Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
My wife and myself have been working on play testing / fleshing out a new homebrew class based on the mythic system for the past couple months. The concept we started with was to make a full class that by level 20 would be the equivalent to a mythic rank 10 level 20 character, as a new type of mythic system to use for various npc's, or mythic campaigns. This particular class is based very very very loosely one the concept of Rune Lords from rise of the rune lords. We are looking for general feedback on the concept of mythic classes, as well as class specific feedback and suggestions for class specific feats and Rune powers. We have a few rune powers already that are not listed on the linked document as we are still play testing their viability before adding them there. Any feedback and suggestions is greatly appreciated.
Class document Link: Rune Lord Class
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Still looking for any type of feedback on this, class critiques, thoughts on having a "mythic class" suggestions for the rune powers, anything.
First things first, I'm the only person who doesn't know how to do colors on their google docs because I'm an idiot.
Second, this kind of concept is pretty hard to judge, although it seems like it has EVERY spell in the game basically (some druid/paladin/etc outliers aside), which is really way more powerful than any mythic path allows. By a wide margin. No prep, just all magic instantly. I would never play a different class ever. While some things in the class help balance it (limited schools, no long casting times), starting with Conjuration would already be pretty brutal for play ability.
A good Fort and 3/4ths BAB cements this, as this class is probably better at melee than melee could ever be considering the spells the Wizard and Cleric list have to bolster someone. This could have no class features at all and still be FAR too good.
Slight nitpick: Runelords are able to wear light armor, but not cast in it? I mean it's not hard to get something decent down to 0% Arcane spell failure,
Also pretty sure you mean "Somatic", not semantic, for the type of component they're requiring.
It's also a wisdom based class that's requiring will saves to cast...that's powerful as hell. And the saves for the spells don't really scale that well, since you're getting +1 to your will save every 2 levels, which is as often as you're increasing the DCs, so anything boosting your will save makes this trivial pretty quickly (and also limits your early game to not casting non associated runes.
Another problem is that you've equated all magical schools as equal...they are not. A way to help with the scaling issue could be making certain classes (aside form primary rune school) easier to cast from. Conjuration should be difficult as hell, but Enchantment should be a walk in the park.
The rest doesn't seem TOO crazy, but I'm not really sure I like how much of a departure this is from how the game is normally played.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
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First things first, I'm the only person who doesn't know how to do colors on their google docs because I'm an idiot.
Right click a table and click on table properties.
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Second, this kind of concept is pretty hard to judge, although it seems like it has EVERY spell in the game basically (some druid/paladin/etc outliers aside), which is really way more powerful than any mythic path allows. By a wide margin. No prep, just all magic instantly. I would never play a different class ever. While some things in the class help balance it (limited schools, no long casting times), starting with Conjuration would already be pretty brutal for play ability.
I do kind of agree and was hesitant at first with the openness of the spells they know, however through play testing the limitations we put did balance it out pretty well and well enough to be balanced as far as mythic play was concerned. (also note the class is primarily intended for npc's in mythic campaigns, not sure how likely i would be to allow players rune lords)
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A good Fort and 3/4ths BAB cements this, as this class is probably better at melee than melee could ever be considering the spells the Wizard and Cleric list have to bolster someone. This could have no class features at all and still be FAR too good.
Maybe if you had multiple rounds of prep before a combat started but all spells requiring somatic components really limits their melee versatility.
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Slight nitpick: Runelords are able to wear light armor, but not cast in it? I mean it's not hard to get something decent down to 0% Arcane spell failure
We dedcided to actually get rid of their armor proficiency a while ago and had forgotten to remove it from the document.
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Also pretty sure you mean "Somatic", not semantic, for the type of component they're requiring.
oopsy!
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It's also a wisdom based class that's requiring will saves to cast...that's powerful as hell. And the saves for the spells don't really scale that well, since you're getting +1 to your will save every 2 levels, which is as often as you're increasing the DCs, so anything boosting your will save makes this trivial pretty quickly (and also limits your early game to not casting non associated runes.
A point very very well taken, we actually dropped their will saves to a low save to help balance it out. As far as not casting non primary runes it just means they are more likely to use up resources, but in a pinch the resources are worth it for the spells.
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Another problem is that you've equated all magical schools as equal...they are not. A way to help with the scaling issue could be making certain classes (aside form primary rune school) easier to cast from. Conjuration should be difficult as hell, but Enchantment should be a walk in the park.
I do in fact believe all schools of magic are pretty much even, every last one has spells that can be very uniquely used for the same general power level. Enchantment being easier to cast? i find it to be one of the single most useful schools in the game, whether in typical RP situations or in battles enchanting enemies to fight for you, or other various uses.
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The rest doesn't seem TOO crazy, but I'm not really sure I like how much of a departure this is from how the game is normally played.
As a mythic class it is intended to be different than normal. Thank you very veyr much for your feed back so far you helped point out a couple of things i hadn't considered and it is greatly appreciated.
I'd still say that many schools of magic are not equal. If you want to work under the assumption they are, this works better, but I'm sure that there's those who will agree with me that the super schools of Conjuration and Transmutation are hard to beat, especially by divination and enchantment.
Personal request, can you increase the font size? It's a little difficult to read. Also might want to use more spacing, some of the walls of text are a bit intimidating to carve through.
I will admit, by no fault of your own, it's annoying figuring out which cleric spells are in which school. It's just irritating.
And yeah, with prep time this thing will DOMINATE melee. Just think of all the transmutation spells clerics get that super charge them.
I didn't check out the class abilities now, but I'll get on that now.
Rune Casting: I like that it's flavorful, it feels very "boss" like. Not sure about the limitations for divination/universal, there some explanation for that? Just since they're not tied to a sin/virtue?
Adding somatic components is nice, but it's mostly flavor to me.
How does Rune Casting interact with metamagic, particularly quicken spell? Can they use quicken spell, or not?
I do appreciate the full round casting time, although I think all casters should require it.
Rune Sight: Not bad, it seems fun and not too powerful.
Rune Pool: Have to keep reminding myself this is for mythic, so the recharge mechanic isn't terrible considering that. The only problem I see with it is that at first it feels too good when your friends are recharging powers daily, and at later game it feels weak when they're getting more and more mythic uses. It feels like it needs to scale better.
The bonus to hit/damage is seriously low, especially considering everything else they can do. I'd say one point used gives you a bonus equal to your RL level, that'd be more in keeping instead of burning like 5 for a +5 to hit and damage. Although honestly I'd just hoard them to reroll saves.
Rune Feat: Totally fine, basically needed to pick up mythic feats for this class.
The wording on Insightful Scribing is a little muddy, but it seems like another ability with a lacking scaling DC, making it easy to make the DC every time. I do appreciate the example though, it does help a little.
Rune Sense: Again flavorful, but pretty meh unless it's a rune heavy game.
Rune Weapon: Now this I like, seems like the class is intended to be a mixed melee/magic class from how the abilities work together. Very nice though, probably my fave ability so far.
Rune Shift: Greater T-port at 8th level is pretty intense, maybe 10 for that? And does Gate require material components? Might want to specify if Gate's only for traveling instead of free monsters to destroy God.
Rune Power: This seems like it's coming a little late, maybe this could be at 8 instead?
Rune Plane: This works, it's fun and it's not overpowered.
Immortal: Basically catching up to some mythic stuff, it works well enough in that respect.
Rune Well: Actually underwhelming, it seemed pretty tame for a 20th level mythic ability.
I hope this helps, I know I've been making a better class with my (mystic) Warlock thanks to feed back, although this is a hard class to critique since the idea behind it is so new and unlike any other.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
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I'd still say that many schools of magic are not equal. If you want to work under the assumption they are, this works better, but I'm sure that there's those who will agree with me that the super schools of Conjuration and Transmutation are hard to beat, especially by divination and enchantment.
I think that comes down a lot to flavor of the game in general and player style as well, but we could probably debate that until we're blue in the face with varying examples on both sides :)
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Personal request, can you increase the font size? It's a little difficult to read. Also might want to use more spacing, some of the walls of text are a bit intimidating to carve through.
Font size increased i'll space it out better later
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I will admit, by no fault of your own, it's annoying figuring out which cleric spells are in which school. It's just irritating.
100% agreed :)
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And yeah, with prep time this thing will DOMINATE melee. Just think of all the transmutation spells clerics get that super charge them.
Most fights don't have alot of prep time though, and the ones that do typically are going to be against big badies anyway where a transmuter rune lord would be a serious bonus to the party, or if it's a boss with the prep time a seriously difficult fight that would be very rewarding to overcome
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Rune Casting: I like that it's flavorful, it feels very "boss" like. Not sure about the limitations for divination/universal, there some explanation for that? Just since they're not tied to a sin/virtue?
That's from the rise of the rune lords mythos that the class is based around, divination was considered to be universal magic, and since their magic isn't the same as actual magic they would need access to all schools of magic to make something universal, hence why they don't get it till they have all schools unlocked
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Adding somatic components is nice, but it's mostly flavor to me.
it's also a pretty good balancing factor since it requires them to have a free hand for every spell they cast, it negates being able to wield two handers or duel wield. Considering not allowing them to ever take still spell.
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How does Rune Casting interact with metamagic, particularly quicken spell? Can they use quicken spell, or not?
For the play test we have switched to not allowing meta magic or item creation for them as the magic isn't the same but still haven't decided 100% on it so would love your thoughts.
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I do appreciate the full round casting time, although I think all casters should require it.
We actually added that cause we had a system that required all magic to be full round and it would not go into effect until the end of a round, liked it so much i thought it would be a neat addition to this class, and also help balance it a ton.
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Rune Pool: Have to keep reminding myself this is for mythic, so the recharge mechanic isn't terrible considering that. The only problem I see with it is that at first it feels too good when your friends are recharging powers daily, and at later game it feels weak when they're getting more and more mythic uses. It feels like it needs to scale better.
I'm still up in the air about it being after rest or not, on one hand there are mythic powers that allow really quick recharging /preparing of spells, but i don't think there's any that get rid of the daily requirement.
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The bonus to hit/damage is seriously low, especially considering everything else they can do. I'd say one point used gives you a bonus equal to your RL level, that'd be more in keeping instead of burning like 5 for a +5 to hit and damage. Although honestly I'd just hoard them to reroll saves.
Gonna change it to bonus equal to half level min 1 and see how it plays out. I think full level bonus might be a bit much for it.
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The wording on Insightful Scribing is a little muddy, but it seems like another ability with a lacking scaling DC, making it easy to make the DC every time. I do appreciate the example though, it does help a little.
I am trying to find a way to write it more concisely, as far as the dc to make it i very rarely make the dc's for insightful scribing so almost always pay the extra costs in testing, i've halfway been considering lowering it. and the intense resource usage of it even with a made save still makes it an ability used rarely, but very helpful in a pinch.
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seems like the class is intended to be a mixed melee/magic class from how the abilities work together.
Or easily to be specialised one way or the other, yes. Also something that was added due to the rise of the rune lords.
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Rune Shift: Greater T-port at 8th level is pretty intense, maybe 10 for that? And does Gate require material components? Might want to specify if Gate's only for traveling instead of free monsters to destroy God.
Gate is being reworded to dictate it is only used for travel
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Rune Power: This seems like it's coming a little late, maybe this could be at 8 instead?
The rune powers are balanced out with the rest of their abilities to keep on par with mythic charactors, coming sooner would make them a bit over powered for those lower levels, and have them gain too many mythic powers by level 20
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Rune Well: Actually underwhelming, it seemed pretty tame for a 20th level mythic ability.
summoning mythic minions, casting through scrying and a death avoider seems underwhelming? I've been worried it was too much for a cap stone, even if it was mythic. Why do you believe it's underpowered?
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I hope this helps, I know I've been making a better class with my (mystic) Warlock thanks to feed back, although this is a hard class to critique since the idea behind it is so new and unlike any other.
You're help thus far has been very insightful and helpful, and i am very glad that you think the idea is very unlike any other, coming up with something new and unique in the world of table top role playing is close to impossible now adays :)
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