So the party healer died and his next pg won't be a healer.
One player tought about creating a use-activated ring that basically grand unlimited cure light wounds and will only cost 2000.
My question is, does it cost 2000? or i have to multiply the price by 4 since the duration is even less than 1 round (is istantaneus).
As a side question if someone know some item that i can suggest to the group now that they are without a healer it would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any help
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Ring of Regeneration only heals 1 point per round, and costs 90,000.
I suspect a ring of cure light wounds with unlimited uses should cost more than 2,000. Much... much more.
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If I was to create a custom ring of cure light wounds, I'd use this:
Command Word - 1x1x1800. Charges per day 5 - price/5/5 = 1800g for a ring that casts cure light wounds 5 times a day.
As stated a ring of regeneration, which can heal 600 hit points an hour, costs 90,000 gp.
While it would require activating, a ring of at-will Cure Light Wounds could heal 1d8+1 so up to 9 hp per round, or 5400 hit points per hour. (an average of 3300 hp/hour)
I would say that by judgment of any DM would price it out of existence (or, at best, makes it an artefact).
However, if we were to calculate the cost for unlimited activations/day, we find on http://paizo.com/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html we find the note "If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges."
We also have "Command word: Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp" and "Divide [cost] by (5 divided by charges per day)"
So, we have spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 1800 gp / (5/100)
= 1 x 1 x 1800 * 20
= 36000 gp
... cheaper than the ring of regeneration, but does require activation.
Personally I wouldn't allow it at all with unlimited activations.
An x times a day ring or other would be ok though ...
= 1 x 1 x 1800 x 0.2 = 360 gp per use/day; 1080 for a 3/day CLW ring sounds good at low levels.
A wand of cure light wounds could be useful, it's 50 charges for 750 gold. But if none of the characters have invested in use magic device, or have cure light wounds on their spell list, then it could be hard to use.
2000 is quite cheap for such a ring. The ring can also be taken off when they don't need to healing, so it doesn't really take up a ring slot and really should be a no slot item, introducing the No Space Limitation cost (doubling the price). Or you'd need to put some limitation in place, for example that the ring only works when it's been worn for at least 24 hours.
You could also make it work along the lines of boots of teleportation, so X charges per day, which is what Remy also proposed. This way they won't have unlimited healing and they will still need to manage their resources. You could make the item upgradeable, so they can increase the charges/caster level/etc in the future.
If I'm not mistaken you'd then use the following to determine the price:
Command Word: Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp
Charges per day: Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)
No space limitation: Multiply entire cost by 2
Assuming cure light wounds at caster level 5, 10 charges per day, it would come out at: 9000*(5/10)*2 = 36.000
5 charges instead of 10 halves the cost to 18.000.
Caster level 1 instead of five brings the cost down further to 3600 with five charges and 7200 with ten charges.
Making it a ring instead of a no slot item halves these costs.
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If your GM allows it, there was an item from the old Magic Item Compendium, the Belt of Heling, which granted a number of charges each day for use to do some healing. It only cost 750 gp, had three charges, and did 2d8 per charge, spend an extra charge at the same time for another 1d8 healing. The charges replenished the next day.
1 charge = 2d8
2 charges = 3d8
3 charges = 4d8
when used all at once.
Using single charges was the best value, if you could afford the slower healing.
If I was making a custom item for a group with no healer I'd make it do something like heal 5HP per round as a full-round action (and up to 100 per day). It saves a lot of dice rolling and makes it easier to keep track of spell durations. "I'm down 48HP." "We spend ten rounds healing up."
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I would absolutely not allow that proposed ring of cure light wounds as described.
And there's always investment in the Heal skill.
Last time I ran a campaign without a primary (or secondary) healer, I just made sure that bad guys were well-supplied with healing potions, but rarely got to use them.
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I wouldn't introduce something like an unlimited ring of cure light wounds. I would explore more conventional options.
Cure Light Wounds Wands and UMD (or someone with CLW on their spell list, like a Ranger or Paladin).
If they've got the money, a Staff of Healing and UMD can be a useful item, especially since it gives you access to Lesser Restoration, Remove Blindness/Deafness, and Remove Disease.
Lots of Potions of Curing.
Over the years, our group has faced situations where there is no healer in the group, and we struggle along until 7th level when someone invests in Leadership to get a cohort who can heal. In our Kingmaker Campaign, I started as a Samaran Wizard with Cure Light Wounds, then when I hit 7th level, I took Leadership and got an Oracle Of Life. Even in campaigns where the GM doesn't normally allow Leadership, I've seen GMs make an exception so the group can get a healer.
In other cases, I've had GMs who give the party an NPC cleric. The main advantage to this is that you don't have to spend a feat to get Leadership. The main disadvantage is that the NPC tends to stay out of combat and doesn't contribute too much (most GMs give you more control over your Cohort, but this is a true NPC), and mostly just hangs with the group to heal between combats. There's still a chance something will happen to the NPC, so you need to make sure he's protected.
The PCs have to take some responsibility for their character choices. If everyone wants to run non-spellcasters, they have to accept that they're going to have problems in a high-fantasy, high-magic setting. I have this humorous vision of a bunch of 11th level fighters fleeing a trio of swarms because none of them can effectively damage the swarms. Keep in mind that you shouldn't go out of the way to scr*w the PCs, and it's ok to bend a bit in accommodating the issue, but the PCs do have to make some effort to deal with the problem.
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My question is, does it cost 2000?
As a side question if someone know some item that i can suggest to the group now that they are without a healer it would be much appreciated.
Of course it doesn't cost 2,000 gp. The person suggesting it costs 2,000 gp didn't read any of the crafting rules. Items are priced first by similar items, then by similar powered items, and failing those tests they are priced by the formulas and modified by their power.
There is no similar item to an item that casts CLW because it is a problem to make an item that does that (developers have said explicitly that fact.) So the closest similar item is the Ring of Regeneration. This can heal faster than the ring, so it should cost more.
Whole armies would like a CLW ring, it would command 100,000s if not more gp.
A suggestion is to buy CLW wands or healing kits and use "Treat Deadly Wounds" Heal skill.
This item would cost 5,760,000 gp.
Here's the math. Take ring and with a spell of cure light wounds which is an instantaneous spell duration. So the Spell Level x Caster level x 2000 for 1 level spell with caster level 1 is 2000 gp. Now this is an instantaneous spell with no duration. To make it unlimited as it is use activated spell you need 14400 charges per day. This would be by the time you used up all the charges you have another 14400 use the next day. Basically unlimited.
Now now for charges per day you take 5 divided by 14400 which gives you 3.4722222222222222e-4 and you take 2000 and divide it by that number. You end up with 5,760,000.
Now go with 5 charges per day and for 2000 gp. Much cheaper. 50 Charges for 20,000 gp.
I had a situation like this at the beginning of my group's AoW campaign.
I made an artifact for them that they acquired from a side quest I subbed in.
Essentially, it was a ring worn by a very powerful cleric. The cleric died in a grand battle against the BBEG of AoW. His essence was infused with the ring, and the ring essentially embodied his spirit.
It was a makeshift intelligent item, I gave it the ability to take class levels, and it took class levels as a cleric. It basically progressed as a cleric of their level. It only had as many cures/day and channels as a cleric of their level. I gave him an 18 Wis and 18 Cha. It never advanced past that, and he could only prepare cure spells.
This not only allowed me to provide healing to a group that had a very non-optimized healer, but allowed me to provide GM fiat in situations when it was necessary.
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So the party healer died and his next pg won't be a healer.
One player t[h]ought about creating a use-activated ring that basically grand unlimited cure light wounds and will only cost 2000.
My question is, does it cost 2000? or i have to multiply the price by 4 since the duration is even less than 1 round (is [instantaneous]).
As a side question if someone know some item that i can suggest to the group now that they are without a healer it would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any help[.]
First off,
NO! *rolls of news paper* NO!Instead encourage someone to take "Cure Light Wounds," Brew Potion, Spark of Creation, and make potions for 23 gp, 7 sp, and 5 cp each. This enables everyone to have access to healing all of the time and is not completely game breaking.
A wand of Cure Light Wounds is even more effective since each charge is 7 gp, 1 sp, 3 cp (356 gp, 2 sp, 5 cp to make with Spark of Creation.)
You can also make boots or whatever that have charges, but don't do unlimited or continuous.
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You shouldn't allow the item at all. Unlimited healing isn't in the game for a reason.
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Ring of Regeneration is a stupidly overpriced item that I've never heard of anyone buying or crafting. Its ability to bring you back to full hit points is its least useful property - anyone rich enough to afford one is unlikely to wait for ten minutes in order to get their hit points back in a potentially dangerous area if they have access to any other form of healing. (Things like 'cures bleed without requiring any action' are better.)
That makes it fairly worthless as a baseline comparison.
The only measure of a fair price is: is the decision to buy it non-obvious?
Suppose you're a low level group with no healer and I offer you an unlimited cure light wounds item for 10,000gp. Or, you could buy a hundred potions of cure light wounds for 5,000gp and save 5,000gp to spend on some other badly needed item. I don't think the answer here is 'spending 10,000gp is obviously better'. I'd say 2000gp is too cheap, and 10,000gp is too expensive.
This item would cost 5,760,000 gp.
Here's the math. Take ring and with a spell of cure light wounds which is an instantaneous spell duration. So the Spell Level x Caster level x 2000 for 1 level spell with caster level 1 is 2000 gp. Now this is an instantaneous spell with no duration. To make it unlimited as it is use activated spell you need 14400 charges per day. This would be by the time you used up all the charges you have another 14400 use the next day. Basically unlimited.
Now now for charges per day you take 5 divided by 14400 which gives you 3.4722222222222222e-4 and you take 2000 and divide it by that number. You end up with 5,760,000.
Now go with 5 charges per day and for 2000 gp. Much cheaper. 50 Charges for 20,000 gp.
Math is way off.
The base cost you listed at 2000 is UNLIMITED Charges... then you added charges per day. Using your logic a +1 sword (2000 gp cost) could be used 4 times every round should cost over 20 million.
With that said like ANY CUSTOM MAGIC ITEM should be subject to GM approval. A ring of Cure light is basically something that will be useful to a low levle party, IMHO itshould br priced accordingly.
It's only unlimited if you the spell has duration for 1 rnd or more. Cure light wounds is instantaneous. The only way you can do it is apply via charges per day.
As for the sword you are comparing oranges to apples. Weapons have different rules than rings. Even if it was a ring it would Greater Magic Weapon with duraction 1 hour per level at cost equal to CL x SL x 2000. If it was 1 rnd per level it 4 x that cost, 10 rnds per 2 x that cost and 24 hrs per level is 1/2 the cost. Instantaneous isn't possible to continuous. Think ring for continuous fireballs. You need to make it use activated and that required use to per day.
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Ok, I'll bite... what is the reason?
The game's whole design is each encounter of equal CR should use 25 % of your daily resources. Healing is considered a resource. If you have a way to not expend 25 % of your daily resources in an encounter, then you break the fundamental design of them game. This is also true for allowing your PC's to sleep in between encounters. Both allow them to use more than 25% of their daily resources in an encounter, which allows them to have safer encounters of much higher than their CR. Which breaks the system.
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A wand of cure light wounds doesn't use up any daily resources either.
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A wand of cure light wounds doesn't use up any daily resources either.
It does use up resources in general (namely money). Yeah, HP=GP sucks, but 'free infinite HP' is even worse.
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You shouldn't allow the item at all. Unlimited healing isn't in the game for a reason.Ok, I'll bite... what is the reason?
Because it eliminates the role of a healer and the scarcity of healthy that ultimately is what forces PCs to rest.
Let me put it this way: In 3.5 there was "cure minor wounds" which was a cleric orison that cured 1 hp. This was removed in Pathfinder because orisons and cantrips have unlimited uses now.Infinite healing was removed for a reason as it makes everything else less useful. Why would you EVER brew a potion of cure light wounds if you could just have a cleric/druid/oracle/inquisitor heal you up to full after combat anyway?
Considering that healing should be done out of combat anyway infinite healing makes all other forms of healing obsolete. Basically you move into modern game design where each encounter is not designed around depleting resources but instead to kill the party.
With infinite healing there is no reason to have anything lower than an epic encounter since the PCs are effectively invincible so long as they do not flat out die.
HP=GP sucks, but 'free infinite HP' is even worse.
But given the finite length of a normal campaign, a wand of infinite Cure Light Wounds isn't any better than twenty wands of CLW - I'm pretty sure those would never run out either. You're still paying an amount of money (significant at low level, minor at high level) to entirely eliminate the 'healing as daily resource' aspect of the game.
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In general 'at-will' items are priced equal to 5/day items (because you can use a 5/day item once in each fight). If you're going to be using an item much more than that per day, the pricing is probably wrong for the at-will version.
Spamming cure light wounds out of combat is supposed to be done with wands. If you're getting a much better deal than a wand of cure light wounds, the price is wrong.
At 2,000 gp, that's two and two-thirds wands. Will the character, in the course of owning this item, activate it more than 134 times?
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Yes, and eliminating 'healing as daily resource' is not a good thing, IMFAO.
As stated a ring of regeneration, which can heal 600 hit points an hour, costs 90,000 gp.
While it would require activating, a ring of at-will Cure Light Wounds could heal 1d8+1 so up to 9 hp per round, or 5400 hit points per hour. (an average of 3300 hp/hour)
90,000g is to 600 hit points per hour as cost of ring of infinite cure light wounds is to 3,300 hp per hour.
cross multiply
297 million = 600 x cost of ring of infinite cure light wounds
divide out the 600
495,000g = cost of ring of infinite cure light wounds
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In My Fantastically Awesome Opinion?
At 2,000 gp, that's two and two-thirds wands. Will the character, in the course of owning this item, activate it more than 134 times?
My last campaign went from level 1 to level 16. 'Cure light wounds' was used hundreds of times. 134 times is low in long running campaigns.
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not allowing your PC's to sleep, I imagine there are GM's who will force encoutners on PC's who decide to hole up
I see the ring of unlimited healing as just as beneficial to the GM
That should be every GM, those spells are used for the night rest periods not the "we had one encounter and we want to refresh early" deal. The GM (and certainly most every module) should put the PC's on a clock that is clear to them they don't have the time to rest or delay.
There is no case where a ring of infinite heal is ever beneficial to a GM. They would have to design every encounter as epic or higher difficulty (average party level + 4 or +6 CR etc) to just properly challenge a party that nova's their entire daily resources in one combat. Then this leads to PC deaths when you ride that razor edge.
But does not the prevalence of Cure Light wands already elimiate 'healing as a daily resource'?
This is fine and is a design point, because it shifts the problem from free heals to costing gold to heal (wands) which is perfectly within the design goals.
At 2,000 gp, that's two and two-thirds wands. Will the character, in the course of owning this item, activate it more than 134 times?My last campaign went from level 1 to level 16. 'Cure light wounds' was used hundreds of times. 134 times is low in long running campaigns.
I think he is saying 134 is too low. I've been in PFS games that I've used 4 wands by level 5. Using 134 charges is something that HAS happened in one PFS scenario for me. There is no ethical way a free healing item should be so cheap. It is wrong on so many levels.
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There is no case where a ring of infinite heal is ever beneficial to a GM. They would have to design every encounter as epic or higher difficulty (average party level + 4 or +6 CR etc) to just properly challenge a party that nova's their entire daily resources in one combat. Then this leads to PC deaths when you ride that razor edge.
I don't see how unlimited cure light wounds would lead to a party novaing their entire daily resources in one combat. (Unlike, say, playing Kingmaker.)
I could see it having the opposite effect. "Well, healing is free, so let's use minimal daily resources, let the fighter do the work and take the hits, and after the battle heal him up for free. That way we'll be able to hold on to our big spells for emergencies."
The contrarian point of view (which I subscribe to)says a ring of cure light wounds is not big deal.
It lets the party heal up after a fight, big deal. If you are in hte middle of a fight you have better things to do then be spending a standard action to do 1d8+1 healing to someone.
So basically the ring saves on downtime.
Ideally a party does 4 encounters on a "adventuring day". Realistically when a party gets low on HP they hole up. This would let them restore HP (though they will still want to hole up if low on spells). A ring such as this may increase the staying power of a party so they do 5 encounters a day instead of four.
So as far as I am concerned, it is not a big deal.
I keep hearing this, but the variance is so high that I wouldn't ever plan with that in mind. And many, many games simply do not allow the luxury of "holing up" in the middle of the drow city because we didn't think to bring some potions.
The unlimited healing ring would be a no-go at my table. I'd price it with charges instead, and it'd be strictly more expensive than a wand with the same number of charges on account of its lack of class limitation.
If I was to create a custom ring of cure light wounds, I'd use this:
Command Word - 1x1x1800. Charges per day 5 - price/5/5 = 1800g for a ring that casts cure light wounds 5 times a day.
This seems fair. Comes out to 27.5 hit points a day on average.
Either do rings with a 5 charges per day, or make potions as commonly available loot, or supply the party with wands of CLW.
The wand is really the best long term option for healing. If you have a bard/ranger/paladin/cleric/war priest/druid/inquisitor/oracle/witch/alchemist, any of them can automatically use a wand of CLW. You've got to have at least one of those in the party. And remember, for spontaneous caster it doesn't have to be on their list of spells known, it just has to be on their spell list to be able to use a wand without needing UMD.
In my opinion, the wand of CLW is what you should give the group. Let them buy more as necessary.
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IMO the ring of regeneration is priced as if it could still bring you back from the dead, which it no longer seems to be able to do. Back in the 1e/2e days this was an awesome item because it gave you practical immortality. I suppose one could read it as granting the regeneration 1 monster ability, but that is far from obvious in the description if that is meant to be the case.
Anyway I guess I'm saying that 90k seems hugely overpriced for what amounts to fast healing 1. That means I don't think comparing your proposed item to the ring is a good comparison.
I think an unlimited healing item is in general a bad idea because it changes some of the resource management of the game - unless there is time pressure, PCs will always be at full hp. Even with plentiful wands, I sometimes think "I'm at 97/100, no use wasting a charge." With unlimited healing I'd spend the extra round to top off.
If you're dead set on making such a thing, I think comparing to a wand of cure light wounds is the best comparison. The wand is 750, works 50 times, and requires spellcasting or UMD. Bump your item up to 1000gp per 50 shots to make it usable by anyone, make it a doohickey you use in your hand to make it wand-like in slot. Now to back-of-the-envelope estimate how much healing a party will use.
math behind spoiler
So a career party using only this item for all their healing probably uses it about 780 times getting to level 11 or so. That gives us an estimated price of 15600 gp - but a group can't afford that item at level 1. Backing off a bit as each level delay reduces the utility, I'd say about 8000 seems to be the sweet spot where it's not a "must-buy" item but also not so expensive as to be unusuable.
Remember once they have this they'll basically be using it for all their healing. No individual PC resources will be dedicated to hit points, which allows the party to focus much more on offense and can act as an unexpected force multiplier.
As a quick gut check to see if an item is game breaking or not I figure for an item that casts a spell with a standard activation, the price should be at least 3 and at most 10 times what a wand of that spell would cost. Spells that are common and would mostly be used in combat are about 3 times (since it is unlikely they will ever be used more than 150 times anyway, certainly not before the difference in price becomes trivial compared to a characters wealth).
For spells that are rare and/or would have extremely common usage outside of combat (cure light wounds is exactly the later category) it should be higher than 3, probably 5-8. 10 would be both, although I can't think of a great example right now.
One thing that would balance this item at its current price, is if it only worked on the wearer and required 24 hours or wearing before being active. This would work out to each player either being able to buy a ring, or buying three wands each. Yes, eventually the wands will end up being more expensive, but by the time a player has been cured 150 times, a wand of clw is probably pocket change.
1800g for a ring that casts cure light wounds 5 times a day.
I agree that something like this is a better idea.
An unlimited item that is your sole source of healing might be used a thousand times during your group's career, which suggests a price of 8000gp or more. A group without a healer is likely to die before they can afford one.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's true. A wand of cure light wounds for out-of-combat healing assumes someone in the party can actually cast it (even if that person is a Bard), or at least is investing in UMD ranks to get ever-more reliable.
If this item is being made because no one in the party has ANY healing spells, then the 'fair' price for that campaign goes up, rather a lot.
Might your players consider a wand of infernal healing or the like, that the wizard can use?
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One of the reasons it is generally a good idea to stick with either charges, or charges per day instead of unlimited use... is that it curtails abuse.
Having an item that can be used indefinitely, with unlimited uses, might not seem too OP in the context of a single party. But imagine how it could be used.
An NPC general would kill for one of these. Being able to bring up his entire army to full health after a major battle, even if it is only 1d8+1 hp every 6 seconds, would change the course of an entire war campaign. That is artifact level power right there. That is an average of 26,400 hp if used every round for 8 hours straight. If we assume a well trained standard soldier, 25hp or so average HP ea, you could full heal over 1000 soldiers from 0 to max in 8 hours.
That is a history-changing degree of power.
The party might find abusive schemes revolving this sort of object's usage, as well. Financial loopholes, like finding a place with many injured and charging a fairly cheap fee for healing, seeing as it is effectively free for them, they could make massive sums of gold in a short amount of time with little trouble or effort.
Anyway... it is simple and easy to avoid any abuse by simply giving the item a limit per day.
How many uses, and the cost, is entirely up to the GM. If his goal is to effectively replace a healer, then he could make several tiers of these rings, with increasing costs. Ring of cure moderate, rings of cure serious. etc. Set them to 5-10 uses per day to simulate the range of uses per day a caster would have, and price it just affordably, or even make them story rewards from certain interested parties.
But truly unlimited healing per day is something that is just begging to be abused, and throws off party checks and balances in the process. Keep it a charge based item.