Aqueous Orb + Resilient Sphere question

[Rokugan]

Hey guys, I have a question about a combination of two spells.

Do you think is possible to combine the effects of both resilient sphere and aqueous orb? I talked a bit about it with a friend of mine and he said that in his opinion, it's not possible, but personally I don't see anything that would make it like that. Before using it in an actual game I would like to be sure of it.

So basically I was thinking of a situation where the enemy get inside the aqueous orb (10ft diameter) and after that I trap him inside that with a 7ft diameter resilient sphere so that he can't break free and he will possibly keep taking the 2d6 non lethal damage till the end of the orb.

I don't know in the end, to make this work you need the enemy to fail couple saving throws, be small enough to fit in the sphere, not able to breath water just to take 2d6 points of non-lethal damage, but it looks pretty cool so I don't mind using it if it works I guess.

Thanks for the help!

[Tomos]

Looks like it might work at CL 10.
Trying to make a smaller Resilient Sphere inside of the Aqueous Orb sounds like a mechanical conflict of some kind. I can't think of how to manage it, or if it matters at all.
There's no reason (that I can think of) why you can't put a Resilient Sphere around an Aqueous Orb, but why would you want to?

The target would get a reflex save for the Resilient Sphere, assuming that they are already engulfed by the Aqueous Orb.
However, there seems to be a rule conflict with the concept of saving and therefore escaping the Resilient Sphere, while simultaneously having the effect of escaping the Aqueous Orb, which requires its own special non-action action. Maybe the target doesn't get a save against the sphere because the outcome violates the orb rules?
In any case, they take a Dex penalty (entangled) which will help land it.

The real problem I'm thinking of is, what's the point?
If you're angling for an easy way to trap someone in a Resilient Sphere, I can see an argument for the combo. But, I imagine there are easier ways to do this.
The sphere will last a lot longer than the orb, so this will not be useful for drowning an enemy, as the water will simply vanish after a few rounds.

If you just want to wreck someone with Aqueous Orb, hit them with Hideous Laughter first.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Your friend is right on this matter, and for good reason.

Let's take Resilient Sphere. If you're throwing this spell on an enemy, he will have to either try to destroy it (good luck getting past Hardness 30 and 20 HP/CL in a couple rounds), dispel it through Dispel Magic, or teleport out of the square affected. Remember that besides being dispellable, allowable to breathe, it still retains all other restrictions of Wall of Force.

If you cast Resilient Sphere on the enemy, you cannot follow up with Aqueous Orb, given the clause of Wall of Force:

Wall of Force wrote:

Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction...

Let's just say your Aqueous Orb will be right next to the Resilient Sphere, trying to get in and failing hard.

If you try to initiate with Aqueous Orb, look at this:

Aqueous Orb wrote:

Any creature in the path of the aqueous orb takes 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. A successful Reflex save negates this damage, but a large or smaller creature that fails its save must make a second save or be engulfed by the aqueous orb and carried along with it.

So there are two saves, one being conditional. The first is a save v.s. 2D6 nonlethal (which is silly nowadays). The second one follows the same as the first, except in order for it to be applicable, the first one has to have been a failed save. Requiring enemies to fail 2 consecutive saves in order to simply try and make them suffocate to death does not do you any favors, and then tacking on a 4th level spell in hopes that their Constitution Score doesn't equate to being higher than 10 or 12 tops (Extend would really help this matter out, but still...) in order for it to do anything, seems like a lot of work for something which could be done with a couple other well-placed, higher spells down the road.

Even if you did pull the 2 failed saves off, the interaction between a pre-cast Aqueous Orb, which is larger than the length of the Resilient Sphere, leads to stacking issues: Does the Aqueous Orb trap whatever water fits within the Resilient Sphere's area, the other water being excess and therefore removed/destroyed? Or does the Aqueous Orb simply disperse once the Resilient Sphere is thrown up, since the Aqueous Orb would technically be passing through the Resilient Sphere's area of effect, which spells cannot do.

Long story short: Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray. and Acid Arrow are better spell choices here to accomplish what you want, which is to permanently lock down a goober.

[Rokugan]

Thanks guys for the extended answers! I guess I will just use them separatly and look for other spells to do a better trap/lockdown:)

@Tomos I've seen that discussed before, about the laughter but I'm still not sure if it works.

[Smallberries]

I don't like this. If you had a bigger resilient sphere, maybe. But resilient sphere follows the same kind of mechanics as Wall of Force (it's not spelled out but it's pretty clear they mean this is a small, spherical wall of force).

Given that, I'd think a spell effect that took place inside the sphere, that was also larger than the sphere, would be cancelled. I'd probably also say that if you could make a sphere big enough to contain the spell effect, it would continue.

Basically, the tactic is OK, but you have to be much higher level to pull it off. I don't have anything to back this up with, that's just how I'd handle it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

What if you trapped someone within the area of a cloudkill with Resilient Sphere? The sphere would be filled with the poisonous gas along with the victim, right?

...Sometimes I think certain spell combos should get the [evil] tag even if none of the component spells have it.

[Rokugan]

Uhm so basically the wall of force says "Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction" does this mean that it will dispell magic created inside the resilient sphere? This is the only solution that came to mind, basically because if it traps, it's not something that might appears small and grow larger like and orb could do, but simply materialize at the given size so either it dispels magic effects inside or already existing magics are left untouched but it prevents them from going out or getting it.

@StreamOfTheSky I totally agree

[Smallberries]

I've changed my mind on this, a little bit, given StreamOfTheSky's and Rokugan's comments. Perhaps the spell effect should continue inside the sphere. I think it does; they make a good case. I would say the aqueous orb does not extend beyond the sphere - its effect is fully contained within the sphere.

Here's the controversial part: can you move the aqueous orb when it's inside a resilient sphere? I think you cannot. The ability to move the sphere is part of the spell effect, and since it's inside an object that does not permit spell effects through, I'd say no on that one.

[andreww]

I don't believe you can move the Orb if you enclose it inside a Resilient Sphere as the sphere is stationary.

Personally I quite like to roll Orb into a Create Pit/Acid Pit/Hungry Pit spell. Creatures trapped inside the Orb cant avoid falling in as they taken along with the Orb and arguably they cannot then escape as the orb perfectly fits inside the Pit and there is no adjacent square to escape into.

[Tomos]

And then you look down into the pit and summon a shark into the Aqueous Orb.