Razmirian Priest of the society?


Pathfinder Society

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Ok, looking at a Sorcerer for The Accursed Halls this weekend, figured I'd have some fun with builds, and as far as I can tell, Wildblood and Razmirian priest don't conflict.

Now that said, can a Razmirian priest in PFS be a heretic? (i.e not worship the big R?) I've the idea of a half elf, who 'left the faith'.

Is such a thing legal?

Scarab Sages

Lore-wise, you can be some kind caster that is falsifying the claim of being a priest of Razamir. Of course, that would mean that you are a heretic that is being hunted down by actual priests...

They want their mask back.

Silver Crusade

In the lore of the class itself, it is merely someone trying to pass themselves off as a holy man. It could also be used for say, a priest of Aroden. Or some other dead or unknown god.

Shadow Lodge

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As far as Wildblooded and Razmirian Priest conflicting, it depends on which wildblooded you are using from what I can tell.

Mechanically, the Razmirian Priest has no requirements for you to buy-in to the Razmirian faith, as the flavor text of the archetype is not binding. If you want to play it as being an Ex-priest of Razmir, that is fine. You could even worship another divine figure if you like, possibly opening the possibility of a Razmirian Priest who later multiclasses into Evangelist o.O

Shadow Lodge

always glad to see another fellow priest of Razmir.....

just remember our great "leader" isnt a god...yet ....muhahahah

Shadow Lodge

Heck, so far as I can tell, you could even say, worship Cayden Cailean, but have a holy symbol of Asmodeus, and pretend to be a Priest of Asmodeus, in order to infiltrate Cheliax in order to free slaves.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I was actually thinking one 'hiding' in the society and following more of an Athiest PoV.

Could be even funnier with a brace of holy symbols. "What should we use to animate dead today? I've this holy symbol of Iomedae here..."

Grand Lodge

Matthew Morris wrote:
I was actually thinking one 'hiding' in the society and following more of an Athiest PoV.

One does not simply hide from our lord and savior Razmir, for he sees all. Also, considering that Razmir himself is a member of the Decemvirate, the society would be an interesting place to hide from him. You have been warned, he is keeping his eyes on you.

Shadow Lodge

Matthew Morris wrote:
"What should we use to animate dead today? I've this holy symbol of Iomedae here..."

I think you get bonus points if you use a holy symbol of Pharasma to animate dead.

Scarab Sages

And a holy symbol of Urgathoa to Remove Disease (alternative spell list, yay!)

Liberty's Edge

I have been thinking of making an Evangelist of Razimir. Sorc and then moving into Evangelist at 6.

Liberty's Edge

Sadly though, it cannot be done!

Shadow Lodge

Matthew Pittard wrote:
Sadly though, it cannot be done!

I do not see any reason why not. You wouldn't be worshipping Razmir sure but you can mix the archetype with evangelist.

Liberty's Edge

Razimir has no boons listed. I know the section does talk about creating some variants for the gods listed without evangelist boons but Id never be able to use such things in Society play.


Matthew Morris wrote:

I was actually thinking one 'hiding' in the society and following more of an Athiest PoV.

Sort of a Beau Geste type character? Got into some trouble and ran off to the Foreign Legion Patfinder Society? I like the idea.

The multiple holy symbols idea is hilarious, too!

Shadow Lodge

Matthew Pittard wrote:

Razimir has no boons listed. I know the section does talk about creating some variants for the gods listed without evangelist boons but Id never be able to use such things in Society play.

Right, but you can be a Razmirian Priest without worshipping Razmir. For example, you could make a Razmirian Priest/Evangelist of Nethys which would more or less be an arcane devotee to Nethys.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dylos wrote:
Matthew Pittard wrote:

Razimir has no boons listed. I know the section does talk about creating some variants for the gods listed without evangelist boons but Id never be able to use such things in Society play.

Right, but you can be a Razmirian Priest without worshipping Razmir. For example, you could make a Razmirian Priest/Evangelist of Nethys which would more or less be an arcane devotee to Nethys.

That is just so wrong in so many ways.

Shadow Lodge

LazarX wrote:
Dylos wrote:
Matthew Pittard wrote:

Razimir has no boons listed. I know the section does talk about creating some variants for the gods listed without evangelist boons but Id never be able to use such things in Society play.

Right, but you can be a Razmirian Priest without worshipping Razmir. For example, you could make a Razmirian Priest/Evangelist of Nethys which would more or less be an arcane devotee to Nethys.
That is just so wrong in so many ways.

Perhaps but it's legal.


Rinne, Priestess of Razmir wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
I was actually thinking one 'hiding' in the society and following more of an Athiest PoV.
One does not simply hide from our lord and savior Razmir, for he sees all. Also, considering that Razmir himself is a member of the Decemvirate, the society would be an interesting place to hide from him. You have been warned, he is keeping his eyes on you.

Why else send him to the Accursed Halls? Someone is hoping for an "accident".

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Dylos wrote:

As far as Wildblooded and Razmirian Priest conflicting, it depends on which wildblooded you are using from what I can tell.

Mechanically, the Razmirian Priest has no requirements for you to buy-in to the Razmirian faith, as the flavor text of the archetype is not binding. If you want to play it as being an Ex-priest of Razmir, that is fine. You could even worship another divine figure if you like, possibly opening the possibility of a Razmirian Priest who later multiclasses into Evangelist o.O

Dylos, I am aware that there is no listed requirement for the sorcerer archetype of "must worship Razmir."

But what you are suggesting falls dangerously close to (within, I would say) the prohibition against re-skinning.

PFS FAQ wrote:

Can I re-skin or re-flavor an animal companion or item?

You may choose a specific type of animal companion from any of the base forms listed on pages 53–54 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or a legal Additional Resource but may not use stats for one base form with the flavor of another type of animal. Thus, a small cat could be a cheetah or leopard, as suggested, as well as a lynx, bobcat, puma, or other similar animal; it could not, however, be "re-skinned" to be a giant hairless swamp rat or a differently-statted wolf. If a GM feels that a re-skinning is inappropriate or could have mechanical implications in the specific adventure being played, he may require that the creature simply be considered its generic base form for the duration of the adventure. A player may not re-skin items to be something for which there are no specific rules, and any item a character uses for which there are no stats is considered an improvised weapon (see page 144 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).

A Priest of Razmir is "Altered by Razmir’s magic, he can perform feats impossible for other sorcerers." The whole point of the archetype is to impress people with how "divine" Razmir is. If you take away the Razmiran aspects you've gotten into home game territory and there may be implications for play.

Come On:
You [generic] are correct. The FAQ says items and companions. It doesn't say anything about archetypes. But it also doesn't say anything about familiars. Come On. The intention is pretty clear.

Note: this is not an anti-Dylos statement. It's a per-emptive reply to whoever is going to make that argument.


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I don't agree that it's reskinning. It can just as well be (organic or not) character development. Maybe you started out as a Razmiran Priest - but had a spiritual awakening or just found out Rasmir's a fraud. You then turned to another religion, continuing your inner spiritual journey with a new faith as your focus (therefore continuing leveling as a sorcerer, and not as a cleric, and later as an evangelist, f.ex.).

I see nothing in the rules against this - and it seems a valid (and flavorful) choice for a character.

Silver Crusade 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 aka cartmanbeck

I agree that there's nothing stopping a Sorcerer with the Razmiran Priest archetype from turning away from Razmir and continuing his fake-divine-but-really-arcane magic under the auspices of another god or goddess. Seems like a fun concept to me.

Bounds off to make a build....

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

I can see turning away from Razmir. What I would disagree with is then continuing to gain levels in a class that derives its power from Razmir.

In a home game, maybe. Go ahead and show the people the frauds Razmir helped you pull off. Or claim it was Norgorber's doing all along. But you better believe that a large contingent of Razmiran faithful are going to show up to explain the error of your ways in a quite painful fashion. That can't happen in PFS.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

It's akin to my own concept. "Hey, I can do these things because I worship the big R! Wait, no, he's just some frumpy dude playing at being Dr. Doom! I can do these things without him. Bet all the gods are like that!"

Though a Razmirian Priest going into Evangelist of Sivanah is more fun...

Silver Crusade 2/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 aka cartmanbeck

cartmanbeck wrote:

I agree that there's nothing stopping a Sorcerer with the Razmiran Priest archetype from turning away from Razmir and continuing his fake-divine-but-really-arcane magic under the auspices of another god or goddess. Seems like a fun concept to me.

Bounds off to make a build....

Darn! The Razmiran Priest archetype of Sorcerer is PFS-legal, but the Razmiran Priest PRESTIGE CLASS is not. That severely hampers how much awesome you can accomplish in the false name of an even falser god. Oh well. Perhaps I'll use this character in a non-PFS game in the near future.

5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg

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Belafon wrote:
What I would disagree with is then continuing to gain levels in a class that derives its power from Razmir.

Remember that Razmir is not a god. While clerics have to continuously receive power from their deity, Razmir is not able to have such an influence.

The archetype does receive certain power from Razmir, but that's more like arcane initiation rituals that warp the sorcerer class to gain a few cleric-like abilities. After that point, the Razmiran Priest would basically be free to do whatever he wants, although a heretic would surely be in danger as the clergy of Razmir will try and hunt him down. Of course that won't happen in PFS, but on the other hand, most Razmirans don't know what the heretic looks like without his mask...

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

For those who don't know about the great re-skinning hullabaloo:

Spoiler:
Once upon a time at a convention far, far away, a character was riding along on her battle pig.

"A pig?" asks the GM. "How did you get a pig as a mount?"

"I use the stats for the riding dog. It's much more in line with my character idea and development to ride a pig though. And a lot funnier. So it's a pig with riding dog stats."

The problem was that the particular scenario being played included some NPCs that hate dogs. I mean really, really, hate dogs. No problems with pigs, but they hate dogs. The GM said "look - in the end it's a dog even if you call it a pig." The player left the table, feelings were hurt, and a long discussion erupted on the boards.

The net result was the FAQ ruling I posted above. I'm having a real problem seeing the difference between that situation and someone taking the Razmiran Priest archetype but saying "The archetype doesn't say I have to support Razmir so I actually use my abilities for Desna." Or "I used to believe in Razmir but now I don't. And in two more levels I get the ability to use my spell slots to power divine items!" Heck, the first example in this thread was to be a Razmiran Priest with the Evangelist prestige class (which really would require you to perform obediences to an actual deity).

Please note that this does *not* address my feeling about re-skinning in general (that's a different thread), just how I see this interacting with the FAQ ruling.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Actually the first concept in faith?hread was just a renegade. :-)

More mechanically there is nothing indicating you have to keep following Raz to stay in class. No sign of needing to return home for "booster shots" or having the symbiot in your pouch changed. :-)

As to converting to evangelist. Why not? We know the big R is getting divine help, so why not make the leap of faith? "In my darkest hour I prayed to the big R and he was silent. In despair I cried out to Nethys, and he awoke in me."

I mean it's not like there's a precident of a character calling out to a goddess he doesn't worship and get an answer..."

3/5

Let's not forget, of course, phase two of all Razmiran operations: use the poor to blackmail the leadership of a location into doing what the church of Razmir wants. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, for my Razmiran cleric (oracle). Knowing that he is going to need something to help him kill an evil god, he has stopped going on standard pathfinder missions and begun doing research into putting together a weapon or weapons that will let him kill one.

out of character, he's a metal oracle that just hit seeker status, so he's going to go on missions that he thinks will give him access to gear that will let him kill razmir. who he's convinced is an evil god, not just an incredibly powerful mortal.

Shadow Lodge

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Belafon wrote:


But what you are suggesting falls dangerously close to (within, I would say) the prohibition against re-skinning.

Please see this blog, in which John Compton addresses reflavoring characters.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

BigNorseWolf wrote:

You can't reskin the archetypes.

So if you want to use the archetype, I want to hear an "ALL HAIL RAZMIR!"

The Exchange 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Thanks for finding that BNW. Reading the surrounding posts is. . . enlightening.

Shadow Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

You can't reskin the archetypes.

So if you want to use the archetype, I want to hear an "ALL HAIL RAZMIR!"

Not sure how I managed to forget about that considering Mike directly quoted me to answer my question.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Not sure who is reskinning though. There's nothing saying that you lose your powers for leaving the big R, anymore than a member of the lion blade prestige class loses those powers when they get caught in <redacted>.

Shadow Lodge

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Keep in mind, it's still not a requirement to worship Razmir, because you cannot, he's not a legal deity and thus you cannot put his name on the deity line on your character sheet.

In fact, in light of the new FAQ, I see no reason you cannot say worship Nethys, and venerate Razmir.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Dylos wrote:

Keep in mind, it's still not a requirement to worship Razmir, because you cannot, he's not a legal deity and thus you cannot put his name on the deity line on your character sheet.

In fact, in light of the new FAQ, I see no reason you cannot say worship Nethys, and venerate Razmir.

I was going to dispute you, because Razmir actually has a full listing in among the 'other deities' -- but upon further review I see that nothing in Chapter 2 is listed as legal for PFS. How strange.

My Cleric of Naderi is now sad.


pH unbalanced wrote:
Dylos wrote:

Keep in mind, it's still not a requirement to worship Razmir, because you cannot, he's not a legal deity and thus you cannot put his name on the deity line on your character sheet.

In fact, in light of the new FAQ, I see no reason you cannot say worship Nethys, and venerate Razmir.

I was going to dispute you, because Razmir actually has a full listing in among the 'other deities' -- but upon further review I see that nothing in Chapter 2 is listed as legal for PFS. How strange.

My Cleric of Naderi is now sad.

Naderi is still legal since she is listed in the Other Deities section of the Appendix which is said to be legal for play. Still nothing about having an actual cleric of Razmir though.

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Dread Knight wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
Dylos wrote:

Keep in mind, it's still not a requirement to worship Razmir, because you cannot, he's not a legal deity and thus you cannot put his name on the deity line on your character sheet.

In fact, in light of the new FAQ, I see no reason you cannot say worship Nethys, and venerate Razmir.

I was going to dispute you, because Razmir actually has a full listing in among the 'other deities' -- but upon further review I see that nothing in Chapter 2 is listed as legal for PFS. How strange.

My Cleric of Naderi is now sad.

Naderi is still legal since she is listed in the Other Deities section of the Appendix which is said to be legal for play. Still nothing about having an actual cleric of Razmir though.

Yes, but this part is not legal:

ISG p180 wrote:
Clerics of Naderi may prepare lesser confusion as a 1st-level spell, crushing despair as a 3rd-level spell, and suffocation as a 5th-level spell. Her inquisitors may also learn these spells at the same spell levels.

Because they only legalized Variant Spellcasting for pages 19 - 171 (excluding 99) -- in other words, only for Chapter 1.

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