Demilich vs. Eidolon


Rules Questions


So the summoner in the group I am dungeonmastering developed a habbit. The group lets his eidolon do most of the dirty work and the send this beast in to test the defenses of most enemies - and if the eidolon dies he simply summon it again.

Last session they encountered a demilich (in a published adventure path) and now we have a problem. The demilich successfully used his ability Devour Soul on the eidolon. Without the eidolon the group hastily retreated and now the demilich used the stored soul to repair itself.

What happens now exactly to the summoner or the eidolon? Can the summoner now create a new eidolon from the scratch? Or is the eidolon now dead and he can simply conjure it again?

Scarab Sages

The summoner is bound to a particular eidolon, and his has effectively been removed from play. He cannot summon a different one. Actions have consequences.

I don't think there's anything RAW, but my DM ruling would be that the summoner has some idea of what happened (he shares senses if I recall), so the party should in character know what happened. He would have partially experienced the consumption of that soul. Vicious, nightmare inducing stuff.

And I'd further say that you have one of two courses of action: rule that killing the demilich releases any souls that were used this way (which may or may not be strictly RAW, but is a good story hook), or rule that they cannot. If they cannot, create a side story in which the summoner can win another eidolon to his cause. Given the circumstances and the story background behind the connection between summoner and eidolon, I would not make it just a *shrug* new eidolon shows up next play session.

Could be fun excursion to another plane, proving the rightness of the party's cause ... or further hook: the demilich has gained a taste for the particular power of eidolon souls, and he's coming for all of them. So the party can get another eidolon by forming a pact to become the guardians of these creatures.

Dunno, just some ideas in order to make this a story opportunity rather than a strict look-up-the-rule situation.


Personally I would have had the summoner send the Eidolon home as a standard action the moment it got trapped.


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I don't see why this shouldn't be treated like any other soul...
Need a miracle or wish.
Actions and consequences and all that.
EDIT: What would you do if it was the party's fighter who had his soul vacuumed up? Do that.


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What Cardinal said (though also what Duiker said).

The summoner can simply retired, a broken man, whose closest friend has been stripped out of existence itself.

Souls:
Once a long, long time ago...
All people had four legs and two heads,
and then the Gods threw down thunderbolts
and split everyone into two
each have then two legs and one head
but the separation left both sides
with a desperate yearning to be reunited
because they each shared the same soul
and ever since then, all people
spend their lives searching..
for the other half of their soul..."

-Gabrielle the Bard, circa 50 BCE


It is a death affect. When an Eidolon dies it should not be available until the next day, and the eidolon is not a real creature, and it has no soul. According to the flavor of the class it is a representation of a more powerful creature, similar to how summon monsters spells don't kill the actual monster, but just send them away when they are defeated.

From the rulebook
....When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points.

Edit:Basically the eidolon was slain, but the player can not get it back until the next day unless he uses the summon eidolon spell, and it will likely die again. If I was the demilich and attacked by two of these things I am guessing it is smart enough to know someone is sending them, and it should go to "investigate".


Wind Chime wrote:

Personally I would have had the summoner send the Eidolon home as a standard action the moment it got trapped.

You know what trapped mean? ;)

I don´t think thats possible in this situation.
When the eidolon would be hold, paralyzed or something yes. No problem. But trapped in a soul gem. No.

I already suggestet to use wish or something (the summoner is level 15 after all - so it should not too hard to get his hands on). Last session he played only with the standard summon monster spells around. But I think I will give him a chance to get his hands on a scroll or something in one of the next sessions.

As long a he doen´t try the old trick of summoning a efreet with planar binding and trying to force him with cha-checks to cast wish for him...


wraithstrike wrote:

It is a death affect. When an Eidolon dies it should not be available until the next day, and the eidolon is not a real creature, and it has no soul. According to the flavor of the class it is a representation of a more powerful creature, similar to how summon monsters spells don't kill the actual monster, but just send them away when they are defeated.

From the rulebook
....When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points.

Edit:Basically the eidolon was slain, but the player can not get it back until the next day unless he uses the summon eidolon spell, and it will likely die again. If I was the demilich and attacked by two of these things I am guessing it is smart enough to know someone is sending them, and it should go to "investigate".

Body and soul of an outsider are one and the same. (see outsiders)


I'd go with standard rules for the ability the demilich used. Note the existence of this monster, the unfettered eidolon.

Silver Crusade

I'd allow him to use the in-game fixes suggested before in this thread. Also, I'd allow him to call a brand new eidolon next time he levelled up.


Patrick Kropp wrote:

You know what trapped mean? ;)

I don´t think thats possible in this situation.
When the eidolon would be hold, paralyzed or something yes. No problem. But trapped in a soul gem. No.

Sounds like your already set on your own plan.


Patrick Kropp wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

It is a death affect. When an Eidolon dies it should not be available until the next day, and the eidolon is not a real creature, and it has no soul. According to the flavor of the class it is a representation of a more powerful creature, similar to how summon monsters spells don't kill the actual monster, but just send them away when they are defeated.

From the rulebook
....When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points.

Edit:Basically the eidolon was slain, but the player can not get it back until the next day unless he uses the summon eidolon spell, and it will likely die again. If I was the demilich and attacked by two of these things I am guessing it is smart enough to know someone is sending them, and it should go to "investigate".

Body and soul of an outsider are one and the same. (see outsiders)

I know, but the eidolon is not subject to the normal rules since slain outsiders don't automatically come back the next day with half hp. It seems to be designed to insure the eidolon is not perma-lost.

Now if the demlich had not drained(consumed) the soul then the eidolon would not be slain, and it would be unavailable until the demilich was defeated so as the GM, if this happens again, just keep the eidolon trapped so the party has to come rescue it. :)

I think a demilich would be smart enough to do this, and it is better to face a party without an eidolon, than to face a party with an eidolon.


Just to be sure you get what I am saying, once the soul is consumed it is no longer trapped.


MrSin wrote:
Patrick Kropp wrote:

You know what trapped mean? ;)

I don´t think thats possible in this situation.
When the eidolon would be hold, paralyzed or something yes. No problem. But trapped in a soul gem. No.
Sounds like your already set on your own plan.

Just asking how others see this situation and how the rules apply in this situation.

In the long run I won´t take the eidolon away forever. would be too harsh. i mean it is the main class feature.


wraithstrike wrote:
Just to be sure you get what I am saying, once the soul is consumed it is no longer trapped.

Thats your interpretation. obviously some people (including me) see this otherwise. My player made the same assumption as you.

The soul (and body in case of outsider) is trapped in the gem. The soul is devoured - not just killed because of hitpoints or something.

So i ruled: Only a wish or miracle can restore the soul of the eidolon. Thereafter it can be summoned as normal again.

And I am aware of the design of the Eidolon (perma death would mean loss of the main class feature forever). But I think this is one of the few ways a summoner could lost his pet forever. Lest he gets his hands on wish...


Well it seems you have made your decision. :)


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Summoner falls...?


wraithstrike wrote:
Well it seems you have made your decision. :)

I like your discussion style. :)

Showing respect to others decisions even if you would rule otherwise!

Another question on the demilich:

Is the Greater Bestow Curse ability really needs a touch?
With 0 reach that makes it an really awfull option for the demilich and near useless!


Yes, the greater bestow curse requires a touch attack because it is an SLA and therefore functions like the spell does. I guess the idea is that the DR 20 means the demilich can take the hit from the attack of opportunity.

Dark Archive

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Actually, the Eidolon should be on another plane, as the Summoner can only summon an aspect of an Eidolon. Therefore the aspect that the Summoner would summon can't be a viable target for the Devour Soul ability, or in other words, you can't destroy an Eidolon by devouring his aspect.
The same goes for pretty much any summoned creature.

Now basically, the still alive Eidolon who is still on another plane could still provide an aspect to the Summoner he has a bond with. It might be the same aspect, or it might be something else entirely. (Including skills and feats) Alternatively, the bond might be broken, and the Summoner has to find another Eidolon to bond with. (Sidequest!)


I thought I had read that aspect idea, but when I tried to find it for this thread, my search-fu failed.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Just to be sure you get what I am saying, once the soul is consumed it is no longer trapped.

What happen if a eidolon is drained to 0 constitution? The situation seem similar. A kind of damage that the eidolon will not recover and that can't be cured as the eidolon body isn't present on this plane.

found it in the FAQ about the syntethist:

FAQ wrote:
Remember also that the eidolon does not heal naturally. Just like hit point damage, any ability damage or drain the eidolon has persists between when it is banished/dismissed/killed and when it is resummoned. The exception is an eidolon killed by Con damage (which, if resummoned, would still be at 0 Con and immediately die and vanish); in this situation, the resummoned eidolon is cured of 1 point of ability damage or drain so the amount of damage or drain is 1 less than its actual Constitution score, allowing it to live.

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