| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, they do now, anyways. Feel free to offer thoughts. If you have non-ridiculous builds (Animal/Nature Oracle, infinite spell loops are ignored, etc) that can beat them, please point out the weakness to me so I can determine if it's something a deity ought to be able to counteract.
Full thread here.
Alter Reality (Su) As a full round action, a god can alter reality by spending a use of mythic power. This is similar to a wish or miracle, except that it can duplicate 9th level spell effects or lower from any class. A god can only use this ability to produce effects in line with its portfolio. Within its realm, this is a standard action, and the restrictions on what constitutes an effect in line with its portfolio are relaxed within reason.
Divine Attacks A deity does not miss on a natural 1.
Divine Aura A deity has one. Sometimes it does stuff.
Divine Blast (Optional) A divine blast deals xd12 damage, where x = the deity's HD + Charisma modifier. A divine blast requires an expenditure of mythic power as a swift action and a ranged touch attack to strike. The blast has no max range, and requires only that the deity can perceive the targeted individual or area.
Divine Checks A deity gains a +10 bonus on all ability and skill checks.
Divine Initiative A demigod acts on its initiative and its initiative -5. A god also acts on its initiative -10. A greater god also acts on its initiative -15.
Divine Saves Against non-divine threats, a god rolls 2d20 and takes the best on all saves. A deity does not fail on a natural 1.
Divine Senses Within 5 miles, a demigod takes no distance penalty on any skill checks. Within 10 miles, a god takes no distance penalty on any skill checks. Within 20 miles, a greater god takes no distance penalty on skill checks.
In addition, any distance based penalties have their amounts increased by one order of magnitude per divine tier.
Divine Shield (Optional) A deity's divine shield can withstand 10 points of damage per HD before falling. A divine shield requires an expenditure of mythic power as an immediate action.
Immortality If slain by a non-divine opponent, a deity returns to life in its realm immediately. If slain by a divine opponent (or by a non-divine opponent twice in the same day), it returns to life within 24 hours. Only special circumstances can arrange the true death of a god.
Resistance A deity reduces ability damage, drain and negative levels by 5 points or levels per tier. A deity is not slain or paralyzed if its ability scores are reduced to 0, or if it gains a number of negative levels equal to its HD.
Unstoppable (Ex) If a deity starts its turn suffering from any or all of the following conditions, it recovers from them at the end of its turn: blind, confused, dazed, deafened, dazzled, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, sickened, slowed, staggered, and stunned.
[size=140]Iomedae[/size] (CR 40)
Female human paladin 30//fighter 30
LG Medium Outsider (augmented humanoid, good, lawful)
Init +50; Senses darkvision, divine senses, Perception +51
Aura divine paladin (1000 ft.; see below)
Languages Celestial, Common, Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Ignan, Orc; truespeech
_____________________________________________________________
AC 76, touch 42, flat-footed 70, combat 73
(+19 armor, +5 defense, +11 deflection, +6 Dex, +15 natural, +10 shield)
hp 1120 (30d10 + 300 plus 420); DR 20/-; DR 40/epic and evil
Immune charm, compulsion, fear
Resist acid 30, cold 30, electricity 30, fire 30, sonic 30; SR 51
Defense heavy fortification, immortality, mythic missile shield, mythic shield focus, unstoppable
Fort +38, Ref +28, Will +36
_____________________________________________________________
Speed 180 ft.
Melee 4 swords +56 (1d8 + 41 plus 7d6 holy /15-20/x4 plus exhaustion, blind (DC 35), cripple (DC 35), deaf (DC 35), stagger (DC 35) and disarm) and
3 shields +52 (1d6 + 27 plus bullrush /x3 plus fatigue, blind (DC 35), deaf (DC 35), stagger (DC 35) and disarm)
Melee 4 smite evils +67 (1d8 + 71 plus 7d6 holy /15-20/x4 and critical feats) and
3 smiting shields +63 (1d6 + 57 plus bullrush /x3 and critical feats)
Melee Vital Strike +56 (4d8 + 164 plus 7d6 holy /15-20/x4 and critical feats)
Melee Power Vital Strike +49 (4d8 + 248 plus 7d6 holy /15-20/x4 and critical feats)
Melee Vital Smite +67 (4d8 + 284 plus 7d6 holy /15-20/x3 and critical feats)
Melee Power Vital Smite +60 (4d8 + 368 plus 7d6 holy /15-20/x4 and critical feats)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +25 Combat +36 (+60 disarm)
Atk Options greater disarm, mythic power attack (-7, +21), mythic greater vital strike, smite evil (+11 atk, +30 dmg), sudden attack
Special Actions alter reality (DC 36), channel energy (90 hp), lay on hands (90 hp and mercy), mythic (38/day), reroll (10/day), surge (15/day, 3d12)
_____________________________________________________________
Spell-like Abilities (Caster level 30th, concentration +41)
Constant - detect chaos, detect evil
At will - greater teleport, planeshift
Spells Prepared (caster level 27th, concentration +38)
11th (1/day) - miracle (DC 32)
10th (1/day) - interplanetary teleport
9th (1/day) - storm of vengeance (DC 30)
8th (1/day) - dimensional lock
7th (2/day) - control weather, greater restoration
6th (2/day) - heal (DC 27), joyful rapture
5th (2/day) - breath of life, righteous might
4th (5/day) - communal protection from energy x2, debilitating portent, divine power x2,
3rd (6/day) – bestow curse (DC 24) x2, blindness/deafness (DC 24), communal resist energy, create food and water x2
2nd (7/day) - augury, bestow weapon proficiency, calm emotions (DC 23), communal reinforce armaments, compassionate ally (DC 23), consecrate, spear of purity (DC 23)
1st (7/day) - moment of greatness x5, sanctuary (DC 22) x2
_____________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 32, Dex 23, Con 31, Int 23, Wis 27, Cha 33
SQ armor training 10, divinity, weapon training (heavy blades, close, hammers, spears) 10
Feats Blinding Critical, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Crippling Critical, Critical Focus, Critical Mastery, Deafening Critical, Disarming Strike, Dual Path, Exhausting Critical, Greater Disarm, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Vital Strike, Greater Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Greater Weapon Specialization (heavy blades), Improved Critical (heavy blades), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Vital Strike, Missile Shield, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Ride-by Attack, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Spirited Charge, Staggering Critical, Stunning Assault, Tiring Critical, Two Weapon Fighting, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Weapon Specialization (heavy blades)
Mythic Feats Mythic Critical Focus, Mythic Critical Mastery, Mythic Improved Critical (heavy blades), Mythic Improved Initiative, Mythic Missile Shield, Mythic Mounted Combat, Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Vital Strike, Mythic Shield Focus, Mythic Weapon Focus (heavy blades), Mythic Weapon Specialization (heavy blades)
Skills Athletics +40, Diplomacy +54, Handle Animal +40, Heal +36, Intimidate +40, Knowledge (history) +49, Knowledge (nobility) +49, Knowledge (religion) +49, Knowledge (planes) +35, Perception +51, Profession (soldier) +51, Ride +35, Sense Motive +51, Spellcraft +34
Possessions +6 cold iron ghost touch sacred avenger, +6 ghost touch adamantine impervious full plate of heavy fortification, +6 adamantine impervious bastion of the inheritor
_____________________________________________________________
Alter Reality (Su) As a full round action, Iomedae can alter reality by spending a use of mythic power. This is similar to a wish or miracle, except that it can duplicate 9th level spell effects or lower from any class. Iomedae can only use this ability to produce effects in line with her portfolio. Within her realm, this is a standard action, and the restrictions on what constitutes an effect in line with her portfolio are relaxed within reason.
Divine Blast Iomedae's divine blast deals 42d12 damage.
Divine Champion/Guardian Iomedae can reroll misses against non-divine foes, though she must take the result of the reroll. When Iomedae rolls a natural 20 on an attack roll, she regains a use of mythic power. Iomedae takes half damage from non-divine sources. A critical hit restores one use of her mythic power. Iomedae is considered a tier 20 champion for the purpose of her hit points and any tier based abilities she activates.
Iomedae can move up to her speed and still make a full attack. She can use a full attack action to strike every single creature within reach. She can expend a use of mythic power to make a touch attack against spell effects, whether on a creature or not. If successful, they are affected by greater dispel magic (Caster level 40th) She can combine this with an actual melee attack, but must hit the regular AC instead.
A confirmed critical hit against Iomedae provokes an attack of opportunity that can be used to perform a combat maneuver. She can expend a use of mythic power to increase her or an adjacent ally's AC by 20. The foe must roll twice and take the lower result. After the attack is resolved, Iomedae or the defended ally can make an attack against the creature.
Iomedae can take half of any damage suffered by an adjacent ally as an immediate action. As an immediate action, when an ally within 30 ft. is targeted by a ranged attack, she can have the attack target her instead, or spend a use of mythic power to do so as a free action. Once per round when she would be struck by an attack, she can interpose her shield, giving it the broken condition. She still suffers any damage beyond that required to destroy her shield. Her shield has hardness 68 and 267 hp. If she expends a mythic point, the shield does not suffer the damage, though damage beyond that which would destroy her shield is still taken by her.
Iomedae does not provoke attacks of opportunity caused by movement from Huge or larger creatures, and she can share her space with those creatures. When sharing a space with a larger creature, she gains cover against all of its attacks, and it is considered flat footed against her attacks.
Iomedae does not fall unconscious under 0 hit points. Instead, she is staggered until reaching -92 hp, at which point she dies.
Iomedae can expend a use of mythic power to increase her speed by 200 ft. for an hour. Iomedae does not suffer the armor check penalty or maximum Dexterity bonus for any type of armor.
Divine Fighter Iomedae is immune to fear. Her armor and weapon training values are 10. This applies to all of her weapon groups. She gains DR 20/- in armor, and applies her weapon mastery to all of her trained weapon groups.
Divine Initiative Iomedae acts on her initiative, and at her initiative -5 and her initiative -10.
Divine Paladin Iomedae can smite evil and lay on hands at will. When smiting evil, each attack also carries the power of holy word. (Caster level 30th) Her lay on hands is considered to possess all mercy abilities. All allies within her divine aura are immune to fear, charm and compulsion, and can smite evil as though they were paladins of their level. All attacks made against creatures within the aura are considered good aligned. Non-mythic creatures and non-mythic magic items whose attacks are normally considered evil aligned do not count as evil within the aura.
Divine Saves Against non-divine threats, Iomedae rolls 2d20 and takes the best on all saves.
Divine Spellcasting Iomedae gains additional spell slots based off of her Charisma score. She can fill spell slots with cleric spells. She casts paladin spells and her domain spells spontaneously. Divine spells cast by Iomedae have no max cap, they are only limited by her caster level.
Divine Shield Iomedae's divine shield can withstand 300 points of damage before falling.
Immortality If slain by a non-divine opponent, Iomedae returns to life in her realm immediately. If slain by a divine opponent (or by a non-divine opponent twice in the same day), she returns to life within 24 hours. Only special circumstances can arrange her true death.
LG Colossal dragon (air, good, lawful)
Domains Air, Good, Law, Nobility, Protection, Scalykind
Init +38; Senses blindsense 600 ft., darkvision, divine senses, improved low-light; Perception +58
Aura frightful presence (4500 ft., DC 42)
Languages Aquan, Auran, Avian, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Halfling, Ignan, Terran
_____________________________________________________________
AC 78, touch 20, flat-footed 74, combat 94
(+14 deflection, +4 Dex, +58 natural, –8 size)
hp 1512 (36d12 + 1080); DR 40/epic and evil
Immune cold, electricity, fear, paralysis, sleep; SR 49
Defenses immortality, mythic guardian, unstoppable
Fort +42, Ref +31, Will +43; Iron Will
_____________________________________________________________
Speed 180 ft., fly 750 ft. (average), swim 180 ft.
Melee bite +59 (8d6 + 42 /19–20/x3 and cripple (DC 46)) and
2 claws +59 (4d8 + 31 /19–20 and cripple (DC 46)) and
2 wings +57 (4d6 + 20 /19– 20 and cripple (DC 46)) and
tail +57 (4d8 + 42 /19–20 and cripple (DC 46))
Melee Mythic vital bite +59 (32d6 + 168 /19-20/x3 and cripple (DC 46))
Melee Mythic power vital bite +49 (32d6 + 348 /19-20/x3 and cripple (DC 46))
Melee Sweeping mythic power bite +49 (8d6 + 87 /19-20/x3 and cripple (DC 46))
Space 30 ft.; Reach 60 ft.
Base Atk +36; Combat +66
Attack Options crippling critical (DC 46), mythic power attack (-10, +30), mythic vital strike, stunning assault (DC 46)
Special Actions alter reality, breath weapon (280-ft. cone, DC 43, 30d10 cold and disintegrate), crush (DC 43, 8d6 + 42), mythic (15/day, 2d12), tail sweep (DC 43, 4d6 + 42)
_____________________________________________________________
Spell-Like Abilities (Caster level 36th, Concentration +50)
Constant - greater magic fang
At will - chain lightning (DC 30), control winds, dictum (DC 31), geas/quest (DC 30), greater teleport, hold monster (DC 30), holy word (DC 31), plane shift, repulsion (DC 31), shield other
3/day - greater create demiplane, holy aura (DC 32), shield of law (DC 32), storm of vengeance (DC 33), whirlwind (DC 32), winds of vengeance (DC 33)
Spells Known (Caster level 40th, Concentration +54)
(WIP)
12th (2/day)
11th (2/day)
10th (3/day)
9th (8/day) - mass heal, meteor swarm (DC 33), miracle
8th (8/day) - polar ray, polymorph any object (DC 32), power word stun
7th (8/day) - control weather, greater restoration, resurrection
6th (9/day) - greater dispel magic, heal, heroes' feast
5th (9/day) - baleful polymorph (DC 29), breath of life, feeblemind (DC 29), true seeing
4th (9/day) - divine power, restoration, spell immunity, stoneskin
3rd (9/day) - create food and water, dispel magic, fireball, haste, major image
2nd (10/day) - aid, calm emotions (DC 26), lesser restoration, resist energy, silence
1st (10/day) - alarm, divine favor, mage armor, magic missile, shield
0 (at will) - detect magic, guidance, light, mage hand, mending, prestidigitation, spark, stabilize
_____________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 55, Dex 18, Con 41, Int 38, Wis 39, Cha 38
SQ augmented criticals, change shape, divinity, mythic
Feats Ability Focus (breath weapon), Combat Reflexes, Crippling Critical, Critical Focus, Dazing Spell, Extend Spell, Greater Vital Strike, Heighten Spell, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Lingering Spell, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Snatch, Stunning Assault, Vital Strike, Widen Spell, Wingover
Mythic Feats Mythic Combat Reflexes, Mythic Iron Will, Mythic Improved Initiative, Mythic Power Attack, Mythic Vital Strike
Skillls Acrobatics +30, Appraise +58, Athletics +48 (+56 swim), Bluff +58, Diplomacy +58, Disguise +58, Fly +48, Handle Animal +58, Heal +58, Intimidate +58, Knowledge (arcana) +58, Knowledge (geography) +58, Knowledge (history) +58, Knowledge (local) +58, Knowledge (nature) +58, Knowledge (nobility) +58, Knowledge (planes) +58, Knowledge (religion) +58, Perception +58, Sense Motive +58, Spellcraft +58
Treasure Lots
_____________________________________________________________
Alter Reality (Su) As a full round action, Bahamut can alter reality by spending a use of mythic power. This is similar to a wish or miracle, except that it can duplicate 9th level spell effects or lower from any class. Bahamut can only use this ability to produce effects in line with his portfolio. Within his realm, this is a standard action, and the restrictions on what constitutes an effect in line with his portfolio are relaxed within reason.
Breath Weapon Those who fail a Fortitude save (DC 45) against Bahamut's breath weapon take 90d6 disintegration damage and 1d6 Constitution damage. A successful save reduces this to 5d8 damage and 1 Constitution damage. Bahamut can choose whether or not to use his disintegration power with his breath weapon.
Divine Initiative Bahamut acts on his initiative, and at his initiative -5.
Divine Saves Against non-divine threats, Bahamut rolls 2d20 and takes the best on all saves.
Divine Shield Bahamut's divine shield absorbs up to 360 points of damage before falling.
Divine Spellcasting Bahamut gains additional spell slots above his maximum based off of his Charisma score. His spellbooks contain nearly every cleric, paladin and wizard spell in the multiverse. He has no cap when casting spells off divine spell lists, limited only by his caster level.
Immortality If slain by a non-divine opponent, Bahamut returns to life in his realm immediately. If slain by a divine opponent (or by a non-divine opponent twice in the same day), he returns to life within 24 hours. Only special circumstances can arrange his true death.
Mythic Archmage The DC to identify Bahamut's spells, recognize them as they are being cast, or dispel them is increased by 15.
He can expend a use of mythic power to utilize any particular metamagic he knows freely for 10 rounds. He can expend a use of mythic power to increase the damage of his spells by 50%, double the duration, increase the DC by 4 and ignore spell resistance on a single spell. Non-mythic targets have to roll twice and take the lowest on any saves against his spells. If his spell resistance protects him from a spell, he regains a use of mythic power.
Mythic Champion Bahamut can move up to his speed and still make a full attack. He can use a full attack action to strike every single creature within reach. He expend a use of mythic power to make a touch attack against spell effects, whether on a creature or not. If successful, they are affected by greater dispel magic (Caster level 30th.) He can combine this with an actual melee attack, but must hit the regular AC instead.
Mythic Guardian Bahamut takes half damage from non-mythic creatures. A critical hit restores one use of his mythic power and provokes an attack of opportunity that can be used to perform a combat maneuver.
God-killer campaign; I ran one in 3.5 when the stats for the 3.5 Gods and Goddesses came out. I would like to see this come to completion, so I'd could run another one.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why do you WANT stats for deities?
Why do you want stats for orcs? To fight them, to see how they look compared to other races in the world, to have rules for playing one yourself, to get an idea of the powers such things bring to the table/battlefield, to have them give PCs a beatdown, to have them give PCs a morale boost, to look back and point to "That fight" and remember how you got away/got plastered/got a victory, etc.
No different at all, when it comes down to it.
I houseruled Living Demiplane. Feel free to add it to the deities.
Living Demiplane:
Requirement: Caster has an aura 50 feet or larger
While Living Demiplane is in effect, the caster is immune to all attacks that originate outside of the caster's aura. The spell can only be dispelled from inside the aura.That solves the "I can shoot arrows from halfway across the world" bit. It doesn't actually deprive the PC's of anything, but it means they have to be close enough to risk taking a shot to do it.
I don't know what living demiplane was before you houseruled it, but that seems pretty cool.
I'm not sure that I mind if a got can get shot by an arrow fired from halfway across the world, though I don't foresee anyone, even a god of archery, possessing that power?
Dot for interest.
My group has always lived by the idea of "If it has Stats we can kill it" So I've generally avoided stating out gods.
When I do however I turn to a really old book called Primal Order. It's a System Neutral rule-set that provides a Divine Power mechanic. A Divine Energy that Gods can use to do stuff depending on their rank. Then they provide an appendix that tells how the Primal Energy translates into rules for different game systems.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A good point, but not entirely true, Laz.
I statted them out for the same reason I do NPCs that the party isn't going to fight directly - to gauge their innate power, what they can do, and how. It gives me a handle on how the game-world runs, and how much I can assign as an "act of god(s)" because, in defining them, I also define for myself what I can and should do with the stories.
There is only once that the players actually fought a god that I'd statted out, and that was when they themselves were already gods.
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am of the opinion that the gods should have only one stat: you lose.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am of the opinion that the gods should have only one stat: you lose.
And while I can appreciate that idea, it is not one in any way in keeping with the traditions of the hobby, going back to its very first days (which featured a castle with a dozen demi-gods trapped beneath it). Those same demigods, I'd note, eventually became the Greyhawk Pantheon.
D&D (and yes, I get it, this is Pathfinder) has never really subscribed to unbeatable or infallible deities throughout its long history. Every single edition (and every setting I’ve looked at) is full of examples of mortals fighting gods and winning.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
At best, I didn't mind the old AD&D rules statting the avatar of a god, with the understanding that the avatar was just one projection of the god's influence made manifest. Pathfinder's closest approximations to this are the various Heralds, which I understand to be separate entities entirely--the Silver Surfers to the gods' Galacti.
At worst, you end up in the Time of Troubles silliness, and divinity becomes cheap and unappreciated. I mean, what self-respecting cleric would worship what is essentially a trumped-up outsider with delusions of grandeur?
If you want to stay gods that badly, though, go *really* old school--stat them as mere mortals with somewhat exaggerated heroic abilities, like the archetypal deities of various indigenous cultures.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Isn't killing deities pretty standard in storytelling? It's a climatic end to a lot of situations. People who want to play with gods in some sort of plot armor or just use them as plot devices, that's fine. But as someone who's grown up on deity slaying as a solid capstone to an adventure, I love seeing stats on gods.
Gods, when played equal to what their mental stats would say (except for ones with ranks in knowledge: metagame) are great final encounters, and a fine way to usher PCs into godhood in a setting that doesn't have any other way (Starstone), so I see no problem in giving deities hard and fast stats. Gods are creatures too. Way more powerful, but they still have to follow a basic set of laws just like mortals.
Even if a god can only be taken down by ONE weapon in all of existence, let that weapon exist, let the PCs have a chance. Maybe gods are just too powerful, even with stats, but the point is giving them a chance to accomplish this goal if they want it, not to complain "no one can touch gods!"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree, N.Jolly. To further what Peter has said, not only does DnD not really subscribe to the idea of unbeatable gods, but neither does most mythology.
Hey, all of you people who are thinking of posting something to the effect of "don't stat Gods", look down, right below the "preview", "cancel", "submit post" buttons.
Actually, I'm glad to debate and discuss the merits of statting gods vs non-statting gods with people. I don't think it is necessarily jerky to take up the position of 'gods = you lose'.
For the most part, even mythic entities cannot simply ignore the gods. However this page seems to suggest that immortality is overrated. Arazni - slain by a mythic lich (CR 26) and Ydersius - slain by a mythic champion (CR 22), suggest that even in Golarion, it is possible for entities with the power of the PCs to bring down gods.
Also, as a side note, if there are any Golarion deities you'd like to see (that don't seem like they would be a swashbuckler [or any other coming hybrid class], waiting on ACG to do my beloved Besmara and Cayden Cailean), feel free to suggest.
In addition to the divine subtype rules, I use between 25-40 gestalt class levels for most deities. Some, like Bahamut are made differently (he's 3 age categories beyond great wyrm in HD, just like he was in 3e) but the gestalt works best for our more human gods.
|
Hey, all of you people who are thinking of posting something to the effect of "don't stat Gods", look down, right below the "preview", "cancel", "submit post" buttons.
I asked WHY you want to stat gods. I didn't say you were a bad person for doing it.
---
Personally god-killing doesn't thrill me that much. But if you want to do such a thing, I think it's really quite arbitrary how powerful a god would be. CR 40? CR60? I can't come up with an argument why it should "naturally" be one or the other.
The gods should be as strong as you need them to be; just strong enough to be beatable if you intend them to be. If you wanted to end your campaign at level 12 with a fight against a god, maybe CR40 is a bit much. If you wanted to kill the gods after you plow through all the Kaiju, maybe CR40 is more appropriate...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally god-killing doesn't thrill me that much. But if you want to do such a thing, I think it's really quite arbitrary how powerful a god would be. CR 40? CR60? I can't come up with an argument why it should "naturally" be one or the other.
The gods should be as strong as you need them to be; just strong enough to be beatable if you intend them to be. If you wanted to end your campaign at level 12 with a fight against a god, maybe CR40 is a bit much. If you wanted to kill the gods after you plow through all the Kaiju, maybe CR40 is more appropriate...
While I don't suggest you can't kill gods at level 12 (my PCs killed their first 'god', a T-Rex worshipped on the Isle of Dread around level 9-10), I don't necessarily buy into the whole 'gods/demon lords/etc are just as strong (really weak) as you need them to be. Obviously, whatever works for your campaign works, but cohesively?
If that's the case, why aren't orcs, or giants or great wyrms? No one ever makes the argument that a balor should be as powerful as you need it, but I hear it about demon lords and dukes of Hell all the time, usually to justify placing them lower in CR than a pit fiend/balor.
I picked CR 40 for these gods because it seemed to be roughly where their abilities ended up at. Bahamut is a three age category beyond g.wyrm dragon. Hence, 30 die breath weapon, 30th level (mythic) disintegrate effect tied to it, etc. I think CR 40 seems like a decent spot to have powerful gods, without making them omnipotent.
Question: As a storyteller or player, are you more interested in:
A. Triumphing over the gods
B. The aftermath; the chaos of falling temples, crumbling civilisation, etc.
C. Both
?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
C. as both (though as a player I lean slightly toward A and as a GM as lean slightly toward B; these leanings are slight, however, and both are important in different ways.)
As a lower-powered example, using an idea by Ashiel, I'm running a world where mythic solars (and similarly high-CR creatures) are the most powerful gods possible. The world itself is, effectively, a use of a (slightly modified) Create Greater Demiplane that has (over the weight of the Creative divine forces) ascended from a demiplane to an entire plane. Is the world old or new? (Both. But it er'rs on the side of "newness" compared to how it seems, because it was originally established as a "livable" place, requiring a certain amount of age.) Is the world infinite or finite? (Finite bordering on effectively infinite. While theoretically finite, the enormous nature plus the bounded nature means that you can travel "forward" and never stop, while the fact that it's eternally growing at [(1ft/year * <unknown number * gods utilizing the Create Plane effect+number of times it's being utilized currently>) + (<large number of 10 ft. cubes> * <number of times it's used by the eternal "creation engines" even currently>)] means that the size is beyond comprehension or belief and that it's eternally growing. And so on.
EDIT 2: spoiler tags plus a period and a short sentence wrapping up the thought as a whole.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You can't kill anything without GM fiat.
The only question is where to draw the line on "things that can be defeated". Some choose to put the line below gods, some above them.
Saves seem kinda low. Granted I didn't read the whole entry so maybe they have a way to boost them.
I didn't see it referenced yet, but have you looked at the Divine Rules from the 3.5 SRD? These make for some pretty nasty stats.
I didn't see it referenced yet, but have you looked at the Divine Rules from the 3.5 SRD? These make for some pretty nasty stats.
Yeah, we worked with the divine rules from 3.5 for years, revised them several times, and ultimately decided that they weren't really to our liking. While Kain and I arrived at slightly different conclusions as to the best way to mechanically represent divinity, I'd say both are significantly better than the 3.5 god rules - and are far more in keeping with the traditions of the game.
The biggest problem with the 3.0/3.5 divine rules is that they generate excessively large numbers. The second is that they produce comical SDAs which end fights before they begin (e.g. you die, no save, no SR) or do virtually nothing. The third is that they tend to turn every fight into nothing but a slug vest, given the huge array of complete immunities they provide. We also found them quite cumbersome to work with in general - and probably all but unmanageable in play.
What's the point of stats where you can't kill those things without GM fiat anyway?
At a certain point, you need DM fiat for anything. If you want to walk to the next town, even if the DM doesn't outright deny you, they could easily make you play through 30 miles of walking. If you want to kill Meepo the kobold, he can have Meepo pop up at max ranged weapon range, fire a single arrow (natural 20 of course, possibly a called shot) and run away. Gets out of sight, you can't find him. Until the next time he pops up to hit you.
So if you can trust your DM to allow you to get to the next town or kill a kobold, it's just a small step from there to trust them to allow you to complete whatever quest you need. I'm not sure if the fiat you see in this statblock is from 'special circumstances' (though that could be as simple as 'It's Ragnarok/All Hallow's Eve/Titanomachy and gods can die) or if it is in the high CR, requiring at least some level of advancement past the level 20/mythic 10 that the game allows, but either way it shouldn't be that insurmountable of an obstacle.
|
|
I agree that it's good to have reasons why the gods don't interfere with mortal troubles and just solve all the problems. It seems that people have been trying to figure out those reasons throughout known history and have come up with a lot of different explanations, mostly boiling down to "they can't, because of ..." or "they won't, because of ...". Personally I prefer "they won't" style explanations; you appear to prefer "they can't" style explanations. Fine.
---
I do think the CR of gods is a bit more arbitrary than that of critters already published in a Bestiary. If you make CR 1 red dragons, you're taking an existing monster and radically refurbishing it. If you make a CR 12 god in an Epic 6 campaign, that's different, because no stats for gods were previously known. Not that there's anything wrong with either of those things.
---
You seem to have put some thought into why gods should be CR40 based on the abilities they have. My viewpoint however is that it would be better to first figure out what I'm going to use the gods for, and then to figure out how powerful they need to be for that. So that's also why I wanted to know why you want god stats.
Hey, Ascalaphus - check out my world-in-development "Curse of the Godless" for an E6 world with low CR (7/15/20 or a little above those,depending). :)
I agree that it's good to have reasons why the gods don't interfere with mortal troubles and just solve all the problems. It seems that people have been trying to figure out those reasons throughout known history and have come up with a lot of different explanations, mostly boiling down to "they can't, because of ..." or "they won't, because of ...". Personally I prefer "they won't" style explanations; you appear to prefer "they can't" style explanations. Fine.
Like the others, I tend to prefer a combination of the two concepts. The gods can't do everything, but the reason they aren't doing the one thing you (the PC) want them to do is probably because they won't.
I do think the CR of gods is a bit more arbitrary than that of critters already published in a Bestiary. If you make CR 1 red dragons, you're taking an existing monster and radically refurbishing it. If you make a CR 12 god in an Epic 6 campaign, that's different, because no stats for gods were previously known. Not that there's anything wrong with either of those things.
I was actually taking your smaller argument regarding gods specifically, and applying it to the larger universe in which I've heard similar arguments, chiefly directed at archdevils and demon lords. However, there have been some notable incidents of other cases. In Champions of Ruin, Kezef the Chaos Hound, chaser of gods across the planes, clocked in at a CR 21, "in order to allow PCs to fight him rather than just waste those stats." However, the same argument didn't seem to apply to the CR 36 lich. In Northlands by Kobold Press, the same argument was applied to the avatar of a god (was CR 16-18 or so), but not to the jotun (CR 22). It has always just felt very selective to me, but I recognize you weren't taking a different side. Just felt it represented a good opportunity to pontificate on the matter.
You seem to have put some thought into why gods should be CR40 based on the abilities they have. My viewpoint however is that it would be better to first figure out what I'm going to use the gods for, and then to figure out how powerful they need to be for that. So that's also why I wanted to know why you want god stats.
I like using aspects to deal with any CR 10-20 encounters I do with gods or demon lords and such. Avatars would be the more common deity interaction in the epic levels. Contrary to my stat building of the gods, I don't actually foresee tons of deicide in my campaign's future.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Female water spirit swashbuckler 20//rogue 20
CN Medium Outsider (Divine, Water)
Init +54 (+60 on a ship); Senses darkvision, low-light; Perception +57
Aura beguiling aura (100 ft., DC 39, fascinated)
Languages Abyssal, Aquan, Celestial, Common, Elven, Infernal, Sylvan
_____________________________________________________________
AC 64, touch 47, flat-footed 57, combat 78
(+7 armor, +13 deflection, +17 Dex, +7 dodge, +10 natural)
hp 1131 (32d10 + 436 + 375); DR 20/cold iron and epic
Immune cold, electricity, poison
Resist ability 5, energy drain 5; SR 41
Defense charmed life (7/day, +13), improved uncanny dodge, transparency, unstoppable
Fort +23, Ref +31, Will +26 (+6 on a ship); evasion
_____________________________________________________________
Speed 60 ft., swim 120 ft.
Melee Cutlass +58/+53/+48/+43 (1d6 + 34 plus 20 precision* /15-20/x3 and stagger DC 42)
Ranged Water spray +49 touch (10d6 cold and poison)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +32; Combat +49 (+53 dirty trick, steal, trip)
Atk Options combat expertise (-9, +11), greater dirty trick, greater feint, greater steal, greater trip
Special Actions drowning kiss, master strike (DC 26), mythic (28/day, 2d12), sneak attack +10d6 (10 bleed), spring attack
_____________________________________________________________
Deeds (Panache 10/day)
Offense - bleeding wound, deadly stab, menacing swordplay*, parry and riposte, perfect thrust*, precise strike*, stunning stab (2), superior feint*, targeted strike
Defense - cheat death (all), dizzying defense, evasive, kip-up*, swashbuckler's grace
Misc - derring-do, swashbuckler's edge. swashbuckler initiative
*Requires 1 point of panache remaining, does not expend panache
Rogue Talents (Rogue level 20th)
Constant - dexterous, fearsome reputation, risk taker
At will - bleeding strike, sneak attack of opportunity
6/day - another day, defensive roll, infuriating combatant, redirect attack, rogue's luck (+10)
Spell-Like Abilities (Caster level 32nd, Concentration +42)
At will - control water, control weather, suggestion (DC 23), summon (level 9, any CR 20 or lower aquatic magical beast)
3/day - storm of vengeance (DC 29), whirlwind (DC 28)
_____________________________________________________________
SQ change shape, seafaring, shipmanship +6, swashbuckler weapon training +4
Abilities Str 25, Dex 45, Con 36, Int 27, Wis 35, Cha 37 +1 to two (x5), +2, +3, +1, +1, +1, +3
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Deceitful, Dodge, Greater Called Shot, Greater Dirty Trick, Greater Feint, Greater Steal, Greater Trip, Improved Called Shot, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Steal, Improved Trip, Mobility, Quick Draw, Skill Focus (Bluff), Spring Attack, Staggering Critical
Mythic Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative,
Skills Acrobatics +62, Appraise +33, Athletics +52 (+60 swim), Bluff +68, Diplomacy +46, Escape Artist +52, Intimidate +68, Knowledge (geography) +41, Knowledge (history) +50, Knowledge (local) +53, Knowledge (nature) +41, Perception +57, Perform (sing) +41, Perform (string) +41, Profession (sailor) +65, Sense Motive +57, Sleight of Hand +58, Stealth +62
Treasure +5 leather armor, +5 dueling cutlass of quenching
_____________________________________________________________
Alter Reality (Su) As a full round action, Besmara can alter reality by spending a use of mythic power. This is similar to a wish or miracle, except that it can duplicate 9th level spell effects or lower from any class. She can only use this ability to produce effects in line with her portfolio. Within her realm, this is a standard action, and the restrictions on what constitutes an effect in line with her portfolio are relaxed within reason.
Beguiling Aura (Su) Any creature within 30 feet of Besmara that fails a DC 36 Will save is immediately fascinated. This is a mind-affecting compulsion effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Divinity Besmara's divine blast deals 42d12 damage. Her divine shield can withstand 320 points of damage. Besmara acts on her initiative and her initiative -5. Besmara is considered a tier 15 trickster for the purpose of her hit points and any tier based abilities she activates.
Against non-divine threats, Besmara rolls 2d20 and takes the best on all saves. She does not fail on a natural 1. Within 5 miles, Besmara takes no distance penalty on any skill checks. In addition, any distance based penalties are at -1 per 5 miles, not per 10 ft. If slain by a non-divine opponent, Besmara returns to life in her realm immediately. If slain by a divine opponent (or by a non-divine opponent twice in the same day), she returns to life within 24 hours. Only special circumstances can arrange the true death of her.
Drowning Kiss (Su) Besmara can flood the lungs of a willing, helpless, or fascinated creature by touching it (traditionally by kissing the creature on the lips). If the target cannot breathe water, it cannot hold its breath and immediately begins to drown. On its turn, the target can attempt a DC 38 Fortitude save to cough up this water; otherwise it falls unconscious at 0 hp. On the next round, the target must save again or drop to -1 hit points and be dying; on the third round it must save again or die. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Mythic Trickster Besmara treats all non-mythic foes as being flat footed. When she rolls a natural 20 on an opposed skill check against a mythic foe, she regains one use of mythic power. Besmara can spend a point of mythic power to treat a foe as flat footed, with a +15 bonus on the attack. Besmara doubles any precision damage on a critical hit. She does not take an armor check penalty, suffer spell failure or maximum Dexterity from light armor.
Besmara can use Bluff in place of a CMB check on all adjacent foes, to apply bull rush, drag, or reposition.
As a swift action, Besmara can expend one use of mythic power to gain a +4 dodge bonus to her AC for 1 round. During this time, whenever a creature misses on a melee attack against her, it provokes an attack of opportunity from her. She can choose to either take the attack of opportunity or force that creature to reroll the attack and change the target to an adjacent creature of her choice within the attacker's reach. This reroll uses the same modifiers as the initial attack roll.
When hit by a melee or ranged attack, Besmara can expend one use of mythic power as an immediate action to replace herself with an illusory duplicate and teleport to any open square within 30 feet of her current position. The attack does not harm her, instead destroying the duplicate.
When Besmara moves, she can travel across vertical surfaces, can move at full speed across any narrow or uneven surface, and can run across fragile surfaces that can't hold her weight (including liquids) without peril. She leaves no tracks (as pass without trace), and ignores adverse effects from nonmagical difficult terrain and ground hazards, including caltrops. As an immediate action, she can expend one use of mythic power to balance on razor edges and pinpoints, allowing her to ignore damage from spiked pit traps and similar hazards for up to fifteen rounds.
Poison (Ex) Contact, Fort DC 38, 1/round (10), 1d4 Con plus blindness, cure 3 consecutive saves.
Transparency (Su) When underwater, Besmara's body becomes transparent, effectively rendering her invisible. She can become visible or transparent at will as a free action.
Most of that subtype seems quite tame compared to the 3.5 god abilities. And why in the name of all that's holy is Iomedae higher CR than freaking Bahamut? Someone done goofed at that one.
She might be higher CR but his stats imply being able to kick her ass all the same.
Do PCs use Gestalt rules in your campaigns? If not what was iomedae's build before her ascendancy?
Why do you WANT stats for deities?
There is a freakin book in 3.0e and in 2e D&D, why the hell not in PF? it is cool to kill deities geez, is there any more reasons?
Or the gods are almost omnipotent in their realm and this is the less powerful form.
@lazarx: u r a boring GM :}
IMO gods are class features and plot devices.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ultimately what are the purpose of stats? To adjudicate die rolling confrontations between player avatars and npc/monster avatars. Unless you're going to have die rolling confrontations with the gods, there's no point for stats.
Which has nothing to do with my point that believing you can kill something just because it has stats is faulty logic.
What's the point of stats where you can't kill those things without GM fiat anyway?At a certain point, you need DM fiat for anything. If you want to walk to the next town, even if the DM doesn't outright deny you, they could easily make you play through 30 miles of walking. If you want to kill Meepo the kobold, he can have Meepo pop up at max ranged weapon range, fire a single arrow (natural 20 of course, possibly a called shot) and run away. Gets out of sight, you can't find him. Until the next time he pops up to hit you.
So if you can trust your DM to allow you to get to the next town or kill a kobold, it's just a small step from there to trust them to allow you to complete whatever quest you need. I'm not sure if the fiat you see in this statblock is from 'special circumstances' (though that could be as simple as 'It's Ragnarok/All Hallow's Eve/Titanomachy and gods can die) or if it is in the high CR, requiring at least some level of advancement past the level 20/mythic 10 that the game allows, but either way it shouldn't be that insurmountable of an obstacle.
So......Everything a GM does is a "GM fiat?" The GM's job is to fiat you along through their story/game? The GM allowing you to play your character is fiat? Under the Strictest definition, this might fall under "GM fiat," but no one ever uses it that way.
I think what Gorbacz is getting at here is that despite the fact that the deities have stats, they still CAN'T be killed by PC's unless the GM makes an addition or change to the rules, a fiat if you will, to allow the PC's to do so. And anyhow, if you look at those stats, they're basically designed to say "Can do most anything at all super easily" just like an unstatted deity would.
Most of that subtype seems quite tame compared to the 3.5 god abilities. And why in the name of all that's holy is Iomedae higher CR than freaking Bahamut? Someone done goofed at that one.
Bahamut's CR in 3.0 was...25, I believe. And when he was statted in the DDg, he was a lesser god.
In contrast, Iomedae was accused of turning all of Heaven into her realm, she is gaining so much power. Clearly an intermediate or greater deity, in those terms.
That said...I think both Iomedae and Bahamut are too weak for where I want them to be. My build of Iblis seems to suggest they are impotent before the Champion of Heaven, and that's a little too far below what they ought to be.
As for the subtype, I wanted it to be more streamlined and easier to run than the monstrous amount of special abilities afforded to 3.0 deities.
Do PCs use Gestalt rules in your campaigns? If not what was iomedae's build before her ascendancy?
Not many PCs do, but I think you mean do NPCs use Gestalt rules in my camapaigns. And the answer is 'not often'. Typically reserved for gods only. I would have pegged mortal Iomedae as a paladin/fighter 20 // champion/guardian 10 (with dual path)
I think of it this way. Are the PC's going to have DIRECT interaction with the gods? Not through heralds, avatars, Direct interactions? If the answer is no... (which it generally will be in almost every campaign I run} then there is no reason for me to go through that kind of stat work.
Couldn't agree more. DMs are busy, they need to focus their efforts where they are needed. My PCs have had and will have more direct interaction with the gods.
Ultimately what are the purpose of stats? To adjudicate die rolling confrontations between player avatars and npc/monster avatars. Unless you're going to have die rolling confrontations with the gods, there's no point for stats.
Couldn't agree less. Stats demonstrate comparative power, and provide an image of a being in a particular format. While the intention is that you use that format to adjudicate dice rolling confrontations, it is not the only use for them. A statblock is a picture, that can be viewed by those who understand what they are looking at. (Similar to how that guy was reading the lines of code in the Matrix.) In that way, stats can be artwork, even if they are never used for a game. I've made d20 stats for Disney Princesses, DC superheroes, and the Terminator. Not all of that will be used in my games. Some of it is just for my enjoyment in creation.
So......Everything a GM does is a "GM fiat?"
Much of it, yes. When a GM rolls the orc's attack bonus, that's not fiat, that's covered by the rules. But the fact that the orc showed up at all? Fiat. The orc's name? Fiat. The orc's personality? Fiat. Its hopes and dreams? Fiat. The fact that you had a place to get the magic armor you are using against the orc's attack? Fiat. You are right, no one ever uses it that way...they use it when they feel the GM has crossed the line and is using fiat when they should use rules, or when they don't like the GM's fiat. Allowing you to play is not fiat though, because that happens outside of the game itself.
I think what Gorbacz is getting at here is that despite the fact that the deities have stats, they still CAN'T be killed by PC's unless the GM makes an addition or change to the rules, a fiat if you will, to allow the PC's to do so. And anyhow, if you look at those stats, they're basically designed to say "Can do most anything at all super easily" just like an unstatted deity would.
Well, no, they aren't basically designed to say that. For instance, Iomedae is designed to demonstrate what a mighty warrior of Heaven ought to be capable of. She should be able to fight with the most powerful fallen angel (a fallen solar fighter 20/MR 10) and perhaps survive the day. She should be able to heal thousands on a battlefield. She should be inspiring. She shouldn't be great at lying.
But I understand your perspective. Afterall, some people don't bother statting out barkeeps either. Or guys in a crowd. Or even anyone you aren't going to fight. I get the thought process behind not bothering or wanting to stat out gods. I just happen to have a different one. It's remarkable though, that people with the 'don't bother' attitude always feel free to come in and flaunt their opinion as fact, but the 'let's bother' crowd doesn't tend to head out into threads that aren't about god statting and do the same. I like discussing the merits and disadvantages, myself. Some people take it too personal though.