paizo.com Recent Posts in Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!paizo.com Recent Posts in Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!2014-05-05T13:01:59Z2014-05-05T13:01:59ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Digital Mystichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#372014-05-24T12:24:42Z2014-05-23T20:41:53Z<p>Yep. And I think I played the Dragon fairly well... sorta. He was a youngish dragon on his first town raid. Excited, inexperienced, and perhaps a bit blood thirsty. He did breathe on the targets once to soften them up (giving the pally time to smite him before melee began unfortunately). He then flew in and landed before the two PCs (double move) and roared, expecting them to cower and wish for their brown pants (as almost every humanoid has in the past). Longtooth probably expected that whoever inhabited the suit of once shiny (not soot covered) armor was severely hurt having taken a direct hit from his breath weapon the round before. He never imagined that one tiny fellow could do enough damage to him in a few brief seconds to prevent him from taking wing and escaping. Sadly, his lack of imagination was his undoing.</p>Yep. And I think I played the Dragon fairly well... sorta. He was a youngish dragon on his first town raid. Excited, inexperienced, and perhaps a bit blood thirsty. He did breathe on the targets once to soften them up (giving the pally time to smite him before melee began unfortunately). He then flew in and landed before the two PCs (double move) and roared, expecting them to cower and wish for their brown pants (as almost every humanoid has in the past). Longtooth probably expected that...Digital Mystic2014-05-23T20:41:53ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!shadowkrashttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#362014-05-23T20:15:51Z2014-05-23T20:15:51Z<p>Ah, my bad, got confused with another spell. All Litanies are swift actions aparently.</p>Ah, my bad, got confused with another spell. All Litanies are swift actions aparently.shadowkras2014-05-23T20:15:51ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Shadar Amanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#352014-05-23T19:53:22Z2014-05-23T19:53:22Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">shadowkras wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Pally drops a spell I totally forgot about on the presmitten dragon called Litany of Righteousness. Yeah, if you don't know about that spell, and you have a pally in your group, go take a look at it. I'll wait.</blockquote><p>Did you take into consideration that Litany takes a full round to cast?
</p>
Was the dragon a spellcaster? Did he identify the spell being cast on him? He should fly right away with a litany and a curse on him, debuff himself, and just breath on them every other d4 rounds.
<br />
Unless the dragon was really cocky and was nearly at full health.</p>
<p>Let me add this though,
<br />
That was pretty epic and i bet the players had fun. Good job! </blockquote><p>"Casting Time: 1 swift action"
<p>The duration is 1 round, but casting is quick.</p>shadowkras wrote:Quote:Pally drops a spell I totally forgot about on the presmitten dragon called Litany of Righteousness. Yeah, if you don't know about that spell, and you have a pally in your group, go take a look at it. I'll wait.
Did you take into consideration that Litany takes a full round to cast?
Was the dragon a spellcaster? Did he identify the spell being cast on him? He should fly right away with a litany and a curse on him, debuff himself, and just breath on them every other d4...Shadar Aman2014-05-23T19:53:22ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!shadowkrashttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#342014-05-23T19:40:42Z2014-05-23T19:40:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Pally drops a spell I totally forgot about on the presmitten dragon called Litany of Righteousness. Yeah, if you don't know about that spell, and you have a pally in your group, go take a look at it. I'll wait.</blockquote><p>Did you take into consideration that Litany takes a full round to cast?
</p>
Was the dragon a spellcaster? Did he identify the spell being cast on him? He should fly right away with a litany and a curse on him, debuff himself, and just breath on them every other d4 rounds.
<br />
Unless the dragon was really cocky and was nearly at full health.</p>
<p>Let me add this though,
<br />
That was pretty epic and i bet the players had fun. Good job!</p>Quote:Pally drops a spell I totally forgot about on the presmitten dragon called Litany of Righteousness. Yeah, if you don't know about that spell, and you have a pally in your group, go take a look at it. I'll wait.
Did you take into consideration that Litany takes a full round to cast?
Was the dragon a spellcaster? Did he identify the spell being cast on him? He should fly right away with a litany and a curse on him, debuff himself, and just breath on them every other d4 rounds.
Unless...shadowkras2014-05-23T19:40:42ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!TyrKnighthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#332014-05-23T02:05:52Z2014-05-23T02:05:52Z<p>If you have close calls, that's the important thing. If you have them interested and responding, that's the important thing. If everyone's having fun, that's the important thing.</p>
<p>The next section will be a challenge, since there's some single encounters here and there but the main section is more of a sustained sustained dungeon crawl. There's not a way to really retreat and rest without having someone alerted.</p>
<p>With five well-built characters, I would also be a full level behind what the module suggests. You didn't mention the level. But with my five characters, they were a full level behind when they hit the raid on Sandpoint, and I increased the dragon one whole age category too. Still managed to do well and drive off the dragon. But I had the paladin engaged with giants rather than the dragon.</p>If you have close calls, that's the important thing. If you have them interested and responding, that's the important thing. If everyone's having fun, that's the important thing.
The next section will be a challenge, since there's some single encounters here and there but the main section is more of a sustained sustained dungeon crawl. There's not a way to really retreat and rest without having someone alerted.
With five well-built characters, I would also be a full level behind what the...TyrKnight2014-05-23T02:05:52ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Digital Mystichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#322014-05-21T20:01:59Z2014-05-21T20:01:59Z<p>Ooohh... Oh man I wish I had thought of that. Ended up running the rest of the encounter mostly as normal, but padded it with a few more giants. The players had their final encounter with Mr. T between the town hall and the garrison. I added four giants to the encounter, but had a couple of NPCs (the characters of former members of the group who had retired to Sandpoint) take out one of them. Then while the group handled the other three giants, I had Hemlock and a few guardsmen try to take on Mr. T, who rapidly killed the guards and mortally wounded Hemlock. The group had to rush to finish their combat so the pally could move forward and catch Hemlock with the very edge of a Channel and save his life. Then the combat with Mr. T began continued with the Wizard casting Mass Enlarge, Elemental Body (Air) and flying up above the melee while the pally and the Barbarian went toe to toe with the big guy. Mr. T gave as good as he got, and was honestly on the verge of dropping both of them, until the Wizard tried something off the wall, and used Fabricate (!?!) offensively to encase the giants feet. I allowed it with a save (after all, wall of stone would have done something similar), Mr. T failed his save, and I ruled him entangled, cutting his AC by -4. This was just enough to allow the Barbarian and Pally to finish him off before he wrecked him with his Six (!?!) pick attacks a round. All in all, it was a solid game session, with some close calls and a good rousing battle. I think next week is time for a bit of RP since we have had so much combat over the last few weeks.</p>Ooohh... Oh man I wish I had thought of that. Ended up running the rest of the encounter mostly as normal, but padded it with a few more giants. The players had their final encounter with Mr. T between the town hall and the garrison. I added four giants to the encounter, but had a couple of NPCs (the characters of former members of the group who had retired to Sandpoint) take out one of them. Then while the group handled the other three giants, I had Hemlock and a few guardsmen try to take on...Digital Mystic2014-05-21T20:01:59ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!ZenithTNhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#312014-05-21T18:02:49Z2014-05-21T18:02:49Z<p>The Giants could convert from an assault to a body recovery mission, with the intent of raising their slain dragon ally. Just a thought.</p>The Giants could convert from an assault to a body recovery mission, with the intent of raising their slain dragon ally. Just a thought.ZenithTN2014-05-21T18:02:49ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Digital Mystichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#302014-05-20T18:00:41Z2014-05-20T18:00:41Z<p>The Pally was under the effect of an extended haste, so he had an extra attack. The dragon was pre-smitten (smited? Smote?) as it flew over the players the round before and breathed on them. All the damage was indeed done in one round, and in fact, the player had missed with the first of his three (2+Haste) attacks, so it was actually done in only two attacks. </p>
<p>LoR certainly has its flaws, and I do not believe it is entirely over powered, however like any multiplicative effect, it can be abused in the right situations, as illustrated by my pally, the dragonslayer.</p>The Pally was under the effect of an extended haste, so he had an extra attack. The dragon was pre-smitten (smited? Smote?) as it flew over the players the round before and breathed on them. All the damage was indeed done in one round, and in fact, the player had missed with the first of his three (2+Haste) attacks, so it was actually done in only two attacks.
LoR certainly has its flaws, and I do not believe it is entirely over powered, however like any multiplicative effect, it can be...Digital Mystic2014-05-20T18:00:41ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Shadar Amanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#292014-05-19T23:20:49Z2014-05-19T23:20:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lazyness wrote:</div><blockquote> Litany of Righteousness ISN'T such a great spell actually, I think there was a misplay here since this spell has a 1 round duration. I doubt your dragon would have taken as much dmg taking that into consideration. </blockquote><p>All that damage seems to have happened in a single round, so the spell would have worked for all of it.
<p>I also have a Paladin in my party for this campaign, and he definitely took out that dragon fast. Against evil creatures, Paladins are pretty much insane.</p>Lazyness wrote:Litany of Righteousness ISN'T such a great spell actually, I think there was a misplay here since this spell has a 1 round duration. I doubt your dragon would have taken as much dmg taking that into consideration.
All that damage seems to have happened in a single round, so the spell would have worked for all of it. I also have a Paladin in my party for this campaign, and he definitely took out that dragon fast. Against evil creatures, Paladins are pretty much insane.Shadar Aman2014-05-19T23:20:49ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Lazynesshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#282014-05-19T19:12:50Z2014-05-19T19:12:50Z<p>Litany of Righteousness ISN'T such a great spell actually, I think there was a misplay here since this spell has a 1 round duration. I doubt your dragon would have taken as much dmg taking that into consideration.</p>Litany of Righteousness ISN'T such a great spell actually, I think there was a misplay here since this spell has a 1 round duration. I doubt your dragon would have taken as much dmg taking that into consideration.Lazyness2014-05-19T19:12:50ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!TyrKnighthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#272014-05-09T02:14:52Z2014-05-09T02:14:52Z<p>I beefed up the dragon. I have one more person (5 person party) so I usually beef up the encounters. With a well-designed party, you have to generally up some of the encounters a little bit. But it sounds like a fun encounter.</p>I beefed up the dragon. I have one more person (5 person party) so I usually beef up the encounters. With a well-designed party, you have to generally up some of the encounters a little bit. But it sounds like a fun encounter.TyrKnight2014-05-09T02:14:52ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Gilariushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#262014-05-08T07:53:23Z2014-05-08T07:53:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">CWheezy wrote:</div><blockquote> Ah, I thought all dragons had SR, silly me! </blockquote><p>They do if the GM wants them to...certainly the Longtooth that our party faced had SR. He was also huge size, and probably significantly beefed up compared to the AP's version.
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>edit: PS, we're going to play Way of the Wicked next. Having seen how Paladins devastate evil creatures, we're already terrified of meeting any!</p>CWheezy wrote:Ah, I thought all dragons had SR, silly me!
They do if the GM wants them to...certainly the Longtooth that our party faced had SR. He was also huge size, and probably significantly beefed up compared to the AP's version. [Spoiler omitted]
edit: PS, we're going to play Way of the Wicked next. Having seen how Paladins devastate evil creatures, we're already terrified of meeting any!Gilarius2014-05-08T07:53:23ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!P.H. Dungeonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#252014-05-08T01:33:25Z2014-05-08T01:33:25Z<p>It's an epic moment except that the paladin will probably be using that spell a lot from here on in, so you can expect to deal with plenty more of it. It looks like a pretty broken spell since you can stack it with a full round attacks, and it doubles the damage of each hit. The result is a 2nd level spell that has the potentially to do well over a hundred damage. Of course it's not as broken as haste, but it seems pretty full of power gamer cheese to me.</p>It's an epic moment except that the paladin will probably be using that spell a lot from here on in, so you can expect to deal with plenty more of it. It looks like a pretty broken spell since you can stack it with a full round attacks, and it doubles the damage of each hit. The result is a 2nd level spell that has the potentially to do well over a hundred damage. Of course it's not as broken as haste, but it seems pretty full of power gamer cheese to me.P.H. Dungeon2014-05-08T01:33:25ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!CWheezyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#242014-05-08T01:22:26Z2014-05-08T01:22:26Z<p>Ah, I thought all dragons had SR, silly me!</p>Ah, I thought all dragons had SR, silly me!CWheezy2014-05-08T01:22:26ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!NobodysHomehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#232014-05-08T00:50:16Z2014-05-08T00:50:16Z<p>Facts are for amateurs!</p>Facts are for amateurs!NobodysHome2014-05-08T00:50:16ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Digital Mystichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#222014-05-08T00:34:20Z2014-05-08T00:34:20Z<p>Thank you much Latrecis, tho late, you are still appreciated.</p>Thank you much Latrecis, tho late, you are still appreciated.Digital Mystic2014-05-08T00:34:20ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Latrecishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#212014-05-08T00:26:04Z2014-05-08T00:26:04Z<p>Drat! Too slow. That'll teach me to double-check to make sure I have my facts right!</p>Drat! Too slow. That'll teach me to double-check to make sure I have my facts right!Latrecis2014-05-08T00:26:04ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Latrecishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#202014-05-08T00:23:07Z2014-05-08T00:23:07Z<p>DM - I don't think you made a mistake. Dragons do not acquire Spell Resistance until Young Adult (see Bestiary P. 98 for Red Dragons.) Longtooth is a Juvenile and does not have spell resistance. His entry in the AP does not list SR for that reason.</p>DM - I don't think you made a mistake. Dragons do not acquire Spell Resistance until Young Adult (see Bestiary P. 98 for Red Dragons.) Longtooth is a Juvenile and does not have spell resistance. His entry in the AP does not list SR for that reason.Latrecis2014-05-08T00:23:07ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Digital Mystichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#192014-05-08T00:07:01Z2014-05-08T00:07:01Z<p>Whew. Good deal. Should have thought of checking the Bestiary. Somehow it does feel ... wrong... for a dragon to be missing SR.</p>Whew. Good deal. Should have thought of checking the Bestiary. Somehow it does feel ... wrong... for a dragon to be missing SR.Digital Mystic2014-05-08T00:07:01ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!NobodysHomehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#182014-05-08T00:02:23Z2014-05-08T00:02:23Z<p>Well, oops-my-do! DM is right — the Longtooth stat block in the AE has no SR listed for Longtooth.</p>
<p>Checking the bestiary, young red dragons don't have it yet.</p>
<p>You played it right, DM! Dragons don't get SR until they're adults.</p>Well, oops-my-do! DM is right -- the Longtooth stat block in the AE has no SR listed for Longtooth.
Checking the bestiary, young red dragons don't have it yet.
You played it right, DM! Dragons don't get SR until they're adults.NobodysHome2014-05-08T00:02:23ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Digital Mystichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#172014-05-07T23:57:59Z2014-05-07T23:57:59Z<p>Ok CWheezy, you are the second person to mention spell resistance here, so I want to check something... was there some Errata that I missed that gave Longtooth SR? I just double checked his stats in the AP and, unless I just missed it somehow, he does not have any. I remember searching for that the very moment that the pally mentioned that he was casting the spell, and being very surprised that a dragon was lacking something so ubiquitous. If LT was supposed to have spellpower then I made quite a booboo.</p>Ok CWheezy, you are the second person to mention spell resistance here, so I want to check something... was there some Errata that I missed that gave Longtooth SR? I just double checked his stats in the AP and, unless I just missed it somehow, he does not have any. I remember searching for that the very moment that the pally mentioned that he was casting the spell, and being very surprised that a dragon was lacking something so ubiquitous. If LT was supposed to have spellpower then I made...Digital Mystic2014-05-07T23:57:59ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!CWheezyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#162014-05-07T20:26:08Z2014-05-07T20:26:08Z<p>Remember: Litany of righteousness does have an SR check, which paladins are terrible at.</p>
<p>He had a decent chance at failing the SR vs longtooth</p>Remember: Litany of righteousness does have an SR check, which paladins are terrible at.
He had a decent chance at failing the SR vs longtoothCWheezy2014-05-07T20:26:08ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Andrew Harastyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#152014-05-07T16:05:56Z2014-05-07T16:05:56Z<p>Dragons are deadly if they can keep at range (flying) or when they get their full attack. Any player melee brute with haste can safely dish out 150 per round. </p>
<p>So occassionally the palyers get lucky :). For the record when I played RotRL my barbarian did one shot another dragon. Every now and then the BBEG rolls a 1 on a save.</p>Dragons are deadly if they can keep at range (flying) or when they get their full attack. Any player melee brute with haste can safely dish out 150 per round.
So occassionally the palyers get lucky :). For the record when I played RotRL my barbarian did one shot another dragon. Every now and then the BBEG rolls a 1 on a save.Andrew Harasty2014-05-07T16:05:56ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!Story Archer (alias of Wiggz)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#142014-05-07T14:26:46Z2014-05-07T14:26:46Z<p>I'd like to point you towards <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qb0b?How-did-your-Giants-attack-on-Sandpoint-go" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><b>this</b></a> discussion, particularly towards my first post. I threw in a handful of extra giants and a couple of roving gangs of Ogres... they can appear or not as and when you wish since the PC's have no way of knowing how many villains are participating in the raid nor of knowing where everyone is at any given time. Still lots of options for you to prolong the battle and ratchet up the drama.</p>
<p>Yes, Litany of Righteousness is definitely a spell GM's need to be aware of - but many forget that its subject to Spell Resistance. We don't play with SR, but its something to consider in future encounters. We also don't use the 'doubling' rule of the Paladin Smite (just over the top in our estimation), but regardless you need to be aware of his ability to lay the smack down on any 'BBEG', so have some mooks there to run interference from time to time.</p>I'd like to point you towards this discussion, particularly towards my first post. I threw in a handful of extra giants and a couple of roving gangs of Ogres... they can appear or not as and when you wish since the PC's have no way of knowing how many villains are participating in the raid nor of knowing where everyone is at any given time. Still lots of options for you to prolong the battle and ratchet up the drama.
Yes, Litany of Righteousness is definitely a spell GM's need to be aware of...Story Archer (alias of Wiggz)2014-05-07T14:26:46ZRe: Forums: Rise of the Runelords: Never let a pally stand near your dragon... HELP!NobodysHomehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qz83?Never-let-a-pally-stand-near-your-dragon-HELP#132014-05-07T13:57:57Z2014-05-07T13:57:57Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gilarius wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Litany of Righteousness isn't particularly overpowered. You need an Aura of good (eg paladins, good clerics, a few prestige classes, etc) for it to benefit you, not just be good aligned. </p>
<p>It has short range and can't be used in the same round as lay on hands easily if the paladin attacks.</p>
<p>A paladin's smite evil is much more effective, and there are ways for a higher level paladin to share the effects of smiting with allies...</p>
<p>So, yes paladins will demolish evil enemies, but that spell isn't the reason why! </blockquote><p>Really depends on how you read it. My reading is that it's a swift action to double damage, <i>including smite damage</i>. So it's not, "Oh, I can double my 1d6 scimitar," it's, "You're a dragon and now I'm doing 4x my level on the first hit and 2x my level on each subsequent hit during a full-round action."
<p>Having completed the AP and watched my player's paladin obliterate things without the <i>Litany</i>, I shudder to imagine a <i>hasted</i> smiting paladin invoking <i>Litany</i> to one-round anything evil.</p>Gilarius wrote:Litany of Righteousness isn't particularly overpowered. You need an Aura of good (eg paladins, good clerics, a few prestige classes, etc) for it to benefit you, not just be good aligned.
It has short range and can't be used in the same round as lay on hands easily if the paladin attacks.
A paladin's smite evil is much more effective, and there are ways for a higher level paladin to share the effects of smiting with allies...
So, yes paladins will demolish evil enemies, but...NobodysHome2014-05-07T13:57:57Z