.

[Malignor]

Gwiber wrote:

How does he use his feats to escape the results of this tactic?

The "physics" of the game world let a mage create fire and lightning, warp space and time, and so on. They let clerics channel and store the power of the gods from across vast distances and dimensions. They let bards turn music into magical mind control.

AND they let characters with Evasion take no damage from explosives, despite common sense.
AND they let characters sunder steel weapons, even though Mythbusters were unable to prove it can be done.

It's a game of exceptional beings, in a universe which allows for inexplicable things. Just because the ability has (Ex) or (Feat) as a descriptor, doesn't mean it's mundane as per the common sense of this world.

In other words, don't expect an explanation... if you do, then please explain how magic works, so I can start casting it in real life.

[seebs]

Short answer: They are always applicable. There are very, very, very, few things that deny you reflex saves. Adventurers are also lucky, not just skilled.

[Gwen Smith]

FYI: Flat-footed only applies to attacks. You are not denied a Reflex save or denied your Dex bonus to a Reflex save just because you haven't acted yet or were caught by surprise.

Also, technically Uncanny Dodge should let a character make an attack of opportunity before they act in a combat. "Flat-footed" characters can't take AoOs, but characters with Uncanny Dodge are never flat footed.

[Sophismata]

Gwiber wrote:

Assuming the PC's are caught in it (And they should be. Its AOE and I plan on going first for sake of the encounter), the mist has a secondary property. Its highly humid, and flammable.

Don't do that. It takes agency away form the players, and there are already rules that govern who goes first in an encounter.

[Gwiber]

I'm perfectly willing to take "Agency" from players for the sake of a good story.

Considering the "Firepower" of the PC's, letting them get the first jump, would end the encounter far too soon.

By allowing the NPC's (All, two of them) to act first. it provides (and did provide) a more compelling encounter. It prevented the PC's from just mowing the NPC's down before they had a chance to act. Once they DID have a chance, then the encounter played out better for all involved.

In this case the NPC's power came from set up and time, more so than instant destruction that the PC;s could deliver. Once the NPC's had a round or two to move and act, the encounter became more difficult, and less of "This ones dead, and now so is this one 1 round later."

This was a case of a 5th level Adept, 10 level Mythic Theurge, and a 7 level Fighter being ambushed in public by a 10th level Cleric and a 10th level Ninja, neither of which knew WHEN the PC's would in on location, and had been waiting for a while. The cleric needed time to cast spells, and the Ninja needed time to set up his ambush (Assassinate in particular requires observation before action).

Ultimately the Mystic Theurge in round three cast Hold Person on the Cleric (Who failed her save horribly[rolled a 1]) and reduced the enemy force in half. Combined with a Obscuring Mist over the Theurge and Cleric, the hired ninja decided not to pursue the matter further and bolted (hired guns.. what can you do?). The PC's despite being the levels they were, more or less murdered the encounter ANYWAY, with tension but little difficulty.

The cleric would have been put upon IMMEDIATELY by the Fighter and forced into combat casting and risk of spell loss, if I had NOT give her the fiat of going first.

Sometimes you do things for the sake of story as much as anything else.

[Samasboy1]

If you are going with DM fiat to go first, why not just decide your NPCs dont die until they have acted for a few rounds, regardless of damage taken? And just declare they pass the saves against save or suck spells? And the cleric automatically passes his concentration check to cast defensively?

Deciding the bad guys go first is no different than any of these other options. They all reduce the importance of PCs actions and decisions.

If you are having issue with the PCs "firepower" maybe design encounters differently?

[Sophismata]

I'm actually more surprised that two 10th level characters didn't wipe the floor with the Adept, Fighter and Theurge. Ninja is pretty weak, but the Cleric should have been a strong contender; especially if there was a round to buff.

[seebs]

If you are taking agency away from players for the sake of a good story, write a book.

[Valandil Ancalime]

Gwiber wrote:

I'm perfectly willing to take "Agency" from players for the sake of a good story.

Considering the "Firepower" of the PC's, letting them get the first jump, would end the encounter far too soon.

By allowing the NPC's (All, two of them) to act first. it provides (and did provide) a more compelling encounter. It prevented the PC's from just mowing the NPC's down before they had a chance to act. Once they DID have a chance, then the encounter played out better for all involved.

In this case the NPC's power came from set up and time, more so than instant destruction that the PC;s could deliver. Once the NPC's had a round or two to move and act, the encounter became more difficult, and less of "This ones dead, and now so is this one 1 round later."

Why don't you give us more details and maybe we can help you design the encounter so you don't have to take "Agency" from players.