CMB vs CMD imbalance. Any fixes done or coming?

[Millefune]

I'm finding that it's way easier and cheaper to raise your CMB than your CMD. So much that CMB builds start wrecking CR appropriate and even "CR+3" fights by low-mid levels. I know the general ways to raise CMD described in the CMB/CMD section of the Core Rulebook, but are there other ways to raise CMD or some new rules or supplements I'm missing that balanced out the disparity of ease of raising CMB over difficulty of raising CMD?

[Belafon]

You're actually describing the exact opposite problem most people complain about on these boards. It may be the level you are currently at, most complaints are about mid-to-high levels CMB being useless. Especially vs. non-humanoids.

Things that raise CMD:
BAB
Dexterity Modifier
Strength Modifier
Deflection bonuses
Dodge Bonuses
(Basically any AC bonus that isn't armor, shield, or natural typed)
Shield Specialization feat
Improved maneuver feats (Improved Trip gives you +2 CMD vs. trip, etc.)
Sizes above medium
Various class abilities

Other feats, equipment enchants, etc.

[Wasum]

It is easier to get sky high CMD but its still possible to have enough CMB to get through 85% of all CMDs monsters have. True is, if you dont want to be CMBed you can make concepts with enough CMD to achieve that. But usually you dont do that so CMB-builds are really effective all the way.

The problem is that a lot of people on the boards play whip bards with imp. trip, weapon finesse and 14 dex and wonder why this trick gets useless so fast.

Lore Warden/Maneuver Master Monk will easily dirty trick + trip everything anywhere in his CR range. Same goes for Trip Oracles or Magi, for Ragecycling Barbarians and for a lot of multiclass builds.

[Barachiel Shina]

Agile Maneuvers and Defensive Combat Training are two feats that boost CMD too.

[Gregory Connolly]

CMB works great against PC types not so much against big monsters. A specialist in any tactic is gonna ruin most things, sure CMB works, so does overwhelming damage, debuffing and save or lose.

[Diminutive Titan]

Don't forget that creatures with multiple legs have high CMD against trip too.

[Imbicatus]

Or if it is flying or has no legs it's flat out immune to being tripped.

Freedom of Movement is immune to being grappled.

Dirty Trick has the most vial options for not being immune to the maneuver, but at the same time, it isn't a weapon based maneuver so you will only get your base CMB plue improved/greater bonuses for it. You will not get the enhancement bonus of a weapon so the CMB will be lower than a weapon based maneuver.

[Belafon]

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Agile Maneuvers and Defensive Combat Training are two feats that boost CMD too.

Agile Maneuvers does not boost CMD. It affects CMB (lets you use Dexterity instead of Strength).

Similarly Defensive Combat Training has no effect if you are a full BAB class (or full BAB monster).

[StreamOfTheSky]

As others said, the problem is CMD is way too high, not the other way around.

And Def. Combat Training may do nothing for a full BAB character, but there's a follow-on feat, called Advanced Def. Combat Training, iirc, that gives a fairly significant +4 boost to CMD vs. anything. But it requires the former feat first, even if it does nothing for you...

[Kudaku]

Advanced Defensive Combat Training not only requires you to pick up Defensive Combat Training, you also have to be a member of the Bellflower Network...

I'm going to go ahead and rank that one up with "you can't trip people well if you don't have INT 13".

[Undone]

Millefune wrote:

I'm finding that it's way easier and cheaper to raise your CMB than your CMD. So much that CMB builds start wrecking CR appropriate and even "CR+3" fights by low-mid levels. I know the general ways to raise CMD described in the CMB/CMD section of the Core Rulebook, but are there other ways to raise CMD or some new rules or supplements I'm missing that balanced out the disparity of ease of raising CMB over difficulty of raising CMD?

Because FOM, Fly, and a few other spells literally negate 100% of combat maneuvers.

[Korthis]

above wrote:

Dirty Trick has the most vial options for not being immune to the maneuver, but at the same time, it isn't a weapon based maneuver so you will only get your base CMB plue improved/greater bonuses for it. You will not get the enhancement bonus of a weapon so the CMB will be lower than a weapon based maneuver.

What if you use the weapon to do the maneuver though?

Net for entangled, hit a target in the ear with the flat of your blade for deafen, etc

[LoneKnave]

Pit Fighter PrC can also use a weapon for dirty tricking.

Also, isn't there a weapon enchant specifically to use it for dirty tricks?

[Imbicatus]

Nope. Unless you have a specific feat or ability that allows you to make dirty tricks with a weapon, such as the Learned Duelest's science of the blade or the Net Trickery feat, you cannot make dirty tricks with a weapon.

[TarkXT]

That being said. Reposition can be pretty good adn does use a weapon.

I'm also a fan of spiked destroyer overrun builds.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Dirty tricks can be done with a weapon subject to GM discretion. SKR specifically mentions sap for sickened to the groin in his blogpost...

[Millefune]

Level 8 (1 Barbarian, 7 Lore Warden Fighter): +8 BAB, +6 STR, +2 Improved Trip, +2 Greater Trip, +1 Weapon Focus, +2 DEX (Fury's Fall), +2 Weapon Enhancement Bonus, +4 Maneuver Mastery = +27 before Heroism, Rage, and/or Enlarge Person kicks in... and you don't have to dump WIS or CHA and be ugly or crude/rude or foolish.

22 STR (16 + 2 Racial/Choice + 2 Belt + 1 Level 4 + 1 Level 8) = 10 points
14 DEX = 5 points
13 INT = 3 points

2 more points to play with. If we really wanted to be lame, dump two and one point(s) from WIS and/or CHA... and you can get 16 DEX for another +1. Then there's stuff like Inspire Courage, Bless, Prayer, Heroism, whatever.

Most CR 8 stuff have CMDs in the mid to high 20s. Some in the low 30s. Eezy peezy for a +27 CMB... before buffs. Even without Lore Warden's Maneuver Mastery, a +23 CMB (before buffs) makes easy work of the vast majority of CR 8s.

There are all sorts of feats and buffs to help attack (and thus CMB). But three of the biggest forms of buffs to AC (Armor, Natural, and Shield) don't apply to CMD.

[Imbicatus]

How many of those are flat out immune to the maneuver though?

Your example is a tripper. Bad choice. I'm picking 5 CR 8 foes at random:

Greater Shadow: Incorperal. Can't be tripped or Grappled.
Efreeti: Has a Fly speed, can't be tripped. It also has Heat, meaning it's a bad idea to grapple it.
Lamia Matriarch: CMD 32 (can’t be tripped)
Erinyes: Fly Speed, Immune to trip. CMD 31
Quickwood: CMD 27 (can’t be tripped)

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Honestly, I think combat maneuvers should be options, not specializations. Get rid of the improved and greater feats, create one feat that covers both (Without the +4 bonus), and at the same time, reduce CMD across the board, maybe by involving only adding 5 instead of ten, or taking strength or dexterity out of the equation, etc...

Also, odd tidbit, I find it odd that tiny creatures that can evade balls of fire and really easy to catch and grapple. O.o

[Imbicatus]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Also, odd tidbit, I find it odd that tiny creatures that can evade balls of fire and really easy to catch and grapple. O.o

If you ever see a cat catch flying bird it becomes easier to accept.

[revaar]

The general effectiveness of maneuver builds increases when fighting humanoid foes, since HD seem scale disproportionately with CR. If your GM is running a game where you're mostly fighting NPC's with levels, go for it. If you are doing a dungeon dive, you're gonna have a bad time.

[Matthew Downie]

Imbicatus wrote:

If you ever see a cat catch flying bird it becomes easier to accept.

If you ever tried to catch a flying bird yourself - or a cat who doesn't like you, for that matter - then you'll see why it seems like it ought to be fairly difficult.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

I've seen many cats catch flying birds

All of which were flat footed :P.

I've yet to see a cat catch a bird who knew that the cat was coming (except when said bird had already given up). My parent's house used to have 13 cats in total, in a forested landscape.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Can you imagine a Giant catching a bird though? But thems the rules, almost auto grapple O.o

[ChainsawSam]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Honestly, I think combat maneuvers should be options, not specializations. Get rid of the improved and greater feats, create one feat that covers both (Without the +4 bonus), and at the same time, reduce CMD across the board, maybe by involving only adding 5 instead of ten, or taking strength or dexterity out of the equation, etc...

Also, odd tidbit, I find it odd that tiny creatures that can evade balls of fire and really easy to catch and grapple. O.o

I was thinking one feat that removes the Attack of Opportunity for even trying and giving a flat +2 CMB/CMD.

Then we could keep the greater versions for people who want to "specialize" and most of the greater versions are worth it outside of the +2 (AoO on trip, more dirty trick duraion, etc).

Combat maneuvers are cool. They make martial combat more interesting than move and attack or full attack. The system should be encouraging the use of as many different maneuvers as possible, not requiring hyperspecialization for even a chance of using them.

[Millefune]

Yes, ChainsawSam, I'm not a fan of hyper-specialized one-trick ponies either.

In a city-based campaign CMB specialized NPCs and characters are pretty much unstoppable unless you build to counter.

I'm a "turtle-style" player in games, and I'm finding that it's a lot harder for me to raise my CMD than it is for others to raise their CMB. This saddens me,and which is why I made the post in the advice column to see if there was a way to even the gap.