Goblin Squad Member
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@ CosmicKirby I want to make sure that I have no problem with Global cooldowns or tab-target, in fact I prefer them. I was not talking about real-time action combat games, but rather regular tab-target MMO's that can not seem to get it right. Like Warhammer Online and LOTRO to name two.
There is another thread where we talk about "circle-strafing" and Bunnyhopping and such and it seems that that kind of actiony tricks will not really help with the way combat is set up in PFO. Not sure how Ryan said it, more strategic, less tactical? Or the other way around?
Anyway, I agree with Audocet, if you get a serious advantage in combat by circlestrafing and bunnyhopping, then I will not be doing much fighting. Still seems there are other things to do in PFO though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is absolutely no reason that I can't get good at it (in all aspects, not just combat) if I try.Except for my complete lack of hand/eye coordination. For me, that always seems to matter in the end :-).
Part of the "(in all aspects, not just combat)" can be learned and developed skills in strategic and tactical control of others that DO have fast hand/eye coordination. Down to planning shipments, travel, and sneaky stuff for those young whipper snappers to do. :)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think it depends a lot on the type of PvP. Stealth kills came generally with insults, especially if I didn't complain, as if the killer was disappointed that I didn't rage. Pirates with specific objectives, like in low-sec, were more friendly, when you reached out to say GG. War dec' varied. I don't have a positive memory with the few interactions I had with russians.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The most important things are that you recognize that PVP is a part of the game (which Seems to get universal acknowledgement), and that you participate as part of the "layered approach".
Participating can be everything/anything from crafting and equipping your friends/fellow members, to training a few missile skills, to full on PVP, to strategic command. Most important: Don't kill outside of faction/feud/war anymore than you have to and make life miserable to those that do it to excess.
The RPK is taken out of the equation with faction, feud, and wars. If the rep system and the consequences don't keep the rest from becoming TOO prevalent, the game is FAIL for those that just don't dig constant PVP. Smaller market draw. Same old same old.
I don't think that will happen if you read GW's written intent and look at all of the player Orgs that are planning to participate in their part of the "layered approach".
It is going to be alright!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it depends a lot on the type of PvP. Stealth kills came generally with insults, especially if I didn't complain, as if the killer was disappointed that I didn't rage. Pirates with specific objectives, like in low-sec, were more friendly, when you reached out to say GG. War dec' varied. I don't have a positive memory with the few interactions I had with russians.
My current corporation tangles most often with Russians. At times we have even gone on roams, including them, which surprised me. I was like, "Hey, didn't we kill that guy two days ago?" That is when it was explained to me the philosophy of supporting the "pirate life" and not the corporate label, when it comes to roams. In mixed company, the only targets safe are those not represented within the company.
The only group we have real negative reactions from and towards is EvE Uni.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Excellent advice Valkenr!
And I have said this before on other posts, but I will repeat it here: If you are adverse to PvP but are attacked and killed by someone in PFO (and this is likely if you're going to venture out of the protected areas), remember that that is part of the game, don't get overly upset about it, and by all means reach out to the player who killed you and ask the why's and wherefors. You will likely find that those PvPers are more than willing to provide you advice on how to better protect yourself in the future.
And that will make the game more fun for everyone!
You're living in a dream world. I've played MMO's for years now, and I've PvP-d in all of them. Reaching out to the person that killed you will typically get you the response "L2P Noob. lololol"
I disagree. Granted my best experience is in Eve. Most people will talk to you completely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Excellent advice Valkenr!
And I have said this before on other posts, but I will repeat it here: If you are adverse to PvP but are attacked and killed by someone in PFO (and this is likely if you're going to venture out of the protected areas), remember that that is part of the game, don't get overly upset about it, and by all means reach out to the player who killed you and ask the why's and wherefors. You will likely find that those PvPers are more than willing to provide you advice on how to better protect yourself in the future.
And that will make the game more fun for everyone!
You're living in a dream world. I've played MMO's for years now, and I've PvP-d in all of them. Reaching out to the person that killed you will typically get you the response "L2P Noob. lololol"
Yes this will happen as not all people in the real world are nice and respectable, and they bring that into the game world as well. However, it is the hope of GW and the community that this behavior is kept at a minimum. I know I have encountered "good behavior" in MMO's before. A short example is in WOW PVP server, got jumped by a shaman and I was a frost mage. Was able to defeat him twice since he anhked to try to finish me. A few mins later as I was still in the area farming rep, I was nearly dead and just sat down to eat/drink. Looked over and saw him standing there. he bowed and ran off. I took it as a sign of respect because I had defeated him fairly when he had the advantage of the ambush.
He could had easily killed me as retaliation but chose not to. if we could get more of that sort of player, then PFO will be a fun and enjoyable place to play. I consider myself that sort of player, since I don't corpse camp and don't go out of my way to kill people and ruin people's experience as some others do. In PFO, I would do the same. If I killed someone and they /w me asking what they did wrong or why I attacked them, I would OOC explain it to them with no issue. IC im a ruthless murder who does not believe in spirits returning to life once I have ended theirs.
Anyway, I just wanted to comment on your reply concerning the "L2P noob"
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game design is what will shape how PVP functions. Players will abuse (read exploit) those designs to their own benefit. Which is to be expected in a sandbox environment.
The key factor in all of this honestly is how fun it is to actually fight.
How responsive is the combat? Does it feel competitive? Does it feel engaging? Does it make sense? How about optimization? It's been brought up before I know, but it's always been a key factor from my experience.
How many players in one area is too much? And what will that do to the battle or the war? I see one tactic right now where the side that's out numbered could call in reinforcements and flood the area with more bodies. The point being is that you don't need to actually fight or play well, but if you put enough people in one area - the game will lag out and make PVP not even viable. It's actually something I see PVE players could do to protect themselves with sheer numbers. Top AAA MMOs with years of development still have have issues with this. I'm curious as to what exactly GW plans are to address it. I know they've said before they're looking into it, but soon details will need to be fleshed out as players start joining the game.
All this talk on our end is for not, if the actual functionality of fighting each other is so busted that we would be better off staring at each other and /roll in chat to resolve fights.
This is a game and soon ideology must give way to reality. That goes for these forums as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Players will abuse (read exploit) those designs to their own benefit. Which is to be expected in a sandbox environment.
I really hope we don't just "expect" this.
It was said elsewhere that "having fun" is the "win" condition for PFO, but I don't think that means "not having fun" is the "lose" condition. Rather, I think "cheating/exploiting/abusing" is the "lose" condition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PVP for most here
I expect a lot of PvP in PfO to look like that situation. And then of course, right behind the uruk-hai you have an ogre swinging his club...
As has been said, most PvP will not be fair fights.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Players will abuse (read exploit) those designs to their own benefit. Which is to be expected in a sandbox environment.I really hope we don't just "expect" this.
It was said elsewhere that "having fun" is the "win" condition for PFO, but I don't think that means "not having fun" is the "lose" condition. Rather, I think "cheating/exploiting/abusing" is the "lose" condition.
I never said anything about cheating. That of course won't be condoned by GW neither will griefing, as they have stated.
Sandbox is different from Themepark. There is no 'right' way to play a sandbox. There's only a set list of rules that players abide by and then go from there. As opposed to a Themepark, where there is a much stricter intent of gameplay based upon design. This is much more open and lends itself to people using that to their full potential. Because gamers are naturally smart about things like this, when given these environments to play in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I never said anything about cheating. That of course won't be condoned by GW neither will griefing, as they have stated.Are you suggesting that "abuse/exploit" will be condoned?
I am suggesting that abusing what is permissible by the game design rules and players exploiting their advantage to the fullest extent will be condoned.
If something is against game design intentions, it will be rectified by GW.
A good example as I see it is like in Football in the NFL. A lot of plays and tactics were being implemented when the game first started. The game evolved and some of those tactics were deemed game breaking and banned, while rules were changed to accommodate a certain play style. Teams will abuse and exploit the rules to the fullest extent by the very nature that it's a competitive sport. Pathfinder Online is built to be competitive and will have similar growth and evolution in my opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No one seems to have philosophical problems with AI-controlled mobs out in the world that will suicidally attack you on sight unless you can defeat them.
PvP is the same combat with less predictable AI, and even introduces possibilities of not being automatically attacked.
That's true enough out in the wild but AI usually doesn't chase you to the ends of the earth, seek you out for revenge or call in reinforcements that wait for you to run into them.
It's all the ganky, harrassing stuff that people do that AI hasn't yet which causes folks to shy away from PvP. In PvE, if you are attacked you either fight back and defeat them or run away and that's the end of it.
People hold grudges, mobs don't.
It seems like we will be well-served to consciously stay aware of the difference between pvp and player harassment so we can be enthusiastically supportive of the former and condemn the latter; and raise that awareness among the curious onlookers investigating our game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am suggesting that abusing what is permissible by the game design rules and players exploiting their advantage to the fullest extent will be condoned.
I'm struggling to understand, but trying.
Your original quote was that players would "abuse (read exploit) those designs". If all you're saying is that players will exploit their advantages, then I'd say "of course". But "abuse" and "exploit" have different connotations - to me - when applied to "designs".
My hope is that players will choose to play within the intent of the designs, rather than adopting an attitude of "if the game systems allow it, then it's fair game".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Excellent advice Valkenr!
And I have said this before on other posts, but I will repeat it here: If you are adverse to PvP but are attacked and killed by someone in PFO (and this is likely if you're going to venture out of the protected areas), remember that that is part of the game, don't get overly upset about it, and by all means reach out to the player who killed you and ask the why's and wherefors. You will likely find that those PvPers are more than willing to provide you advice on how to better protect yourself in the future.
And that will make the game more fun for everyone!
You're living in a dream world. I've played MMO's for years now, and I've PvP-d in all of them. Reaching out to the person that killed you will typically get you the response "L2P Noob. lololol"
Well, my experience is very different than yours, then.
Or, perhaps you intended to say that that is how YOU respond to those who have reached out to you when you have PvP'd them? If so, I would say that perhaps you try a different approach in PFO and help those "noobs" out. It'll make the game a better experience for everyone (you included, if you appreciate a challenging opponent).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am suggesting that abusing what is permissible by the game design rules and players exploiting their advantage to the fullest extent will be condoned.
I think the following quote gives us a very clear understanding that exploiting game mechanics will not be permitted. Staying within the intended design should be fine, but exploiting implies otherwise.
will using such a loophole simply be considered part of the emergent play.I can answer this question because it's a general rule not a specific issue related to this system.
We're not a game where everything that is not forbidden is permitted. If you find a loophole, you shouldn't jump through it. Acceptable "Emergent play" is what happens when people use systems as intended to produce unexpected results. Figuring out how to neuter a planned limit is unacceptable.
This was in regards to using a grace period before you lose skills when between settlements as a way to maximize the number of supported skills you had floating. It is clear that this is considered abuse and will not be tolerated.
Here is the link to the original thread for context.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am suggesting that abusing what is permissible by the game design rules and players exploiting their advantage to the fullest extent will be condoned.I'm struggling to understand, but trying.
Your original quote was that players would "abuse (read exploit) those designs". If all you're saying is that players will exploit their advantages, then I'd say "of course". But "abuse" and "exploit" have different connotations - to me - when applied to "designs".
My hope is that players will choose to play within the intent of the designs, rather than adopting an attitude of "if the game systems allow it, then it's fair game".
In my opinion a Sandbox game allows for a set of rules that are more open than a traditional Themepark game. These rules allows for a large amount of variance of play styles among the player base. When you are having multiple people collide with different play styles in an open rule set, there are bound to be confrontations among players whom don't like how another player likes to play. The important thing is to realize that this is just opinion and not actually game intent, unless the game developers come out and starts making hard fast rulings on what is and not permissible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am suggesting that abusing what is permissible by the game design rules and players exploiting their advantage to the fullest extent will be condoned.I think the following quote gives us a very clear understanding that this will not be the case.
will using such a loophole simply be considered part of the emergent play.I can answer this question because it's a general rule not a specific issue related to this system.
We're not a game where everything that is not forbidden is permitted. If you find a loophole, you shouldn't jump through it. Acceptable "Emergent play" is what happens when people use systems as intended to produce unexpected results. Figuring out how to neuter a planned limit is unacceptable.
This was in regards to using a grace period before you lose skills when between settlements as a way to maximize the number of supported skills you had floating. It is clear that this is considered abuse and will not be tolerated.
Here is the link to the original thread for context.
That would be why I said in the very next sentence -
"If something is against game design intentions, it will be rectified by GW."My point is people will play how they want to play taking full of advantage of what they can and can't do. If it's not allowed, GW will let us know. I really don't understand all the back and forth about how people 'should' be playing this game. Each person and group is different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a lot of concern about open PvP being a gankfest.
A lot of the discussion is trying to rough out what people consider to negative play in the context of the discussion.
As far as unintended usage of mechanics goes, I do not believe that GW is aiming for a state where they are always putting out fires and adding more restrictions. If you violate the intended design, you will be in trouble. It will still be capable of being done, but yes, that one instance will have been rectified.
If the impact of an exploit is overwhelming or it is simply rampant, that is the point I would expect GW to step in and do something about it, mechanically.
Fwiw, I agree with your point that people will push the bounds of acceptable play. That is definitely something we should all be anticipating.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ FMS Quietus I think GW hopes to create an environment where people get a sense of their own as to what is allowable, and not wait for GW to step in and slap their wrist.
This is an interesting thread to read, start here: Arbitrary and Capricious
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Goblin Squad Member
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It doesn't matter if you pass judgement. What matters is if GW finds that if these "pushing boundaries" aren't in the spirit of a mechanic or the game than they will pass judgement, hopefully harsh judgement.
It's kind of hard to pass harsh judgment on a player if they're doing something allowed by game mechanics. The very fact that game mechanics allow something to happen is at least some evidence that the player's actions are permissible and it usually won't be unreasonable for a player to think some questionable action is permissible. There may be some clear examples where actions are obviously not acceptable but I think it's often not so clear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a lot of concern about open PvP being a gankfest.
A lot of the discussion is trying to rough out what people consider to negative play in the context of the discussion.
I get that. I think that's a valid concern because frankly it doesn't sound like much fun and could be severely detrimental to the long lasting appeal of the game.
I just think that a lot of this discussion is best left until we actually can get in game and experience how all this will go down. Some of the hypotheticals through various threads tend to spiral off into the character of the person or their group. I think that's not helpful on either side and honestly doesn't accomplish much. I'm hoping and have faith that GW will give clear lines on things that they deem not appropriate for their game.
I have no doubt that in the future more issues will arise that GW will have to rule on. Discussions like this will be more productive when we are playing the game because we will have tangible evidence to go by.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Excellent advice Valkenr!
And I have said this before on other posts, but I will repeat it here: If you are adverse to PvP but are attacked and killed by someone in PFO (and this is likely if you're going to venture out of the protected areas), remember that that is part of the game, don't get overly upset about it, and by all means reach out to the player who killed you and ask the why's and wherefors. You will likely find that those PvPers are more than willing to provide you advice on how to better protect yourself in the future.
And that will make the game more fun for everyone!
You're living in a dream world. I've played MMO's for years now, and I've PvP-d in all of them. Reaching out to the person that killed you will typically get you the response "L2P Noob. lololol"
I've played a few MMOs over the years and only in a small amount of them would that occur on a frequent basis. In SWG, 3/4 of the equipment on my ship was possible because rebel pilots traded parts with me. My shipwright built starfighters for rebels as well as Imperials (I later blew up a number of them in dogfights :) ). My dogfighting tactics improved because the rebels I fought gave constructive criticism, and I got just as many rebels into space PVP as I did Imperials.
Our community is what we make of it. There is no reason it can't be civilized if we want it to be that way. PVP in and of itself isn't toxic. If we act like jerks in PVP, however, it will get toxic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It doesn't matter if you pass judgement. What matters is if GW finds that if these "pushing boundaries" aren't in the spirit of a mechanic or the game than they will pass judgement, hopefully harsh judgement.It's kind of hard to pass harsh judgment on a player if they're doing something allowed by game mechanics. The very fact that game mechanics allow something to happen is at least some evidence that the player's actions are permissible and it usually won't be unreasonable for a player to think some questionable action is permissible. There may be some clear examples where actions are obviously not acceptable but I think it's often not so clear.
This question is really for everyone.
If you accidentally found a spot where you could stand and be invulnerable to attacks from monsters in a home hex, do you think it's acceptable to stay in that spot and farm those mobs until you get bored of it?
I would hope we end up with a community where that's not the expected player behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is all about having integrity. You will know if you discover something that isn't in the spirit of the game. If you do, have the integrity not to abuse it. Don't be one of those people that does something they know is wrong, but feels like they should get away with it because it is possible. If you can't tell for sure if something is working as it is intended, ask.
If everyone goes into the game with this attitude, the concept of exploits won't ever even be an issue.
For people that have the wrong attitude, don't expect to get away with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This question is really for everyone.
If you accidentally found a spot where you could stand and be invulnerable to attacks from monsters in a home hex, do you think it's acceptable to stay in that spot and farm those mobs until you get bored of it?
I would hope we end up with a community where that's not the expected player behavior.
If it's through clever use of terrain (like climbing on top of something that the mobs can't get to), which doesn't make you invulnerable but simply out of reach, then maybe. Example being standing on the roof to shoot zombie mobs in Darkfall.
If it's through glitches or exploits that are obviously unintended, no way, and I would hope that they (the exploits) would be reported immediately.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This question is really for everyone.
If you accidentally found a spot where you could stand and be invulnerable to attacks from monsters in a home hex, do you think it's acceptable to stay in that spot and farm those mobs until you get bored of it?
I would hope we end up with a community where that's not the expected player behavior.
I personally would not farm the mobs, I hate mundain and repetitive tasks. However, I would farm the farmer(s).
My band would wait until the farmer is full of mats and begins to head to the nearest market, and then we would SAD or ambush.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would have to agree with Lhan on that. I would report both situations to GW, just to be sure.
Edit: You could do that in Darkfall? I had no idea....
See, standing on a rooftop is an example of one I'd probably feel comfortable using without thinking too much about it. That would be a significant oversight if it never occurred to the devs that people might be on different elevations in combat, to the point where I'd assume it's intended that people might use rooftops to their advantage in that manner. At the very least it's not unreasonable for a player to view the situation as I do.
Now, if I found a spot I could lead an NPC to, to get him stuck in the terrain and where I could then safely kill it while it's stuck, that'd be something I'd consider an obvious exploit that I'd report.|
Goblin Squad Member
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Thinking about the player philosophy mentioned earlier proposing that if the mechanics permit an act it is implicitly sanctioned (despite Ryan's admonition to the contrary), I have an uneasy feeling that the team is rushing things for some reason. It isn't that I'm not eager for alpha and then EE, but rather I'm worried about system security.
While many of us players will simply play the game however we learn it is supposed to be played, some won't. We should recognize there will be players whose idea of play is, for example to hack serious advantage, such as poking information into the server that an opponent just suffered 10,000 falling damage in a way the server will believe. There will be some players who will figure out a way to trade goods with you without your knowledge. Open the bag and Oh Look: you just traded all your stuffs away to someone you didn't see for a copper. There are players who will insert code into the client letting them move items around in their inventory so fast the server loses track and they end up with a hundred of them (duping). And there will be unbeatable scripted bots with inhuman reaction times.
These things, or things like them, are almost certainly going to happen. They are what worry me looking at this accelerated schedule that isn't an April's Fool joke.
I'm not worried about PvP. I'm worried about porous code.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have an uneasy feeling that the team is rushing things for some reason.
I certainly hope not. That goes against everything that GW has said they are about. The whole reason they went with crowd funding was to avoid being rushed by investors in development. I am excited to play even if it is a very basic, massively incomplete game for EE, but I DO NOT want to rush them in any way. I have played too many MMOs that failed due to rushed development.
That being said, we should try to keep to the main objective of this thread which is to promote a good attitude about PvP in this game.
Everyone has had some great advice. In addition to what has been stated so far I would suggest:
Play a character build that is fun for you. Do not worry about if it is the best PvP templated build. Play what you want and play with people that are ok with you playing what you want. The moment that you find yourself playing the third of template Alpha K in the party and only do what you are told, make sure to ask yourself if that is what you want out of the game. A lot of people end up worrying about winning in PvP battles and lose sight of actually having fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you need to wall jump and use texture clipping to get on the rooftop, then it's obvious that you're using an exploit.
That should be a given; clipping is an obvious exploit.
Secondly, I feel I should refine my answer. In EE, I think we should assume that any such situations are possibly exploits, and report all of them. The devs will clarify whether they are or not, and we'll be able to gain an appreciation of what is felt to be acceptable and what is unacceptable. If it's still possible to climb onto a roof (fairly, without using exploits) and mow down zombies (actually, I DF I think it was ghouls) in OE, I will be taking that as working as intended and have no worries about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Part of being in alpha and beta product tests, which EE is a part of, also means that you are partly a bug tester.
Taking things a step further, since we have an investment in the success of this game, it is in our best interest to discover these things, report them and then not use them.
However, I believe the sentiment of using a system to its fullest potential is one that needs to be recognized. Any level of competitive play is going to embrace this. You do what it takes to win, and only the players who care about the game and their characters will ensure this does not include unsanctioned exploits, which at the very least GW needs to maintain a public list of prior to them being fixed. This is where the only line is drawn though, everything else is fair game. Further, once someone shows that it is possible to gain an advantage in a given way, that becomes the new standard by which all other competitive players are going to measure themselves against.
For a great many I think this is something that will be a new concept. One they might have toyed with, but not considered fully.
Fortunately, this is not something that will impact everyone, nor will it invade all aspects of the game in a significant fashion. Crafting and trading for example, there is a certain degree of common sense that will get you 95% of the way there. The other 5% is not a deal breaker for those who wish to succeed in that area.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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This question is really for everyone.
If you accidentally found a spot where you could stand and be invulnerable to attacks from monsters in a home hex, do you think it's acceptable to stay in that spot and farm those mobs until you get bored of it?
I would hope we end up with a community where that's not the expected player behavior.
If it's through clever use of terrain (like climbing on top of something that the mobs can't get to), which doesn't make you invulnerable but simply out of reach, then maybe. Example being standing on the roof to shoot zombie mobs in Darkfall.
If it's through glitches or exploits that are obviously unintended, no way, and I would hope that they (the exploits) would be reported immediately.
Interesting choice for a concrete example.
My opinion is that if the area is safe because of pathfinding bugs (the monsters should be able to get there, but get stuck on a wall), then it is clearly a bug and should be reported and not abused. It's less clear if there are places where PCs can get but monsters can't and shouldn't be able to; that's possibly intended, possibly a design flaw, possibly a bug, or possibly emergent behavior. I'd consider them on a case-by-case basis.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Secondly, I feel I should refine my answer. In EE, I think we should assume that any such situations are possibly exploits, and report all of them. The devs will clarify whether they are or not, and we'll be able to gain an appreciation of what is felt to be acceptable and what is unacceptable. If it's still possible to climb onto a roof (fairly, without using exploits) and mow down zombies (actually, I DF I think it was ghouls) in OE, I will be taking that as working as intended and have no worries about it.
I'm pretty sure it was ghouls. For anyone interested, the method used involved having someone use the Repel ability to push an ally up and away onto the rooftop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly, I don't agree with you a bit. There is no money at stake, this is not a competition even though some player can play like it was, it's not. So no, it should absolutely not be excused or "recognised", to use exploit to gain an advantage.
It absolutely is a competition, in any aspect that you wish to think about. Example:
You are a crafter of swords. You can craft them to quality 250 and the average market price for them is 8 gold each.
Another crafter moved into your area, and he can craft the same swords at a quality of 275 and he only charges 7 gold each, because he has access to raw materials cheaper than you.
You begin to see your sales slump and you are forced to drop your prices. This helps in the short term, but your rival's swords are still higher quality. Long term, you are being put out of business.
1. Go out of business
2. Train to have higher skills yourself, undercut his prices
3. Make something else
4. Convince him he should charge more because his quality is better, and create a lower niche for yourself.
5. Hire bandits to raid his raw material supply lInes
6. Hire an Assassin
This is all competitive and probably even what could be considered PvP combat, just it's not military it is economic PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regardless of the actual mechanics involved, each of us understands that there is a reasonable expectation of what the risk versus reward ratio is in any game. If you find a way to imbalance that ratio such that you are gaining far more reward than is warranted from the degree of risk to which you are subjected, then you're exploiting.
Its really not much more complicated than that.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Honestly, I don't agree with you a bit. There is no money at stake, this is not a competition even though some player can play like it was, it's not. So no, it should absolutely not be excused or "recognised", to use exploit to gain an advantage.It absolutely is a competition, in any aspect that you wish to think about. Example:
You are a crafter of swords. You can craft them to quality 250 and the average market price for them is 8 gold each.
Another crafter moved into your area, and he can craft the same swords at a quality of 275 and he only charges 7 gold each, because he has access to raw materials cheaper than you.
You begin to see your sales slump and you are forced to drop your prices. This helps in the short term, but your rival's swords are still higher quality. Long term, you are being put out of business.
1. Go out of business
2. Train to have higher skills yourself, undercut his prices
3. Make something else
4. Convince him he should charge more because his quality is better, and create a lower niche for yourself.
5. Hire bandits to raid his raw material supply lInes
6. Hire an AssassinThis is all competitive and probably even what could be considered PvP combat, just it's not military it is economic PvP.
7. Make a wholesale contract with him to buy his entire production line and resell is.
8. Talk to his suppliers and get the raw materials at his price.9. Lobby the settlement that controls his production line to implement protective policies.
10. Start a campaign to boycott his swords for a nominally unrelated reason.
11. Provide extra services like delivery or returns.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It absolutely is a competition, in any aspect that you wish to think about. Example:
You are a crafter of swords. You can craft them to quality 250 and the average market price for them is 8 gold each.
Another crafter moved into your area, and he can craft the same swords at a quality of 275 and he only charges 7 gold each, because he has access to raw materials cheaper than you.
You begin to see your sales slump and you are forced to drop your prices. This helps in the short term, but your rival's swords are still higher quality. Long term, you are being put out of business.
1. Go out of business
2. Train to have higher skills yourself, undercut his prices
3. Make something else
4. Convince him he should charge more because his quality is better, and create a lower niche for yourself.
5. Hire bandits to raid his raw material supply lInes
6. Hire an AssassinThis is all competitive and probably even what could be considered PvP combat, just it's not military it is economic PvP.
I could argue about your notion of competition, but that isn't the point. The point is that the "winner" will not win IRL money or a medal for his country etc. There isn't any compelling reason to use exploit except gaining an unfair advantage over other players. Which is why we shouldn't consider it a "normal" thing. In football for example (the real one, not your fake rugby :p), you can't really punish someone using a loophole of the rules, because there is billions of euros at stake. That's why France was qualified over Ireland in the last World Cup, even though we totally cheated. But in PFO, we should have a very strict policy over obvious exploit.