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Hi everyone,
This is not a build advice thread. :)
Recently, my druid died in an end-of-book fight in our Carrion Crown campaign. I am going through some ideas for a character.
Our party consists of:
- alchemist/gunslinger
- cavalier/monk
- inquisitor/cleric
- monk/wizard
- ranger
The inquisitor/cleric is mainly focused on the inquisitor side (inquisitor 8/cleric 1) and the monk/wizard is mainly focused on the monk side (monk 8/wizard 1). We lack a lot of arcane and divine muscle. So I am thinking a mystic theurge would be a good addition (I am not a fan of the witch class).
My question is: would a mystic theurge be a decent addition to this party or should I go the single-caster route?
I'd say so. Mystic Theurge is (almost) the perfect support build. I'd play it as such.
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Not to say Mystic Theurge isn't a good choice, but note that a big part of cleric is channeling to heal, which the Mystic Theurge can't really do.
To give you other options, for better or worse, you could consider:
Oracle of Flame: Cast cleric spells (cure, remove disease, restoration, etc), but get decent blasting spells (burning hands, fireball, etc.). Still can't channel, and doesn't get the arcane type spells (except the fire spells), but you do get full cleric casting and oracle revelations. If your GM uses third party stuff, there's a 3rd party feat that lets you take a revelation from another Oracle type, so you could use that to take channeling from the Oracle of Life (but I personally don't use 3rd party stuff). Also, can get a good UMD (high CHA) to handle other arcane spells using items like scrolls, staves and wands.
Theologian Cleric with Fire Domain. You get full cleric spellcasting, full cleric channeling, can melee like a cleric, and with the Fire Domain, gain access to blasting spells which can be memorized in regular spell slots.
Any Cleric with Fire Domain. Pick up Heighten Spell, 5 ranks in Spellcraft and at 5th level take Preferred Spell (Fireball). I think it works RAW, but you might want to check with your GM.
Going the other direction (Arcane with Curing) is harder. Leaving aside the Witch, you could try:
Samsaran Sorceror (any bloodline) taking the Cure Spells from Bard. Like the oracle above, high CHA means good UMD so you can handle other cleric spells with scrolls, wands and staves.
and that's all I can think of!
Doubtlessly there are other options. Part of it depends on what you are looking for. If you consider blasting, both area affect and at range, to be most important on the arcane side, then the above works. If you want more general arcane support, or a battlefield controller arcane caster, then the above isn't so good, but you might get by using other domains?
Good luck and have fun!
Mystic theurge is a very weak class. You'll find yourself so far behind in spell level that your options for buffing and control are limited. Worst of all, your save DCs will be horrible as you are casting low level spells and are forced to spread your casting stat between two separate stats. On top of that, once you hit MT 10 you have to choose which class to continue progressing, which hits your power level even more.
If you are going for mystic theurge the only particularly viable way to do so is to cheese into it via racial SLAs.
You might have more fun playing as the 'false priest' sorcerer archetype, who has some limited access to divine spells. In terms of straight up battlefield control/buffing potential, pure wizard has both of these things down pat. You really don't need those divine spells in there.
Mystic theurge's lack the save DCs to be highly effective when casting against opponents, so be sure to stick to no-save spells.
I personally like to use spontaneous casters as a base to cash in on the huge amount of spells you'll have then.
Mystic Theurge is best when early entry can be gained. Take a race with a 2nd level arcane spell-like ability (like a tiefling) and/or grab one of the domains that grants a similar 2nd level divine spell-like ability (like the fate inquisitor domain) and get in as soon as possible. Regardless, you won't be overpowered, but you will be more useful to your group.
The Cleric 2/Empyreal Sorc 1/MT 10 route is pretty solid. You are SAD with Wis based casting. You are only 1 level behind in cleric progression, basically on par with oracles. And can pick up a healthy dose of arcane casting to supplement, as you are only 2 levels behind on sorc progression.
At level 10, for example, you'd be casting 5th level cleric spells (CL 9), and 4th level arcane spells (CL 8).
This is easy enough to accomplish with an aasimar variant and the trickery domain for entry. It also happens to be thematically consistent and flavorful, imo.
This kind of character would fit your desired role perfectly, able to handle the dual role of your divine and arcane problem solver.
Early entry is a must, but beyond that you can be an effective battlefield controller, buffer/debuffer and healer. If your character is starting at level 9 then a lot of the headache early levels are avoidable too.
The idea that Mystic Theurges are underpowered and too MAD only really applies if you don't use early entry via SLAs and split your arcane and divine classes equally. You only need 1 level and an appropriate SLA in your secondary class. If you focus entirely on either divine *or* arcane you only need 14 in the casting stat for your nondominant class, boosted to 16 with gear to get access to level 6 spells. Being a near-full-progression mage who can also cast restoration is better than being kind-of-alright at both divine and arcane magics.
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If you want to go Wizard primary Cleric secondary, I recommend the Tiefling with Trickery domain. You pick up some nice class skills and have the Intelligence to use them. Since you're not going to be channeling for effect anyway, Charisma isn't all that important really.
Note: You can do this a whole one level later without being a Tiefling or Aasimar if you don't want that specific flavor. Not advising against Tiefling, just noting that it's not a necessity to make this work.
Wizard 3/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge X isn't quite as good as the version with Wizard 2 in the short term, since your cleric casting winds up delayed a level, but that isn't the end of the world, and at 14th level plus it's literally identical.
Just for the record. I mean Trickery Domain or Fate Inquisition required as your only necessity is a lot more conceptually open than needing a specific race.
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True. It's a matter of racial preferences;
Human: extra feat and skills, since you won't be getting Favored Class with prestige.
Elf: elven magic. However, sacrifice some Con, but gain Dex.
Half-Elf: using Drow Magic alternate racial, early entry. Only mild racial issues.
Tiefling: early entry, darkvision, and good ability adjustments for Wizard. The bonus to Stealth and Bluff combos nicely with getting those as class skills from the Trickery domain. The tail is good for scrolls, and wiz/cleric means you even get to scribe cleric spells. Some minor energy resistances and some good racial feats available. Downside: even less channeling, racial prejudices.
Aasimar: early entry, darkvision, some good skill bonuses. No penalty to abilities but there's always a bonus to at least one casting stat available. The resistances are not quite as good as the tiefling ones but still nice. Scion of Humanity avoids racial prejudices, although that's already less an issue than for tieflings.
There's something to be said for each of them.
The Cleric 2/Empyreal Sorc 1/MT 10 route is pretty solid.
You can get access with cleric 1/sorc 1 can't you? My immediate thought is drow heritage half elf variant with trickery domain into empyreal sorc, but as you mentioned I'm sure you could do it with aasimar too.
That'd put you only 1 CL behind each side, which would make the whole thing extremely viable.
The Cleric 2/Empyreal Sorc 1/MT 10 route is pretty solid.You can get access with cleric 1/sorc 1 can't you? My immediate thought is drow heritage half elf variant with trickery domain into empyreal sorc, but as you mentioned I'm sure you could do it with aasimar too.
That'd put you only 1 CL behind each side, which would make the whole thing extremely viable.
MT require 3 skill ranks. Hard minimum of level 3. You could go Clr2/Sor1 or Clr1/Sor2. I find Clr2/Sor1 better, as that keeps your divine progression on par with oracle progression. Clr1/Sor2 puts you a level behind sorc progression.
You just get higher level spells earlier that way is all, but both function just fine. 2nd at 4 vs at 5. 3rd at 6 vs 7. 4th at 8 vs 9. etc.
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The Cleric 2/Empyreal Sorc 1/MT 10 route is pretty solid.You can get access with cleric 1/sorc 1 can't you? My immediate thought is drow heritage half elf variant with trickery domain into empyreal sorc, but as you mentioned I'm sure you could do it with aasimar too.
That'd put you only 1 CL behind each side, which would make the whole thing extremely viable.
You also need K:Religion and K:Arcane both at 3, before going in.
Fair enough, I missed that somehow.
There is a way to continue MT leveling after 10. what you do is take divine obedience, and then take levels in evangelist. This hurts your progression on both classes one more, but after you are golden. If you do take this route I would suggest picking your deity carefully., and going evangalist as early as possible as it is baseline a better class as it gets 3/4 bab and 6 skills per level.
I will contradict people here and say that you should go wizard cleric.
first of all make wizard your primary class so start with an intelligence of 18 and a wisdom of 14-16. boost int every time you get a chance, and go 2wizard/1cleric/1mystic theurge/10evangalist/6mystic theurge. Do not be a regular wizard be a thassilonian(sin specialist) wizard, that way you get more spells per day, and your prohibited don't hurst so much as you have those schools as a cleric. Of course choose your school wisely, as it has massive impact on what your character can do. take the trait that gives 2 cl back to your class of choice, and choose wizard.
since you will be starting lvl 9 this takes a lot of the pain away from the build, as you will start with lvl 4 arcane spells.
Take spell focus and greater spell focus for your specialization to keep up with DC's and later on take persistent spell, to really make those save or sucks stick.
What deity's and wizard schools are good for your build Hogeyhead?
There is a way to continue MT leveling after 10. what you do is take divine obedience, and then take levels in evangelist. This hurts your progression on both classes one more, but after you are golden. If you do take this route I would suggest picking your deity carefully., and going evangalist as early as possible as it is baseline a better class as it gets 3/4 bab and 6 skills per level.
I will contradict people here and say that you should go wizard cleric.
first of all make wizard your primary class so start with an intelligence of 18 and a wisdom of 14-16.
I don't think the evangelist trick lets you go above MT 10. MT 11 is null. I wouldn't take evangelist unless you're really going to use the 3/4 bab because you lose another level of spell progression.