Is 3.5e bloat coming back?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Anzyr wrote:
Exalted isn't necessarily "overpowered", but I expect it to be standard on any Oracle that isn't relying on something like the Aasimar FCB or waiting on their capstone ability. And quite frankly that's a lot of Oracles. Also it's important to note that the 5th level ability gives you domain spells as SLAs. That's actually super amazing with the right domain, since you can get cost free resurrections and what not. And that's discounting the domain abilities you get.

There isn't a single resurrection spell that I know of that's a domain spell.


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LazarX wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Exalted isn't necessarily "overpowered", but I expect it to be standard on any Oracle that isn't relying on something like the Aasimar FCB or waiting on their capstone ability. And quite frankly that's a lot of Oracles. Also it's important to note that the 5th level ability gives you domain spells as SLAs. That's actually super amazing with the right domain, since you can get cost free resurrections and what not. And that's discounting the domain abilities you get.
There isn't a single resurrection spell that I know of that's a domain spell.

Resurrection Subdomain gives you three.


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LazarX wrote:
There isn't a single resurrection spell that I know of that's a domain spell.

Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection are all available by domain. Oddly enough on the resurrection subdomain. Various domains also offer interesting options like Gate and Miracle.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

LazarX wrote:
There isn't a single resurrection spell that I know of that's a domain spell.

The Resurrection subdomain of the Healing domain (from the APG) has raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection all as domain spells.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Daenar wrote:
Realizing too late I should have stuck with crb , GMG APG and besiaries1-3. Got WAAY too much invested money in my collection to just stop using the extras:( sadly when DND next arrives if I like it I will likely turn from pathfinder. Just hope I can ignore 90 % of the splat. I.e. not getting monster manuals requiring more than the core rules. Setting sourcebooks with city maps/ details are also OK by me. Complete/ ultimate type books I will keep a close eye on.options are good, power creep isn't.

Wait... So you are saying because you have spent money on some new books, you are compelled to use them as you dont want to waste the money you spent on the extras. But you are willing to spend more money on dnd next?


chaoseffect wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Exalted isn't necessarily "overpowered", but I expect it to be standard on any Oracle that isn't relying on something like the Aasimar FCB or waiting on their capstone ability. And quite frankly that's a lot of Oracles. Also it's important to note that the 5th level ability gives you domain spells as SLAs. That's actually super amazing with the right domain, since you can get cost free resurrections and what not. And that's discounting the domain abilities you get.
There isn't a single resurrection spell that I know of that's a domain spell.
Resurrection Subdomain gives you three.
andreww wrote:
LazarX wrote:
There isn't a single resurrection spell that I know of that's a domain spell.
Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection are all available by domain. Oddly enough on the resurrection subdomain. Various domains also offer interesting options like Gate and Miracle.
Jiggy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
There isn't a single resurrection spell that I know of that's a domain spell.
The Resurrection subdomain of the Healing domain (from the APG) has raise dead, resurrection, and true resurrection all as domain spells.

Double ninja!

Silver Crusade

If it was truly broken, they'd PFS ban it or errata it. More likely the second, as it's always nice to see something get Crane Wing'd for being a vaguely superior option.


Double ninja all the way acroo~ooss the thread! Oooo~oooo~oooh, yeah, so intense~!


Artanthos wrote:
Adjule wrote:


Did I say stop being a Paizo customer? No. I said stop playing the organized play where you have 0 say in what other people can play because you don't control their spending habits.
For someone whose sole avenue of play is PFS, there is no distinction.

Then they should make it to not be their sole avenue of play. Where's will there's always a way.


Ipslore the Red wrote:

Specifically, PrCs being the best options forever, 100 base classes and 500 PrCs, a zillion special materials, and so on.

I ask because of the paper-bound abomination known as Inner Sea Gods and the monstrosity known as Evangelist. From what I have seen of the book, namely Walter's guide to it, it seems to be almost universally terrible from a balance standpoint. Especially evangelist. You lose one level- one fricking level-of your class, and it's easy to get a feat to bring class features back to hit dice. Then you get 100% free features for another 9 levels.

And then exalted has straight spellcasting progression, permanent protect from ______, AND a free domain.

Sentinel is disgustingly cheesy as well. Bonus feats, free +1s to hit and damage, fricking LEADERSHIP for free, +4 to initiative DR, Diehard, and cure critical wounds as a swift action on yourself?

Am I overreacting or should this book never have been written and its authors terminated posthaste?

Yes, you're overreacting. Like, a little kid throwing a tantrum over nothing overreacting. It's laugh-worthy.

1. PF has never been balanced, because 3e was never balanced.
2. Don't like it, don't use it, don't buy it, simple as that.

Scarab Sages

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Anarchy_Kanya wrote:


Then they should make it to not be their sole avenue of play. Where's will there's always a way.

As soon as I get access to Simulacrum or a reasonably intelligent AI I'll agree with you.

I would love a set group. Has not happened in almost 15 years now.


Artanthos wrote:
Anarchy_Kanya wrote:


Then they should make it to not be their sole avenue of play. Where's will there's always a way.

As soon as I get access to Simulacrum or a reasonably intelligent AI I'll agree with you.

I would love a set group. Has not happened in almost 15 years now.

May I recommend online gaming? Roll20 is quite useful as a virtual tabletop and group finder.

As for the Evangelist, I think it's incredibly powerful. There's absolutely no reason for Clerics not to take it unless they REALLY don't want to delay their casting a level.


Scavion wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Anarchy_Kanya wrote:


Then they should make it to not be their sole avenue of play. Where's will there's always a way.

As soon as I get access to Simulacrum or a reasonably intelligent AI I'll agree with you.

I would love a set group. Has not happened in almost 15 years now.

May I recommend online gaming? Roll20 is quite useful as a virtual tabletop and group finder.

I was about to recommend that. If it wasn't for Roll20.net, I wouldn't have any avenue of play, as there is no PFS within a reasonable distance from me. There's a local group that play tabletop (found this out just this year), but their playstyle is so far from mine that I absolutely know I would have no fun playing with them.

No gaming is better than bad gaming. I went 10 years without actually playing (played a game back in 2007 for 1 session).


Scavion wrote:


As for the Evangelist, I think it's incredibly powerful. There's absolutely no reason for Clerics not to take it unless they REALLY don't want to delay their casting a level.

As i said i don't have the book yet so i don't have seen the obediances and the boons, but i have read the evangelist PrC and there are things that a cleric loses, those are fort and will saves, hit points (due to lack of FCB), might lose 1 BAB (depending on the level you take the PrC and the level that the campaign ends) and lose 1 spellcasting level, channel level and domain level.

I am not saying that evangelist is a bad PrC for clerics (i haven't read the obediances and the boons so i can't judge for the PrC yet) but there are things to lose for a cleric who enters the PrC.


leo1925 wrote:
Scavion wrote:


As for the Evangelist, I think it's incredibly powerful. There's absolutely no reason for Clerics not to take it unless they REALLY don't want to delay their casting a level.

As i said i don't have the book yet so i don't have seen the obediances and the boons, but i have read the evangelist PrC and there are things that a cleric loses, those are fort and will saves, hit points (due to lack of FCB), might lose 1 BAB (depending on the level you take the PrC and the level that the campaign ends) and lose 1 spellcasting level, channel level and domain level.

I am not saying that evangelist is a bad PrC for clerics (i haven't read the obediances and the boons so i can't judge for the PrC yet) but there are things to lose for a cleric who enters the PrC.

Domain level only matters to about 8th level and that's if your domain is any good.

Saves are more rounded out. Not necessarily a bad thing. End game you end up with 10 8 10 instead of 12 6 12.

-1 BAB hurts but can be made up for. Clerics were never hurt too much by a single spellcasting level, a popular dip was Fighter for proficiencies and BAB.

Channeling was never very useful to a Cleric. Just saved charges on a Cure Light Wounds wand. YMMV.


My 2cp:
As far as I can tell, pathfinder only has a problem of "far too much for anyone reasonable to keep in mind". Which is one of the things I like about pathfinder, that being the choices presented. Which is why E6 and other "limited" versions of the game have popped up. I honestly prefer more choice to less, but that's me. "Core" is still strictly easier (and in most cases better) though there are always those optimized corner cases that cause trouble.

With that considered, I checked out those PrCs mentioned (of course, this all depends on obediences, which mostly sucked for demon & empyreal lords, do I have no idea if the deific ones are any better):

Why would a cleric take evangelist? As far as I see, it looses all spellcasting for a bunch of boons; hardly overpowered. Edit: noticed "aligned class". This is far too open to interpretation, and is, yes, a bit much (IE, spellcasting is a class feature, but it's not one with a straightforward level progression (unlike a domain power) so it may not be included). Hm. I expect this to be clarified soon, because it goes against paizo's general policy of having PrCs have actual trade-offs. Yeah, this seems a bit much.

Exalted is interesting, gets a bit more than the evangelist, except for the SLA thing (though it wont be too much trouble in PFS where the caster level theoretically never goes past 11, and that limits the SLAs). Might simply houserule it to being one extra domain slot per level per day. Not too much.

Sentinel seems as close to "paladin as a prestige class" as I have ever seen. Might actually replace paladins in my games with this, because I find it fits the theme well, and has good stuff for all alignements.

This adds... maybe 3 new PrCs that are very interesting, bringing the total to less than 10. And there has yet to be a PrC that I have ever seen billed as truly "essential".

As for the "very interesting" PrCs:

-Champion Of Irori
-Mystery Cultist (of arshea, oradin base)
-Master chymist
+ the 3 new ones.

We are nowhere close to prestige classes supplanting the base. I have tried VERY hard to make at least one interesting build for each PrC, that makes the best of their powers, but most PrCs as very sub-optimal. Even these I dont expect to see supplant the normal classes anytime soon. Though evangelist is disturbing me.


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Aligned Class gives you ALL class features. Spellcasting is very clearly a class feature. I am not seeing where the interpretation comes into anything.


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Regarding the question posted on the OP, no, its not. For the longest time, there was a great void in not enough rules/content for PF, just now, its getting to the point that it feels complete. I'd much rather have a complete game then half a game, or potential for a full system. And as a 3PP, I want even more.


andreww wrote:
Aligned Class gives you ALL class features. Spellcasting is very clearly a class feature. I am not seeing where the interpretation comes into anything.

Yeah, it seems pretty clear now, but it does not make sense that they would have allowed so much for loosing a single level of the base class. I expect this to be "clarified" soon, or for the class to be banned in PFS (where these decisions have some weight).

If one of my players asks about it, I will have to houserule it. I would probably reduce it to merely 9/10 boosts to caster levels. No domain boosts. Maybe limit it to divine casters? I can just imagine any class could benefit, since it's basically a bunch of "free" boosts. So yeah, strong restraints.

Eh, I have yet to see a prestige class in play (despite my own efforts to do so) so I expect most people wont notice this exists.

Scarab Sages

andreww wrote:
Aligned Class gives you ALL class features. Spellcasting is very clearly a class feature. I am not seeing where the interpretation comes into anything.

I can see Evangelist becoming a very popular option for wizards.

Increased hp, bab and addition of a weapon proficiency at the cost a 1 caster level. No loss of saves or other class abilities.

It is also the only PRC I have seen to date that is even remotely acceptable for a summoner.


The evangelist may be OK if you can find some boons which give you enough to justify the loss of the caster level. Spiritual Form is very good for casters, an untyped stacking bonus to your casting stat giving all of your spells another +2DC for minutes per level per day but it only comes online at level 15-16.


Artanthos wrote:
andreww wrote:
Aligned Class gives you ALL class features. Spellcasting is very clearly a class feature. I am not seeing where the interpretation comes into anything.

I can see Evangelist becoming a very popular option for wizards.

Increased hp, bab and addition of a weapon proficiency at the cost a 1 caster level. No loss of saves or other class abilities.

It is also the only PRC I have seen to date that is even remotely acceptable for a summoner.

And again... lets not forget 6+Int Skills. That's a thing. Or that Aasimars can early access it (except in PFS play).

Shadow Lodge

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Thing is, "bloat" is a very relative term. gamer-printer thinks the game barely feels complete. I personally think the game would have been better off without Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Campaign, and the Advanced Race Guide. And Mythic Adventures could have easily been trimmed down to a 64-page softcover, in my less-than-humble opinion. You probably don't even wanna know my opinion on the Advanced Class Guide:

Spoiler:
Multiclassing 2.0 - Because we knew it was f+~#ed up the first time, but we couldn't be bothered to fix it then. Here's yer BLOAT!!!


@Scavion
Yes it depends on the domain, and i wouldn't call the loss of 2 points of fort and will saves a small deal. Anyway i know that the loses aren't huge but the benefits i have seen are minor as well (again i haven't seen the obediances and the boons).

Artanthos wrote:
andreww wrote:
Aligned Class gives you ALL class features. Spellcasting is very clearly a class feature. I am not seeing where the interpretation comes into anything.

I can see Evangelist becoming a very popular option for wizards.

Increased hp, bab and addition of a weapon proficiency at the cost a 1 caster level. No loss of saves or other class abilities.

It is also the only PRC I have seen to date that is even remotely acceptable for a summoner.

Wizards do not gain hit points with this PrC but they don't lose hit points either, and they lose will save but they will gain ref save (which way less useful).


For the company to stay afloat they must publish more content, which is sometimes splat book material.


leo1925 wrote:

@Scavion

Yes it depends on the domain, and i wouldn't call the loss of 2 points of fort and will saves a small deal. Anyway i know that the loses aren't huge but the benefits i have seen are minor as well (again i haven't seen the obediances and the boons).

Artanthos wrote:
andreww wrote:
Aligned Class gives you ALL class features. Spellcasting is very clearly a class feature. I am not seeing where the interpretation comes into anything.

I can see Evangelist becoming a very popular option for wizards.

Increased hp, bab and addition of a weapon proficiency at the cost a 1 caster level. No loss of saves or other class abilities.

It is also the only PRC I have seen to date that is even remotely acceptable for a summoner.

Wizards do not gain hit points with this PrC but they don't lose hit points either, and they lose will save but they will gain ref save (which way less useful).

Uh, unless Wizards have a d8 Hit die all of a sudden or you only use your favored class bonus for HP... Evangelist is a absolutely a HP upgrade for a Wizard.


It's the loss of the FCB.


Kthulhu wrote:

Thing is, "bloat" is a very relative term. gamer-printer thinks the game barely feels complete. I personally think the game would have been better off without Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Campaign, and the Advanced Race Guide. And Mythic Adventures could have easily been trimmed down to a 64-page softcover, in my less-than-humble opinion. You probably don't even wanna know my opinion on the Advanced Class Guide:

** spoiler omitted **

I'd have quite happily gone with a 192-page Core Rulebook. I'm not even kidding.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
andreww wrote:
LazarX wrote:
There isn't a single resurrection spell that I know of that's a domain spell.
Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection are all available by domain. Oddly enough on the resurrection subdomain. Various domains also offer interesting options like Gate and Miracle.

PFS caps at 12th level. so the other two aren't an issue for me.

This may be a call for a revisit on the nature of spell-like abilities. I've always ruled them as requiring any spell component that could not be eliminated by eschew materials, and the restrictions on the spell like abilities of summoned creatures seem to back that up for me.

That clarification would eliminate a lot of SPA cheese.

Dark Archive

I was not happy with the idea if playing only the core rulebook in PFS. I choose not to play it at all unroll the APG material came out and breathed fresh air into the fame. Even today after reading every hardcover. I have not found a single archetype that will encourage me to take more than 2 levels in any of the core classes. I appreciate all the new options released and look forward to more.

If you enjoy playing a core rulebook class, then enjoy it. No need for people to jealously complain about someone who has an extra 5% chance to hit and an extra 3 damage from a splatbook. Unless they are really so petty tbat they have to be the best themself or insist on an absolute equivalence for everything mechanically, so then they can start wining that the dice hate them when they roll anything besides a 10/11, and complain it is nit fair when someone else rolls 12 or better.

Though to be honest, u do feel like PFS is getting more and mire like an MMO with a micro transaction economy where we have to pay nearly every month for a new product to get just one single feat, spell, or class feature out if the whole book that is worth useing since so many of the products are just full a weak options not worth taking/buying.

I also highly wonder if you keep up with the soft cover product if you think this us the point where your accused bloat is finally arriving.


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Tacticslion wrote:
Double ninja all the way acroo~ooss the thread! Oooo~oooo~oooh, yeah, so intense~!

This guy. I like this guy.

I think it's starting to look like a TRIPLE ninja!!

Scarab Sages

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leo1925 wrote:
It's the loss of the FCB.

Is there it against the rules to choose a prestige class for your FCB?

If not, I might be playing a half-elf.

All joking aside. I'm not familiar enough with the ACG classes to judge them. I have no clue if there are any unforeseen interactions that will break the game.

That is what I oppose. Massive power creep and game-breaking interactions. More choices is never bad, barring those two outcomes.


LazarX wrote:
PFS caps at 12th level. so the other two aren't an issue for me.

By my last count you could get at least 3 characters to level 18ish, and that doesn't even include if you were alternating GMing with someone, in which case your looking at roughly 6. I don't know why everyone always says it caps at 12 when there are so many module/AP and even scenario options to bypass that limit.


Artanthos wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
It's the loss of the FCB.

Is there it against the rules to choose a prestige class for your FCB?

If not, I might be playing a half-elf.

All joking aside. I'm not familiar enough with the ACG classes to judge them. I have no clue if there are any unforeseen interactions that will break the game.

That is what I oppose. Massive power creep and game-breaking interactions. More choices is never bad, barring those two outcomes.

I for one have already welcomed the Half-Elf master race.


Anzyr wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
It's the loss of the FCB.

Is there it against the rules to choose a prestige class for your FCB?

If not, I might be playing a half-elf.

All joking aside. I'm not familiar enough with the ACG classes to judge them. I have no clue if there are any unforeseen interactions that will break the game.

That is what I oppose. Massive power creep and game-breaking interactions. More choices is never bad, barring those two outcomes.

I for one have already welcomed the Half-Elf master race.

And Aasimar Scions of Humanity Racial Heritage Half Elves.

Shadow Lodge

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Matt Thomason wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:

Thing is, "bloat" is a very relative term. gamer-printer thinks the game barely feels complete. I personally think the game would have been better off without Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Campaign, and the Advanced Race Guide. And Mythic Adventures could have easily been trimmed down to a 64-page softcover, in my less-than-humble opinion. You probably don't even wanna know my opinion on the Advanced Class Guide:

** spoiler omitted **

I'd have quite happily gone with a 192-page Core Rulebook. I'm not even kidding.

[ insert obligatory pimping of FREE Swords & Wizardry here ]

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
LazarX wrote:
PFS caps at 12th level. so the other two aren't an issue for me.
By my last count you could get at least 3 characters to level 18ish, and that doesn't even include if you were alternating GMing with someone, in which case your looking at roughly 6. I don't know why everyone always says it caps at 12 when there are so many module/AP and even scenario options to bypass that limit.

It's very hard to get groups outside of official scenarios. So while THERE is sanctioned material past level 12, there's not that many people in a position or willing to GM it. There's also the problem of getting high level tables together.


LazarX wrote:
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
LazarX wrote:
PFS caps at 12th level. so the other two aren't an issue for me.
By my last count you could get at least 3 characters to level 18ish, and that doesn't even include if you were alternating GMing with someone, in which case your looking at roughly 6. I don't know why everyone always says it caps at 12 when there are so many module/AP and even scenario options to bypass that limit.
It's very hard to get groups outside of official scenarios. So while THERE is sanctioned material past level 12, there's not that many people in a position or willing to GM it. There's also the problem of getting high level tables together.

Just to compare the differences between one PF person and another, I have not personally met anyone who plays PFS (or as you word it, official scenarios and sanctioned materials), and I know many people who play PF, all those I am familiar, including my own group only plays homebrew, or other 'non-official', unsanctioned material.

Of course many in this forum do as you do, so I know they are out there, but in my area, the concept of official/sanctioned does not exist, or at least such players are about as real to me, as a goblin (hint: fictional).

Scarab Sages

gamer-printer wrote:
Of course many in this forum do as you do, so I know they are out there, but in my area, the concept of official/sanctioned does not exist, or at least such players are about as real to me, as a goblin (hint: fictional).

All you need for sanctioned PFS is 4 people (including the GM) willing to play by PFS rules and report the scenarios.


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I thought one of the stated design goals of Pathfinder was that the bloat never had to go away?


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LoneKnave wrote:
I thought one of the stated design goals of Pathfinder was that the bloat never had to go away?

So much this. I try to use as much 3.5 and 3.0 and d20 material as possible.


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Jiggy wrote:
Ipslore the Red wrote:
From what I have seen of the book, namely Walter's guide to it, it seems...
Ipslore the Red wrote:
Are you basing your guess on firsthand knowledge of the book? If not, you're not relevant.

So, is the OP still posting, or is he still reeling from his self-inflicted burn? Because this was pretty great.


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Complaining about bloat and complaining about balance are two completely different issues.

Especially when you're bringing up 3.5 here, splatbooks were the only thing that kept martials even remotely relevant in 3.5.


Artanthos wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
It's the loss of the FCB.

Is there it against the rules to choose a prestige class for your FCB?

If not, I might be playing a half-elf.

All joking aside. I'm not familiar enough with the ACG classes to judge them. I have no clue if there are any unforeseen interactions that will break the game.

That is what I oppose. Massive power creep and game-breaking interactions. More choices is never bad, barring those two outcomes.

I am pretty sure you can't chose a PrC as your favored class.


PRD wrote:

Favored Class

Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Prestige Classes) can never be a favored class.


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Just to respond to the subject of the OP. No, I don't think so. There is a different feel to the approach Paizo has developed. It feels less like bloat and more like Interesting options. With that said, there has never been an RPG that did not require a DM to shape their campaign for their particular desired approach.

Liberty's Edge

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I think with threads like these it's always implied by either the op and other posters that one is somehow compelled and forced to buy new material. Truly no is. I am beginning to dislike the the player companions. Too much fluff not enough crunch for my tastes. I'm certainly not forced to buy them. I will allow a player to take a material from the companions if he buys and lends me the book. Or sends a link to me from the SRD. More often than not players want to blame Paizo for their poor spending habits. Why should Paizo be blamed because gamers can control themselves when it comes to newer products.


memorax wrote:
I think with threads like these it's always implied by either the op and other posters that one is somehow compelled and forced to buy new material. Truly no is. I am beginning to dislike the the player companions. Too much fluff not enough crunch for my tastes. I'm certainly not forced to buy them. I will allow a player to take a material from the companions if he buys and lends me the book. Or sends a link to me from the SRD. More often than not players want to blame Paizo for their poor spending habits. Why should Paizo be blamed because gamers can control themselves when it comes to newer products.

Oh, definitely. In my previous post in this thread, I mentioned I thought the game was much more complete now. That said, I still haven't gotten the race guide nor Mythic, as I don't need either in my game. So while being somewhat inclusive of Paizo material, doesn't mean I obtain/use all Paizo material.

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