Are these Iconics actually evil?


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Scarab Sages

Is it just me, or is Alain the Iconic cavalier
( http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Alain ) and Damiel the Iconic Alchemist
( http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Damiel ) actually evil? If you read their backstories, Alain is a bratty, bloodthirsty sociopath who wants to kill people because, basically, he wants to test his mettle. He's arrogant, full of himself, dislikes other people, and treats the soldiers under his command as basically expendable, just ways for him to get greater glory. Assuming he's calculating and orderly in the way he goes about his life (i.e. lawful), I'd put him squarely in the Evil category. In fact, he's a member of the Order of the Cockatrice, the order who's EDICTS are: 1) get more money for yourself, never be generous.

Damiel is even worse. Okay, so I get that he's got a Jekal and Hyde thing going on . . . but not really. Okay, so he started blacking out and coming to having done horrible things like arson, murder, thievery . . . He kinda figured out it was him, but couldn't stop because of his addiction. Now, addiction as an excuse for crimes aside (I know that's a touchy subject for some), he STOPPED CARING, and then went on to be employed at an assasin's guild as their lead poison-crafter. Yeah, that's right, he was paid to make stuff for the sole purpose of assassinating people.

Now look, these aren't EVIL evil people, they aren't looking to take over the world. But they are still self-centered sociopaths who commit atrocities at the drop of a hat for their own personal reasons. I know they aren't going to topple empires or commit genocides. Well, Damiel might if he was high off his own mutagen . . . actually Alain might if he thought it would bring him glory . . . yeah, okay, these guys might try to commit genocide.

Why are they Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Neutral respectively?

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Because there's already one Lawful Evil Iconic and everyone knows you can't have a Chaotic Evil PC
:P

The Exchange

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Don't look at me. I've seen "Chaotic Neutral" and "Lawful Neutral" played pretty much like these guys... obnoxious, narcissist, greedy, callous...

Oh, wait! There's your answer - these guys are the PC version of those alignments, not the NPC version! They're not evil... because they're the heroes! Quod erat demonstratum!


He is neutral, so Alain doesn't care about others except friend (however, he has none but his horse). The defining line of neutral is only friends/people you care about.

Evil is when you want to hurt others and not care about others.

His goals isn't to hurt others. His goal is LN: fighting for his honor alone.

Scarab Sages

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Starbuck_II wrote:

He is neutral, so Alain doesn't care about others except friend (however, he has none but his horse). The defining line of neutral is only friends/people you care about.

Evil is when you want to hurt others and not care about others.

His goals isn't to hurt others. His goal is LN: fighting for his honor alone.

See, if all he did was care about his horse, and told everyone else to bugger off, I'd be okay with him being LN.

The part where he crosses the line for me is when he goes around MURDERING PEOPLE because HE THINKS IT'S FUN, and because it gives him GREATER GLORY. He doesn't care about honor AT ALL. He kills people because he thinks it'll get people to respect/fear him, and it will get him praise/adulation.

Quote:

Don't look at me. I've seen "Chaotic Neutral" and "Lawful Neutral" played pretty much like these guys... obnoxious, narcissist, greedy, callous...

Oh, wait! There's your answer - these guys are the PC version of those alignments, not the NPC version! They're not evil... because they're the heroes! Quod erat demonstratum!

ROFL! Yeah, that's about the only reason I can think of that these guys would still be considered neutral.

I'm reminded of that line from the Gamers 2: Dorkness rising.

Clearly Evil PC: I'm Chaotic Neutral, I'm just playing my Alignment. Right?
Other PCs: No, you're evil
Paladin: And a whore!


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VampByDay wrote:
He kills people because he thinks it'll get people to respect/fear him, and it will get him praise/adulation.

You just described the vast majority of adventurers, if you replace "people" with "monsters" and "praise/adulation" with "loot."


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Neutral fits the bill for the Cavalier. He doesn't look at a peasant and size them up for loot or XP. Other warriors to test his mettle, any willingness to wear a weapon could be considered "fair game" in his world view. It seems a textbook case of neutral to me - certainly won't help someone he isn't attached to (friends, family), yet not going to rob/murder peasants. It also doesn't say what happens to potential opponents should they refuse a challenge. Middle of the road (no strong acts of good nor evil, though certainly not a pleasant person).

As for the alchemist, if the OP is accurate it sounds evil to me. Knows his actions lead to death and destruction, yet continues them? Check. Any remorse? Not likely if he is willing to make poisons for known killers. Am I only getting half the story? If he also has some sort of saint side I might accept a neutral alignment explanation (in this case, swings wildly from good to evil and back again almost on a whim).

So, in my view you have two ways of being neutral - either your actions just aren't strong enough to be considered either polarity (the moderate approach); or your actions swing to the extremes often enough that you really don't fit in either polarity (the wild mood swing approach).

The Exchange

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Shadowborn wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
He kills people because he thinks it'll get people to respect/fear him, and it will get him praise/adulation.
You just described the vast majority of adventurers, if you replace "people" with "monsters" and "praise/adulation" with "loot."

Well, yes, but he also just described the vast majority of pickle manufacturers if he replaces "people" with "cucumbers" and replaces "respect/fear him" with "eat his pickles." Deciding that by 'people' VampByDay meant 'monsters' isn't much less silly.

Scarab Sages

KestrelZ wrote:

Neutral fits the bill for the Cavalier. He doesn't look at a peasant and size them up for loot or XP. Other warriors to test his mettle, any willingness to wear a weapon could be considered "fair game" in his world view. It seems a textbook case of neutral to me - certainly won't help someone he isn't attached to (friends, family), yet not going to rob/murder peasants. It also doesn't say what happens to potential opponents should they refuse a challenge. Middle of the road (no strong acts of good nor evil, though certainly not a pleasant person).

As for the alchemist, if the OP is accurate it sounds evil to me. Knows his actions lead to death and destruction, yet continues them? Check. Any remorse? Not likely if he is willing to make poisons for known killers. Am I only getting half the story? If he also has some sort of saint side I might accept a neutral alignment explanation (in this case, swings wildly from good to evil and back again almost on a whim).

So, in my view you have two ways of being neutral - either your actions just aren't strong enough to be considered either polarity (the moderate approach); or your actions swing to the extremes often enough that you really don't fit in either polarity (the wild mood swing approach).

You can read the wiki at the top of the post and decide for yourself in my original post was a good description or not. That's why I included the links.

Also, from the way they describe Alain, I get the feeling that he WOULD indeed cut down a peasant if one spoke back to him or didn't give him (what he considered) his due amount of adoration. He's nobility after all, it's his right to kill peasants if he chooses. It doesn't outright say he does that though so . . . eh, could go either way.

They certainly do describe him as bloodthirsty and killing sentient opponents just to see if he can though.


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Ssalarn wrote:

Because there's already one Lawful Evil Iconic and everyone knows you can't have a Chaotic Evil PC

:P

I would argue this.

You can't have a Chaotic Evil Short sighted PC definitely; and if you do; it will be a short lived one.

Joker occasionally works with the Penguin and Two-Face and doesn't really double cross them until the jobs done. He also doesn't do anything to jeopardize whatever deal they have (for the most part) until the jobs done. This is because however Chaotic and Evil he is he's not stupid. Stabbing your associates in the back and risking your life for nothing better than to be chaotically evil is dumb.

You can have a Chaotic Evil character in your party; just not a Chaotic Stupid one.

The Exchange

VampByDay wrote:
..from the way they describe Alain, I get the feeling that he WOULD indeed cut down a peasant if one spoke back to him or didn't give him (what he considered) his due amount of adoration... They certainly do describe him as bloodthirsty and killing sentient opponents just to see if he can...

Yep. That's a PC, all right!

Liberty's Edge

Alain isn't wantonly cruel, nor does he kill for no reason. He fights to prove his mettle, to prove that he's the baddest man alive, basically. He's certainly a dick, but Evil? Not unless all mercenaries are evil, as he doesn't do anything most mercenaries don't in terms of killing people.

His treatment of people outside of combat is, again, kinda dickish, but not overtly cruel or abusive. He seduces women and breaks hearts, sure, but he doesn't abuse them or anything. He's definitely on the shady side of LN, but Evil seems a stretch. There's no actual evidence he'd hurt someone without a good reason, it's all "He comes off like he would!" or some such. He clearly wouldn't, or he would indeed be LE.

As for Damiel...he committed murder once. That's bad, but not outside the bounds for CN. Amiri massacred the warriors of her own tribe and she's still CN. Nor are theft and arson inherently Evil (though arson gets there if you kill people...which he didn't). Odds are he was CG like most elves before his obsession got the better of him and he gradually sunk to CN one bad thing at a time, with the murder sealing the shift.

If he were to continue willfully doing such things...CE is definitely on the road, but he tries really hard not to do that sort of thing any more. His dominant personality, the one that controls his daily activities, is (per his entry) sincerely repentant and tries very hard to be a Good guy...it'd probably be CG if taken in isolation. While his other personality would likely be CE taken in isolation. Because Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive, someone who behaves CG most days with occasional bouts of CE averages out around CN. So that's what Damiel is.


As alignment is totally and utterly subjective ... who cares.


We already have a LE Iconic?


Mike Franke wrote:
We already have a LE Iconic?

Seltyiel

Scarab Sages

Mike Franke wrote:
We already have a LE Iconic?

Yeah, he's a Lawful Evil Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight. Although, I think everyone has just decided to retcon him as a Magus, at least unofficially. Magus is the only non-prestige class that we don't have an iconic for . . . and Magus seems to fit him better than Eldritch Knight.

Silver Crusade

I thought they did retcon him as a Magus...

Scarab Sages

Tempestorm wrote:
I thought they did retcon him as a Magus...

Not according to the Wiki:

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Seltyiel

Liberty's Edge

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VampByDay wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:
We already have a LE Iconic?
Yeah, he's a Lawful Evil Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight. Although, I think everyone has just decided to retcon him as a Magus, at least unofficially. Magus is the only non-prestige class that we don't have an iconic for . . . and Magus seems to fit him better than Eldritch Knight.

Uh...that's official, not unofficial. He's the picture by the Magus class

Shadow Lodge

VampByDay wrote:
Tempestorm wrote:
I thought they did retcon him as a Magus...

Not according to the Wiki:

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Seltyiel

The Wiki is not official.

He's the picture by the Magus entry in Ultimate Magic. That's what makes him officially the iconic Magus.


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You said they're selfish. Being selfish isn't evil. You said they're not nice. Being not nice isn't evil... hell it's not even necessary for a good character.

Putting yourself before others is neutral behavior. It's when you put yourself at the expense of others that it becomes evil.


Lincoln Hills wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
He kills people because he thinks it'll get people to respect/fear him, and it will get him praise/adulation.
You just described the vast majority of adventurers, if you replace "people" with "monsters" and "praise/adulation" with "loot."
Well, yes, but he also just described the vast majority of pickle manufacturers if he replaces "people" with "cucumbers" and replaces "respect/fear him" with "eat his pickles." Deciding that by 'people' VampByDay meant 'monsters' isn't much less silly.

You're the one being silly. Monsters are often intelligent, and they are often humanoid races, which also makes a lot of them people. The same can't be said for cucumbers. The motivations are interchangeable. Nothing in the alignment system says that killing things and taking their stuff is evil.


Notice that none of these iconics of questionable morality are women, I claim sexism! *Thread derail in three... two... one...*

Damiel I don't know much about. From what I've read of Alain, he seems very Neutral in a Gorum sort of way. "Why do I fight? To fight!"

Liberty's Edge

Lloyd Jackson wrote:
Notice that none of these iconics of questionable morality are women, I claim sexism! *Thread derail in three... two... one...*

Hey, I brought up Amiri killing a bunch of people...

Lloyd Jackson wrote:
Damiel I don't know much about. From what I've read of Alain, he seems very Neutral in a Gorum sort of way. "Why do I fight? To fight!"

Yeah, that's a fair assessment, though he's LN to Gorum's CN.

And as noted, Damiel is basically a multiple personalities situation, with one nice enough and looking for redemption and the other, uh, not.


Damiel is definitely a brutal murdering psycopath, which is fine, evil characters are cool too.

Liberty's Edge

CWheezy wrote:
Damiel is definitely a brutal murdering psycopath, which is fine, evil characters are cool too.

Only one of him. :)


I am only getting my info from this blog. It implies he pretty much knew what he was doing so imo he is evil overall. Chaotic evil too

Liberty's Edge

CWheezy wrote:
I am only getting my info from this blog. It implies he pretty much knew what he was doing so imo he is evil overall. Chaotic evil too

Maybe back then. Read the last paragraph, he's mostly reformed these days.


Quote:
Damiel no longer gives his vile tendencies full rein, and carries himself well in social situations, most who look into those bagged and bloodshot eyes quickly understand the truth of his nature: unbalanced, unstable, unpredictable—and totally indispensable in a fight, which is why he still manages to fall in with other adventurers from time to time. And as he continues to mature, some of them even survive his companionship.

Yeah, ok

Liberty's Edge

CWheezy wrote:
Quote:
Damiel no longer gives his vile tendencies full rein, and carries himself well in social situations, most who look into those bagged and bloodshot eyes quickly understand the truth of his nature: unbalanced, unstable, unpredictable—and totally indispensable in a fight, which is why he still manages to fall in with other adventurers from time to time. And as he continues to mature, some of them even survive his companionship.
Yeah, ok

I didn't get the impression that was him killing them so much as getting them killed by being a nutjob. Which isn't Evil per se.

Dark Archive

It seems to me that Damiel started off as CG when he first traveled to the capital to learn, then changed to CN as a result of his experiments. He gathered that he was the perpetrator of the crime sprees, likely from evidence he found nearby upon waking up from "unconsciousness", but seeing as most of the crimes were (relatively) harmless, such as theft and arson, he ignored them in favor of continuing his research - a chaotic neutral state of mind, I'd say.

One night his other self's escapades turned deadly and authorities brought him in after finding a young woman dead, her face nearly burned away, in the alley behind his home. It even says in the Wiki that Damiel couldn't believe that he had killed the girl just for seeing him in his "Changed" state. I assume that the only reason he wasn't executed on the spot was due to his lack of control over his actions and his regret over the murder. He was exiled from Kyonin and his story was covered up by the government, likely to avoid causing the public to panic and grow fearful of the experiments and teachings of the local alchemists.

Damiel did commit atrocities, yes, but prior to the murder nobody was hurt by his escapades. He regrets his actions and made sure to keep that side of him under control afterwards. As for his time spent with the Poisoner's Guild, I imagine it would be difficult for an alchemist exiled for "plagiarism" to find honest work. Besides, he only made poison, and wasn't an assassin. That puts him firmly in Chaotic Neutral. He's working towards Chaotic Good, but his control over the Evil inside him slips every now and then, making it difficult to achieve.


LuniasM wrote:
As for his time spent with the Poisoner's Guild, I imagine it would be difficult for an alchemist exiled for "plagiarism" to find honest work. Besides, he only made poison, and wasn't an assassin.

Can you honestly say this with a straight face. Do you think he didn't know what the poison was going to be used for?

Also he got kicked out because he kept killing people on the side, so, you know


VampByDay wrote:
Tempestorm wrote:
I thought they did retcon him as a Magus...

Not according to the Wiki:

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Seltyiel

As it's been pointed out already the wiki isn't official and I think the person that made that page doesn't really know what they're talking about/doing since he's listed twice on the same page once as a Half-Elf Fighter(or Gunslinger)/Wizard/Eldritch Knight and the other time as a Dhampir Magus/Summoner.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

I think the last official release on his backstory was quite some time ago. The neat thing is, from a story perspective there's not a lot of need to change anything to shift him from Eldritch Knight to Magus since both use blades and spellbooks.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Alain is a jerk, but that doesn't make him evil. Alignment's always a tricky subject, but let's take a quick look at what the PH says about Good vs. Evil:

PRD wrote:


Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

I think we can all agree that he's definitely not Good. Is he Evil? He certainly doesn't fit the second definition - random killing isn't sporting, and Alain would never serve anyone. What about the first? He certainly lacks compassion, but I don't think he looks at killing as "convenient." He kills, but is killing always on the table? If someone took a swing at him in a bar, would he choke his assailant to death? I don't think so. He considers himself to be better than most people (other iconics included), and while he'd have no problem beating someone who punched him in the mouth to a pulp, he'd probably stop before he beat that same person to death. So, no, I don't think he's Evil. What about Neutral? "Compunctions against killing the innocent"? Possibly. He's the son of a minor noble, and I could see him believing that the station you are born into defines your role in the world, and as a noble, he has a responsibility not to kill peasants - after all, they make the food. Somehow. Probably magic. "Lack commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others"? Oh, that's Alain all the way. If he's not getting coin, then go find a different adventurer. No, I think he's definitely Neutral.

Damiel's a tougher nut to crack. There are some people that say his one murder makes him Evil. And The Change definitely is unbridled Chaotic Evil. If he let it out full time, The Change would burn, kill and rape until it was put down like the beast it truly is. Damiel, however, is seeking to control The Change within. He knows what he's done. He knows what he's become. He knows what will happen if he just gives in one more time. His time with the Poisoner's Guild shows how far the man's fallen. Since Damiel's in control, I'd say he's Neutral as well, but he's toeing the line with Evil far closer than Alain ever has. He may have been Evil at some point, but has redeemed himself enough that he's moved back to Neutral before he became an iconic.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Static Hamster wrote:


You can't have a Chaotic Evil Short sighted PC definitely; and if you do; it will be a short lived one.

Joker occasionally works with the Penguin and Two-Face and doesn't really double cross them until the jobs done. He also doesn't do anything to jeopardize whatever deal they have (for the most part) until the jobs done. This is because however Chaotic and Evil he is he's not stupid. Stabbing your associates in the back and risking your life for nothing better than to be chaotically evil is dumb.

You can have a Chaotic Evil character in your party; just not a Chaotic Stupid one.

One would assume that an actual advenuring party can stay together long enough to do more than get one over on one hero one time. Joker can't consistently and reliably work with anyone else, and would turn on his would-be allies in a heartbeat if it got him what he really wanted, or even if something in his twisted psyche just told him it would be particularly appropriate. That behavior not only doesn't play out well in game, it can also strain relationships out of game as well.

It's telling that even in the "Way of the Wicked" AP, the adventure path specifically made for evil characters, they talk about how chaotic evil is not an appropriate alignment for a long term adventure and specifically introduce rules for things like Lawful Evil Antipaladins.
If the character can suppress his tendencies well enough to work as part of a cohesive unit long term, he's not really chaotic evil, unless of course the group is also comprised of chaotic evil individuals, helping to fuel the chaos and destruction.

"Chaotic Evil
If I want something, I take it. Might is right. The strong rule the weak. Respect me or suffer. Fear me. There is only today, and today I take what I need. Anger brings out the best in me. I am the stronger one.

Core Concepts: Anarchy, anger, amorality, brutality, chaos, degeneracy, freedom, profaneness, violence

A chaotic evil character is driven entirely by her own anger and needs. She is thoughtless in her actions and acts on whims, regardless of the suffering it causes others.

In many ways, a chaotic evil character is pinned down by her inherent nature to be unpredictable. She is like a spreading fire, a coming storm, an untested sword blade. An extreme chaotic evil character tends to find similarly minded individuals to be with—not out of any need for company, but because there is a familiarity in this chaos, and she relishes the opportunity to be true to her nature with others who share that delight."

The Exchange

I disagree. A CE character may not see any value in trust or friendship, but he can still be bullied... or bribed. (Isn't that what summoning demons is all about?)

Of course, most PC parties will not agree to give a CE player character extra shares just for the dubious privilege of his company!

Scarab Sages

Under the description of evil "Some kill out of sport." Isn't that what Alain does? He heard about stories of battle, got intrigued, got pissed off when he couldn't find (it even says in his backstory that he tried to bring up some of the old blood feuds, but his family was smart enough to decline.). He wanted to see how it would feel to kill in battle, found he liked it, and kept doing it. Sure, he probably restrains his killing to fields of battle, but his motivation isn't money or valor or saving the king, it's killing and glory. Heck, the iconic cleric dedicated her life to fighting such EVIL.

I guess I find it evil, but that's my opinion and I recognize that this is a bit of a grey area and not as black-and-white as, say, herr lich who wants to blow up the world.

Liberty's Edge

CWheezy wrote:
Can you honestly say this with a straight face. Do you think he didn't know what the poison was going to be used for?

Are all weapon smiths now Evil?

Because using poison and using a weapon are equally Evil in Pathfinder, no more. Using poison is dishonorable, and thus Chaotic, but not inherently Evil. So making poison is no more Evil than making a dagger. Now, making a dagger you know will be use for an assassination is a little shadier (and debatably the situation Damiel was in)...but see below about how alignments change.

CWheezy wrote:
Also he got kicked out because he kept killing people on the side, so, you know

That's not clear at all. He did something unconscionable that was described as 'handiwork'...that could be a dozen different things (including freelance poison design or arson), not necessarily murder. And even if it was murder, and he was thus CE then (a possibility)...Alignments change. Once again, he's trying to be a Good guy these days, and that really does make a difference. His results are just...mixed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:
We already have a LE Iconic?
Yeah, he's a Lawful Evil Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight. Although, I think everyone has just decided to retcon him as a Magus, at least unofficially. Magus is the only non-prestige class that we don't have an iconic for . . . and Magus seems to fit him better than Eldritch Knight.

He's essentially both. the Eldritch Knight iconic was a standin from a parallel universe. :) His stats are here. AFAIK, none of the other CRB PrC's ever received an iconic.

The Exchange

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An evil duplicate from a parallel universe? Where's his little beard?

Dark Archive

CWheezy wrote:
LuniasM wrote:
As for his time spent with the Poisoner's Guild, I imagine it would be difficult for an alchemist exiled for "plagiarism" to find honest work. Besides, he only made poison, and wasn't an assassin.

Can you honestly say this with a straight face. Do you think he didn't know what the poison was going to be used for?

Also he got kicked out because he kept killing people on the side, so, you know

Now that I look at the page again, it actually says "For a time, his unique concoctions made him a minor celebrity in certain circles." It seems plausible that he made poison, considering his use of it later on in life, but it's never called out as such.

Even if he did make poisons, due to the secretive nature of the guild he likely wasn't informed about who they were being used against or to what ends. I'm not saying he didn't know they'd be used to hurt people, he's not an idiot, but this makes him no more evil than a weaponsmith crafting daggers or a wizard preparing Fireball. I'm not saying Damiel was Mister Goody-Two-Shoes or anything, but he certainly wasn't evil just for making poison.

As for Damiel's "excursions", the wiki states that "his control over his base nature slipped", which allowed The Change to take over again and commit more crimes against his will. Damiel is basically an alcoholic who becomes violent when drunk and is trying to quit - the only thing stopping him from being straight-up Chaotic Good is that his control still slips sometimes despite his efforts to get better.


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Like I said ... totally subjective.


THE ALIGNMENT RULES wrote:

Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

I think the OP Is onto something. They're definitely evil. They have no redeeming features. Their apathy combined with their penchant for hurting other people for personal gain pretty much slaps the big E on their foreheads.


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LuniasM wrote:


As for Damiel's "excursions", the wiki states that "his control over his base nature slipped", which allowed The Change to take over again and commit more crimes against his will. Damiel is basically an alcoholic who becomes violent when drunk and is trying to quit - the only thing stopping him from being straight-up Chaotic Good is that his control still slips sometimes despite his efforts to get better.

Violent alcoholics know what happens when they drink. You are 100% responsible for your actions while drunk

Damiel knows what happens and he still does it. He is neutral evil for sure. Damiel only cares about one thing, and that is damiel.

Dark Archive

CWheezy wrote:
LuniasM wrote:


As for Damiel's "excursions", the wiki states that "his control over his base nature slipped", which allowed The Change to take over again and commit more crimes against his will. Damiel is basically an alcoholic who becomes violent when drunk and is trying to quit - the only thing stopping him from being straight-up Chaotic Good is that his control still slips sometimes despite his efforts to get better.

Violent alcoholics know what happens when they drink. You are 100% responsible for your actions while drunk

Damiel knows what happens and he still does it. He is neutral evil for sure. Damiel only cares about one thing, and that is damiel.

Yes, you are accountable for your actions while under the influence, and Damiel is still responsible for those actions. Nobody has tried to deny that here. I do believe that you are underestimating the power of addictions, though. After all, most of the people I know who smoke don't do so because it's "cool" or "attractive", but because they simply can't stop.

Damiel has an addiction that can be harmful to others. He knows this, and he's been keeping it under control since he left the Poisoner's Guild, but one slip is all it takes. He's Chaotic Neutral, trying to be Chaotic Good but his addiction keeps him from reaching it.

And where are you getting the idea that he only cares about himself? If that were the case he wouldn't even bother trying to control his urges.

Scarab Sages

Deadmanwalking wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Can you honestly say this with a straight face. Do you think he didn't know what the poison was going to be used for?

Are all weapon smiths now Evil?

Because using poison and using a weapon are equally Evil in Pathfinder, no more. Using poison is dishonorable, and thus Chaotic, but not inherently Evil. So making poison is no more Evil than making a dagger. Now, making a dagger you know will be use for an assassination is a little shadier (and debatably the situation Damiel was in)...but see below about how alignments change.

I get what you're saying, but that's not quite the same thing. Weapons can be used for a variety of reasons. Killing monsters, defending yourself, heck, having parade dress could be considered an appropriate use for a weapon, or a show of force.

Damiel was crafting poisons FOR AN ASSASSIN'S GUILD. Using poison usually requires forethought, saying "hmmm, I'm gonna murder something today, better prepare for it." or "I want to drop this into the dignitary's gazpacho soup and have him die in agony a few hours later."

Point being, no, not all weaponsmiths are evil. But a dude willingly making weapons FOR AN ASSASSIN'S guild, and ONLY for an assassin's guild might raise some eyebrows. Damiel knew what he was doing, and didn't care that he was making stuff directly for the express purpose of murdering people.


Quote:
Today, Damiel has grown further, into a man of two minds. The first - the greatest remaining shadow of the Damiel Morgethai That Was - truly repents for the arbitrary and senseless suffering he's caused, and attempts to keep his darker urges in check. ... Damiel no longer gives his vile tendencies full rein, ...

I think that's why he's CN.

Back in his Poisoner's Guild days, he was evil. He's changed and grown since then and he isn't anymore.

Editor-in-Chief

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Orthos wrote:
VampByDay wrote:
Tempestorm wrote:
I thought they did retcon him as a Magus...

Not according to the Wiki:

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Seltyiel

The Wiki is not official.

He's the picture by the Magus entry in Ultimate Magic. That's what makes him officially the iconic Magus.

First off, for all your Pathfinder Wiki needs, I'd suggest using Pathfinder Wiki, not the one previously linked. There is a lot of overlap between the two, but Pathfinder Wiki is more thoroughly updated. It's also run by a Paizo staff member, so... make of that what you will.

Second, in this regard, the wiki is correct. Seltyiel is lawful evil and is currently our only evil-aligned iconic.

In fact, when we ordered him way back for Pathfinder AP #12, his schtick was in part to serve as the "iconic evil character." We're a long ways from that now and I can't say he's going to remain the sole evil character, but for the moment he retains the title.

Expect more iconic love in the very near future.

Scarab Sages

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:


First off, for all your Pathfinder Wiki needs, I'd suggest using Pathfinder Wiki, not the one previously linked. There is a lot of overlap between the two, but Pathfinder Wiki is more thoroughly updated. It's also run by a Paizo staff member, so... make of that what you will.

Second, in this regard, the wiki is correct. Seltyiel is lawful evil and is currently our only evil-aligned iconic.

In fact, when we ordered him way back for Pathfinder AP #12, his schtick was in part to serve as the "iconic evil character." We're a long ways from that now and I can't say he's going to remain the sole evil character, but for the moment he retains the title.

Expect more iconic love in the very near future.

Wow, thanks for bringing us up to speed on this. And thanks for the official word.

I guess, well, without having seen Alain or Damiel actually played, I was kinda going off what their backstories said about them. This was never meant to be an attack, a treatise,a campaign to change the wiki, or anything like that. It was a fun diversion, and idea for me to go "Hmmm, does this really fit?" Maybe the in-universe guy who wrote up Alain's description hated him and really wanted to make him look like a bad guy?

Also, I agree with the idea that some have come up with that Damiel may have dipped into CE for a while (when he was the lead poisioner for the assassin's guild), but he's trying to get his life together and has 'brought himself up' to CN. That seems like a fun idea.

Oh, and you tempt us with new iconic stuff! Could this have to do with the new Advanced Class Guide? Can't wait.

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