New Rule Proposal: Consumable Reimbursement


Pathfinder Society

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***** ⦵⦵⦵

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Hmmm does this loophole work

Please note that players can (and are encouraged to) share or pool their resources in order to bring a dead party member back to life.

You could read that as allowing the pool for the breath of life scroll.

*****

Good point, BNW... I would rather see a bit more flexibility shown there for life-threatening conditions, than to see consumables suddenly become a pooled resource.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

GM Lamplighter wrote:
That's not where the problem is. The problem is when players use the proosed rule to pair up and have 1 PC's gold pay for everything a second PC needs, so that the second PC can spend their gold on being a combat monster.

1) You can already do this. My wizard buys potions and scrolls by the boatload, and either hands them to the fighter to use or casts the spell on him. Heck, I can even throw all of my Wizards money into a magic sword and then hand that to the fighter for the scenario.

2) Normal consumable use isn't usually that big of a factor in a characters wealth by level.

Quote:
Really, the best solution is for characters to be prepared on their own, with their own consumables, just like we already do with healing wands.

I think this really only matters with the breath of life scroll or the breath of life gloves. They're the only thing that A) pretty much HAS to benefit a player other than the one that bought it and B) Is a large enough chunk of cash for players to worry about.

Shadow Lodge ****

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Hmmm does this loophole work

Please note that players can (and are encouraged to) share or pool their resources in order to bring a dead party member back to life.

You could read that as allowing the pool for the breath of life scroll.

PFSGtOP:

Conditions, Death, and Expendables:
If a PC cannot be raised from the dead during or immediately after the scenario in which he died, that PC is dead and removed from play. In this instance, the GM reports that the character in question died during the course of play on the tracking sheet provided with the scenario and on the character’s Chronicle for that scenario, and the player will need to make a new 1st-level character to continue play in Pathfinder Society. Please note that players can (and are encouraged to) share or pool their resources in order to bring a dead party member back to life. They may not, however, pool Prestige Points to do so, even if they’re from the same faction. PCs can also sell off gear, including the dead character’s gear, at 50% of its listed value to raise money to purchase a spell that will return their slain ally from the dead, though they can only do so in a settlement
and they cannot sell off any items found during the current scenario that they haven’t purchased. PCs who die during a scenario and are raised receive full XP for that scenario, so long as they completed at least three encounters.
...
Purchasing Equipment and Spells
In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, you may never buy items from, sell items to, or trade items with another player. You may, however, allow another player to borrow an item for the duration of a scenario. You are also permitted to spend your character’s gold to help a party member purchase spellcasting services such as raise dead or remove disease.

Note that the "Please note that players can (and are encouraged to) share or pool their resources in order to bring a dead party member back to life", only applies a.) after a character has dies, and b.) only works within the single scenario that they died in.

So one character could buy the Scroll of BoL beforehand and use it, (at cost to themselves alone) or after a character dies, could pool resources and sell of that characters gear to purchase a Scroll or casting of BoL (at which point it would be worthless) or other Rez, but not before. If purchased before hand, it is at cost to one player only, who can not sell or trade it to another at all, but can let it be used on them.

Shadow Lodge *

While I agree that it is best for all players to be prepared, I don't agree that that is a feasible thing to expect from all characters. For example my dumb as rocks barbarian only carries around potions of fly because he was up against flying opponents that he couldn't hit. I would never expect him to purchase flying potions if he had never been up against those opponents. He would never have picked up a cure wand if he hadn't seen first hand how those silly little sticks made him and his allies feel better. he only has a ring of feather fall because he saw one of his companions fall to her death and doesn't want that to happen to him. However, my character who I am building to be the best pathfinder he can will invest in those as soon as he has enough money, just so he'll be prepared should the situation arise. Not all characters have the same level of knowledge. Being hit with something you're not prepared for helps you be prepared for the future, however, in the spirit of limiting metagaming, I feel that experience should not necessarily transfer between characters. You should be prepared, but not to the extent that all of your characters are exactly the same in terms of gear. If your character is dumb as rocks and hasn't fought a flying opponent he probably should not have a potion of fly. However, if someone else in the party decides to share theirs and you decide even though you're kind of stupid that that was a lot more fun, and that you should pay them back and then buy your own potions of fly so you can do that again, then that's what should happen.

Shadow Lodge *

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I also understand that not all players will use it as a learning experience and continue to not get the necessary items, but if that happens the and both players end up at the same table again and the situation repeats itself, the giving player has the option of not giving him the item.

Grand Lodge *****

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I just wanted to add my +1 in favour of such an addition to the rule.

1) there is no wealth transfer that increases the wealth of a character as it is reimbursement for something that got used up
2) the GM is explicitly worded into it to avoid any shenanigans should someone figure out a loophole to use it to do true wealth control

I did hear concern here but I feel the advantages to repay for certain consumables outweighs the disadvantages.

*

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I don't tend to spend a lot on consumables, I play a lot of casters and I have a few go to consumables that make all their lists just to get me through in a pinch. I don't even buy bullets for my gunslinger (caster dip for Abundant Ammunition.) However, I would be inclined to buy a few more party friendly consumables under the proposed setup. Most of my characters have gold sitting on them, I just view consumables as a lost resource and don't like to buy them. If I end up dying where a consumable would have saved me, I am cool with it, but there are only about 5 players that I would seriously consider paying for their resurrection. IF I could put my excess gold into a contingency account (read: Breath of Life Scroll or some other similar consumable) that others could replenish when used, I would be happy to do so.

I don't see it as a huge issue of people fighting about who pays for it. Now if someone is alive prior to using the consumable, all you have to do is ask if they would like to use yours and replace it at the end of the scenario. If you do not have a chance to ask them this, I see very few different ways this could play out.

Scenario 1
Bill dies.
Betty casts BoL from her scroll.
Betty: Did you want to replace the scroll I used earlier to keep you alive?
Bill: Yes I can do that! Thank you so much. Lets hug it out and I will promise not to touch you inappropriately while we do.

Scenario 2
Chris dies.
Betty casts BoL from her scroll.
Betty: Did you want to replace the scroll I used earlier to keep you alive?
Chris: Hell no. I didn't ask you to cast it on me, that is on you.
Betty: Let it be known that the asshattery is strong in Chris, he does not like to reciprocate the things that people do for him.
No one ever gives Chris anything again.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

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Sitri wrote:
Betty: Let it be known that the asshattery is strong in Chris, he does not like to reciprocate the things that people do for him.

We need that as a DM sticker...

Grand Lodge ****

Sitri wrote:


Scenario 2
Chris dies.
Betty casts BoL from her scroll.
Betty: Did you want to replace the scroll I used earlier to keep you alive?
Chris: Hell no. I didn't ask you to cast it on me, that is on you.
Betty: Let it be known that the asshattery is strong in Chris, he does not like to reciprocate the things that people do for him.
No one ever gives Chris anything again.

This is great and all but as an organiser, I don't want my local community facebook wall or organising email chains devolving into Betty telling everyone in the community that Chris is an ungrateful asshat. If there can be a way that Chris knows ahead of time that he needs to keep his asshat tendencies in check and always pay back the cleric/oracle for life saving magic, that'd be a better system.

*

I don't blame you for not wanting negativity on your organizing page. I was thinking more word of mouth. In my area word of mouth is pretty strong.

A more preemptive measure would be during the mission briefing to have Betty tell everyone she hasn't played with before "I have a couple of scrolls of Life that I can use on people when they drop. Is there anyone here that would not be willing to replace these scrolls if I needed to use one on you?"

Liberty's Edge

GM Lamplighter wrote:

...

Really, the best solution is for characters to be prepared on their own, with their own consumables, just like we already do with healing wands. Yes, it means you have to spend money in anticipation, rather than just keeping some gold in reserve and being able to count on others to provide whatever you might need that day. That way wealth transfer can't be abused, and players need to be prepared.

To me, the issue is that people still don't.

There are a few martial types at our local who buy nothing other than a potion of cure serious wounds then they save everything else is saved for the supper mondo weapon of uber mightiness. They just assume everyone else will heal them, buff them to increase their AC, dispel mind affects, etc... They have even said, "Just keep me alive and I will kill everything for you." Admittedly, when they get to attack they do take things down amazingly quickly.
So all of us are left with the choice to let them die or save them. The one risks a mission fail since we don't have our melee person as well as us looking like jack-holes for not helping our 'teammate.' The other has us all just being supporting second fiddle to a guy that is woefully unprepared as well as spending our money while he spends nothing. I really don't like either of those choices.
There a few guys that I'm thinking about just leaving the table when they sit down. Though, I don't like doing that either. Then I'm leaving the group with fewer people than they expected to run with. I will probably use work as an excuse to leave. But if they ever figure out why I'm really doing it, then I am an antisocial jerk.
If, I'm going to look like a jerk no matter what, I guess I'm leaning toward letting him die and see if he learns.

On the other hand we have quite a few people (maybe a fourth) that are not that extreme but still won’t buy any consumables. Many of them won’t even buy a wand of cure light wounds. They certainly aren’t going to buy potions/scrolls of cure disease, remove blindness, neutralize poison, restoration, break enchantment, etc… They at least buy armor, cloaks, rings, and other things to try and keep from needing conditions removed. But they still can roll a 1 need something. They too just assume someone else will take care of it for them. Like I said earlier, if it doesn’t seem really likely to cause a mission failure, I sometimes tell these guys I don’t have whatever they need.

The majority of the people are fairly well prepared. If someone has a cure disease and a neutralize poison but doesn’t yet have a remove blindness, I don’t mind helping them out. They are making an effort and no one can be prepared for absolutely everything.

Though I'm not sure I like the proposed rule changes either. I'm not sure what a good solution is.

Also, word of mouth doesn't seem to be having much effect in my local. I see a lot of long faces when certain people sit down at a table, but as far as I can tell, no one is saying anything about it.


2 Quick Points to make on this:

1) I'm a little afraid now that "I" am that guy who doesn't come prepared enough. In my case though its not that I don't "WANT" to be prepared, its that I am still relatively new to PFS (EDIT: And Pathfinder in general), and a lot of games end with me going "wow gonna have to start carrying one of THOSE potions/scrolls/etc around"

2) My biggest worry with this new rule is already coming true on the forums, people are already talking about "word of mouth" getting around that player X wouldn't repay player Y. Yet people think that this would be a "voluntary" system. Its not voluntary if the players who don't contribute are socially tarred and feathered!

At least the way it is now, if you decide a player is hogging resources and being a jerk you tell them in game (or as a player) that you wont waste resources on them and they should be more prepared. At least that's up-front about it, you aren't playing with them, healing them, then after the game telling people behind their backs they are a jerk.

After all, it could turn out that they werent prepared for a reason, at least during the game they could explain "look im sorry im new to this", or "look sorry i would have bought a potion but i just blew all my gold in the last game paying for a teammates resurrection". Whereas if its "voluntary" at the end of the game they might just say "no" and forget to mention why they can't afford it.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

To be fair, on a martial you always seem to feel a little gold starved. I'm always planning the next ac increase, weapon increase (because DR is annoying), or cloak of resistance buy because that's whats going to keep me alive. Budgeting for something that MIGHT come in handy or might sit at the bottom of my backpack for a year seems less attractive.

On a caster sometimes i'm scratching my head going "Huh, when did i save up 10k gold...."


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

To be fair, on a martial you always seem to feel a little gold starved. I'm always planning the next ac increase, weapon increase (because DR is annoying), or cloak of resistance buy because that's whats going to keep me alive. Budgeting for something that MIGHT come in handy or might sit at the bottom of my backpack for a year seems less attractive.

On a caster sometimes i'm scratching my head going "Huh, when did i save up 10k gold...."

Ha, just imagining this in-character.

Wizard stops after an hours march complaining of sore feet. Pulls off socks and a pile of gems falls out. "Oh I forgot about those things"

:D

Liberty's Edge

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CathalFM wrote:

2 Quick Points to make on this:

1) I'm a little afraid now that "I" am that guy who doesn't come prepared enough. In my case though its not that I don't "WANT" to be prepared, its that I am still relatively new to PFS (EDIT: And Pathfinder in general), and a lot of games end with me going "wow gonna have to start carrying one of THOSE potions/scrolls/etc around"
...

Please, do NOT be even slightly worried about this.

We can nearly always tell who is still kinda new to the game. I have no problem with people that are still learning. I have no problem with the guy who tried to prepare but guessed wrong (got neutralize poison but didn't get remove blindness). I have no problem with the guy that didn't even know X was available/ever needed.

My problem is with the experienced player that knows those items are available and needed, but intentionally chooses to not get them because he just assumes someone else will shoulder the cost and he can save his money.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
To be fair, on a martial you always seem to feel a little gold starved. I'm always planning the next ac increase, weapon increase (because DR is annoying), or cloak of resistance buy because that's whats going to keep me alive. Budgeting for something that MIGHT come in handy or might sit at the bottom of my backpack for a year seems less attractive. ...

I would think being blind, poisoned, diseased, or dead would be more annoying.

My casters always have to buy stuff also. They are even squishier and have to really concentrate on defensive things. I want my spells to succeed and accomplish stuff so I need to buy spells for book, rods, and headbands to support that.

My gish-ish type characters have to buy martial stuff and caster stuff.

I still think it is logical and reasonable to but some of those "Oh-s%!t" items.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
... On a caster sometimes i'm scratching my head going "Huh, when did i save up 10k gold...."

I don't think I've ever had that happen with any character in any game. I always have something I don't have enough money to buy yet. =)

****

Daedalaman wrote:
While I agree that it is best for all players to be prepared, I don't agree that that is a feasible thing to expect from all characters. For example my dumb as rocks barbarian only carries around potions of fly because he was up against flying opponents that he couldn't hit. I would never expect him to purchase flying potions if he had never been up against those opponents.

I don't have a problem with this as long as it doesn't become a rationalization for relying on others for consumables:

ANT (Barbarian 7): "ME CAN'T REACH UGLY SING-SONG BIRD LADY"
Grasshopper (Fighter 5/Vending Machine 1/Door Mat 1): You don't have a potion of Fly?
ANT: He's not really smart enough to buy one ahead of time. He just sinks all his gold into his axe.
ANT: Okay... "I draw a potion of Fly from my Handy Haversack and hand it to--"
Grasshopper: "--K THX BYE WEEEEEEEEE! *CHOP* *CHOP* *CHOP* ALL DONE!"

***** ⦵⦵⦵

Lets see what you need as a martial to be fully stocked

Potion of remove blindness 750
Wand of CLW/Infernal Healing 750
Potion of fly 750
Breath of life scroll 1125
Potion of remove disease 750
Potion of neutralize poison 750

=4875 .... or roughly half your wealth at level 5.

The caster can do that at roughly half cost with scrolls.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

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ANT: He's not really smart enough to buy one ahead of time. He just sinks all his gold into his axe.

Fox: Oh good. Then he's not smart enough to know how much this is going to hurt. Telekinetic charge....

Shadow Lodge ****

Potion of remove blindness 750 2PP
Wand of CLW/Infernal Healing 750 2PP
Potion of fly 750 2PP
Breath of life scroll 1125
Potion of remove disease 750 2PP
Potion of neutralize poison 750 2PP

I wouldn't buy a BoL scroll until L7...and even then, it's not really that practical (let's avoid extended discussion on spring loaded wrist sheathes).

Depending on your luck with faction missions, late L4 or L5 is when you've banked your 16 PP for a raise and can drop the rest on a consumables.


Sammy T wrote:

Potion of remove blindness 750 2PP

Wand of CLW/Infernal Healing 750 2PP
Potion of fly 750 2PP
Breath of life scroll 1125
Potion of remove disease 750 2PP
Potion of neutralize poison 750 2PP

I wouldn't buy a BoL scroll until L7...and even then, it's not really that practical (let's avoid extended discussion on spring loaded wrist sheathes).

Depending on your luck with faction missions, late L4 or L5 is when you've banked your 16 PP for a raise and can drop the rest on a consumables.

And still the best investment is the first 2PP should be a wand of CLW, so you dont NEED that raise dead :D

***** ⦵⦵⦵

Lavode wrote:
I would think being blind, poisoned, diseased, or dead would be more annoying.

Right, but which one? I MIGHT fight something in the next adventure that causes blindness, or poisons me, or has disease. I WILL find something that i need to swing a sword at, swings at me, or makes me roll a save.

There's too many ways to get hurt. The best defense becomes a good offense.

The Exchange *****

Troubled Visiting Player: "Hay, how come you guys just hand Jo's Barbarian expensive stuff to use like that? Why do you even invite him to the game?"
Old Hand: "Jo brings the beer and pizza to the game."
T.V.P.: "Oohhh! O.K. Hay Jo, you doing ok for HP?"

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Potion of remove blindness 750

...

The caster can do that at roughly half cost with scrolls.

Let's hope there is someone else who can use it to remove his blindness then. :)

*****

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Lets see what you need as a martial to be fully stocked

Potion of remove blindness 750
Wand of CLW/Infernal Healing 750
Potion of fly 750
Breath of life scroll 1125
Potion of remove disease 750
Potion of neutralize poison 750

=4875 .... or roughly half your wealth at level 5.

The caster can do that at roughly half cost with scrolls.

Diseases rarely work fast enough that you absolutely must deal with them there and then. Even if they do you have to make a CL check which is not a great idea with such a low CL on a potion. Neutralize Poison has the same issue. Delay Poison may well be better and cheaper and it lasts for 3 hours. I am also not sure Neutralize can even be a potion as a level 4 spell.

Breath of Life scrolls for me are very iffy. They are subject to so much table variation about whether or not they work with the spring loaded wrist sheath. If they dont then they are an almost complete waste of time unless you are willing to be tethered to your cleric.

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lavode wrote:
I would think being blind, poisoned, diseased, or dead would be more annoying.

Right, but which one? I MIGHT fight something in the next adventure that causes blindness, or poisons me, or has disease. I WILL find something that i need to swing a sword at, swings at me, or makes me roll a save.

There's too many ways to get hurt. The best defense becomes a good offense.

To a certain extent I agree with you.

The M1 tank has one of the very best weapon systems to have ever existed.
However it still has armor to protect it, powerful engines to get where it needs to go, air filters/snorkel systems, shocks to function on rough terrain, tracks to move in difficult terrain, smoke systems, flair systems, ECM, radio, air conditioning, radiation shielding, food and water storage, etc... It doesn't rely on one everyone around to provide everything that is not the gun.
(Yes, major work will still require the wrecker and shop time. But the effort is there to provide what is possible within the vehicle.)

I usually think 1 less plus on the sword will usually pay for a whole pile of consumables that are reasonable at your level. I'm not sure I have ever seen a single plus on a single weapon make or break your survival. A few consumables will often make or break your survival.

But I can deal with Jimmy-Joe-Bob's disagreement. If JJB wants to roll the long odds and assume he will always get a high initiative and never roll a low save on something dangerous, that is his choice.
But then why should I use my consumables that I bought (staying at a +2 headband instead of a +4) to save him? It seems to be JJB's expectation that I bought all that stuff just in case he might need it.

*****

I would also add a Potion of Gaseous Form for most casters. If you dont have a SU method of escaping from a grapple it may well be your best method of doing so.

I would also be buying all of this stuff with PP once I had enough to ensure a res if I needed one.

***** ⦵⦵⦵

Sammy T wrote:

Potion of remove blindness 750 2PP

Wand of CLW/Infernal Healing 750 2PP
Potion of fly 750 2PP
Breath of life scroll 1125
Potion of remove disease 750 2PP
Potion of neutralize poison 750 2PP

I wouldn't buy a BoL scroll until L7...and even then, it's not really that practical (let's avoid extended discussion on spring loaded wrist sheathes).

Depending on your luck with faction missions, late L4 or L5 is when you've banked your 16 PP for a raise and can drop the rest on a consumables.

You should also save 5 for body recovery.

Shadow Lodge ****

Nah, you gotta live dangerously recklessly.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sammy T wrote:

Potion of remove blindness 750 2PP

Wand of CLW/Infernal Healing 750 2PP
Potion of fly 750 2PP
Breath of life scroll 1125
Potion of remove disease 750 2PP
Potion of neutralize poison 750 2PP

I wouldn't buy a BoL scroll until L7...and even then, it's not really that practical (let's avoid extended discussion on spring loaded wrist sheathes).

Depending on your luck with faction missions, late L4 or L5 is when you've banked your 16 PP for a raise and can drop the rest on a consumables.

You should also save 5 for body recovery.

Plus another 8 for the Restorations to get rid of the 2 permanent negative levels from Raise Dead.

Grand Lodge ****

trollbill wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Sammy T wrote:

Potion of remove blindness 750 2PP

Wand of CLW/Infernal Healing 750 2PP
Potion of fly 750 2PP
Breath of life scroll 1125
Potion of remove disease 750 2PP
Potion of neutralize poison 750 2PP

I wouldn't buy a BoL scroll until L7...and even then, it's not really that practical (let's avoid extended discussion on spring loaded wrist sheathes).

Depending on your luck with faction missions, late L4 or L5 is when you've banked your 16 PP for a raise and can drop the rest on a consumables.

You should also save 5 for body recovery.

Plus another 8 for the Restorations to get rid of the 2 permanent negative levels from Raise Dead.

You don't have to do that immediately, though.

***

At my high school they removed voluntary prayer time because those that did not participate were activtyl and harshly picked on.

I believe the same thing would happen here.


Finlanderboy wrote:

At my high school they removed voluntary prayer time because those that did not participate were activtyl and harshly picked on.

I believe the same thing would happen here.

Wow, I thought it would be those who did participate. I would expect teasing for those that did here in the U.K. But I do think its a solid point sadly.

Shadow Lodge ****

I was curious, too?

*** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Ocala aka Zantumal

My opinion - for whatever it is worth - I am not in favor of a ruling for consumables (pre-purchased and on a character sheet) to be reimbursed by the rest of the party. Having the forethought to purchase a consumable during the course of a scenario and it being used and thus split the cost is acceptable.

Having a consumable which is pre-purchased be reimbursed essentially breaks the definition of what a consumable is. A one time use thing purchased by a single player. It would be abused to the point that a character could effectively pay for an item once at a set cost (buying a permanent weapon if you will) and be able to use it in perpetuity but having others pay for it then on (renting your weapon). If we are going that route, then why haven't we created a rule to start a recycling program on Goralon for all the empty potion bottles, vials, and scroll. "I used your nice potion of Fly that I bought from your stall last week, I'd like my 5 copper pieces back for recycling."

If you want to have free replacement of consumables, use the ones printed on the chronicle sheet that are found during the course of the scenario. If something is required for the success of the mission, it is generally found on the chronicle sheet. Anything beyond that just makes it "easier" but I wouldn't classify as required.

*

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Finlanderboy wrote:

At my high school they removed voluntary prayer time because those that did not participate were activtyl and harshly picked on.

I believe the same thing would happen here.

The difference being those not praying have no way of removing themselves from the situation other than lying and possibly violating their own morals. (It is also worth mentioning that it is using government money to at best create a waste of time for many people and at worst create unconstitutional pressure isn't a fair comparison to what we are talking about here.)

If a person doesn't want to pay someone back for a consumable, all they have to do is not accept it in the first place.

*

Sitri wrote:
If a person doesn't want to pay someone back for a consumable, all they have to do is not accept it in the first place.

My understanding is that proposed rule change is not to allow a pay back in gold, but a replacement of the consumed item. Nor is the proposed rule a mandatory replacement. If someone doesn't want to replace an item, they don't have to. But the rule would give the player the option.

*

Correct. For many of us, we have been operating under the assumption you cannot pay someone back, even in item replacement. However, I do like the interpretation that Mark came up with earlier that would mean you could do this under the current rules. I wouldn't be surprised if a GM shot it down though.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Andrei Buters wrote:
Sitri wrote:


Scenario 2
Chris dies.
Betty casts BoL from her scroll.
Betty: Did you want to replace the scroll I used earlier to keep you alive?
Chris: Hell no. I didn't ask you to cast it on me, that is on you.
Betty: Let it be known that the asshattery is strong in Chris, he does not like to reciprocate the things that people do for him.
No one ever gives Chris anything again.
This is great and all but as an organiser, I don't want my local community facebook wall or organising email chains devolving into Betty telling everyone in the community that Chris is an ungrateful asshat. If there can be a way that Chris knows ahead of time that he needs to keep his asshat tendencies in check and always pay back the cleric/oracle for life saving magic, that'd be a better system.
Sitri wrote:

I don't blame you for not wanting negativity on your organizing page. I was thinking more word of mouth. In my area word of mouth is pretty strong.

A more preemptive measure would be during the mission briefing to have Betty tell everyone she hasn't played with before "I have a couple of scrolls of Life that I can use on people when they drop. Is there anyone here that would not be willing to replace these scrolls if I needed to use one on you?"

I think some of us has already seen where that king of facebook posts/word of mouth champaign will end:

Side A (Betty): Chirs is an asshat, he hasn't paid up the scroll of BoL I used on his character.

Side B (Chirs): Betty is an asshat, my character died saving her character ass and now she is asking me to pay her.

And neither side will ever be convinced that the other guy position as any basis.

You really want that kind of forum fight of slander campaign?

My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine wrote:

....

There are a few martial types at our local who buy nothing other than a potion of cure serious wounds then they save everything else is saved for the supper mondo weapon of uber mightiness. They just assume everyone else will heal them, buff them to increase their AC, dispel mind affects, etc... They have even said, "Just keep me alive and I will kill everything for you." Admittedly, when they get to attack they do take things down amazingly quickly.
So all of us are left with the choice to let them die or save them. The one risks a mission fail since we don't have our melee person as well as us looking like jack-holes for not helping our 'teammate.' The other has us all just being supporting second fiddle to a guy that is woefully unprepared as well as spending our money while he spends nothing. I really don't like either of those choices.
There a few guys that I'm thinking about just leaving the table when they sit down. Though, I don't like doing that either. Then I'm leaving the group with fewer people than they expected to run with. I will probably use work as an excuse to leave. But if they ever figure out why I'm really doing it, then I am an antisocial jerk.
If, I'm going to look like a jerk no matter what, I guess I'm leaning toward letting him die and see if he learns.
...

I think De'Morcaine post here support what I am saying, there are guys saying :

"I am already spending my resources to be a better killer, I do that for you, it is only right that you will support me."
Other people feell that the "uberkiller guy" (he can be a melee guy, an archer or a spellcaster, the behaviour isn't limited to a single kind of player) is asking to be the star of the play and relegating all other players to a support role.

*

Obviously my language chosen was meant to be funny. I really don't see this as a fight causing thing. Let me phrase it more seriously. If a person repays consumables people spend on them, others will continue to use them on him. If a person doesn't repay consumables others spend on them, people will not spend them on that person. There isn't really anything to fight about.

It is kind of like the old saying, "If you lend a friend $20 and they never pay it back, you got off cheap."

People are pretending like making it easy to return a favor will open the floodgates to socialism and all hell will break loose.

Liberty's Edge

Sitri wrote:

...

People are pretending like making it easy to return a favor will open the floodgates to socialism and all hell will break loose.

No. I don't think it is horrible. I'm just not certain it will make the overall situation better. I think it will make one aspect better (I might get reimbursed for consumables used on others) while making another aspect worse (JJB has even less incentive to buy anything since there will be 'someone' at the table he can just pay back if something is needed).

I don't think it is the end of the world or will destroy the hobby. I'm just not certain if it will be a minor improvement or a minor detriment.

*

Could be, but it can also lead to people like me starting to buy consumables for the party since I would no longer see it as a reoccuring tax.

Liberty's Edge

Like I said, I'm not certain.

I would be willing to give it a playtest to see what happens.

But I think the playtest should be a 'standard' community set. If they playtest is only 'system experts' and VC's, well all those guys tend to be the well prepared ones that have the needed gear anyway.

So maybe do something like the PF games in Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan try it for 6-12 months and see what happens. Seems reasonable to me.

*****

You could also consider the communities that are currently using borrow to mean paying back as the "playtest" if you want. I'm happy to chat about results if you have any questions you'd like to ask in terms of data collection.

The Exchange *****

how would this be reflected on the ITS?

"CLW Potion replaced on CR5 Cost 0gp"?

while on the person replacing it would write ...

"returned CLW Potion bought on CR5, Expended on CR5, Cost 50gp"?

*****

The person replacing it is the only one who spent at least 25 gp, so that's usually where we record it. If the party splits it, everyone puts in "split for breath of life scroll" or "split for the components to cast raise dead on PC X" or "split to pay for remove curse for the people who got cursed". The last of those three is because no one likes to see one PC with bad dice luck pay 5x as much for removing stuff, so even if other PCs don't want to split in, the accursed at least will pre-agree to split if one person gets a removal on the first try and the other goes into many casts due to mean dice.

The Exchange *****

But don't you have to mark the used item as used? If I hand you my potion of CLW and you drink it, I mark it used on my ITS. If you replace it I would need to create a new entry to show that I got a new one, and as your PC paid for it I would mark it as 0 gp spent, correct?

Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka zeroth_hour

Mark Seifter wrote:
Schrodinger's cat where we convinced everyone to buy the scroll was exactly the SOP up here in the version of the Guide before the borrow line existed. As I discovered at Cons, however, that doesn't work as well with people when it isn't SOP. At a Con with my lower than level 9 Cleric, at most tables people thought the scroll was a good idea, but at one table (out of a few dozen), some of the players thought I was basically extorting them because they assumed the cleric should have to pay 1125 gold if they got themselves killed, and they were mad for the rest of the game. It was particularly jarring and uncomfortable for me, since I'm used to having other players enjoy playing with me at the table. While if they had died, the same thing would have come up with the borrowing rule, they didn't die (no ally has actually ever died at a table with my cleric around...yet), so the situation would have been avoided simply by not needing to mention it at the beginning.

Are those players the same ones that don't buy healing wands for out of combat healing if they don't have it on their list (and sometimes even if they do)?

I haven't played PFS at a Con yet, so how much familiarization do people have with each other before the table starts? Do you get time to actually discuss expectations? Do people try to do so or do people actively avoid it?


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When I begin a session, I make a point to note what everyone's contributions involve and to let them know what I can contribute. I'll make a point about CLW wands and various scrolls or potions. I have no issue with coming prepared and letting others turn to me when they need help. I, like others, enjoy being a "boyscout". We actually like having long, extensive inventories filled with odds and ends tucked away for rainy days. Then when the party runs into something extraordinary, we are able to contribute in some fashion by having the item needed that "saves the day".

Am I inclined to offer these rare and precious consumables to a group knowing that I'm burning my gold without any payback other than to hear "Nice job, thanks" ? Not really. But I would be much more inclined to provide aid in this way if something akin to below were official:

PC#1 has Consumable X.
PC#2 needs or desires X and is willing to pay for it (he has the Gold/Fame or the PP required to legally purchase X).
PC#1 is ok with 'lending' X to PC#2.
GM notes use of X. It is no longer available for this session.
At session end, GM removes proper amount of Gold or PP from PC#2 and returns X as unused to PC#1.

So what abuses can be made from this? Maybe it's just my own perspective but "boyscouts will get used" isn't a concern. If I don't want to share, I won't. And I won't be guilted or bullied into it either. I have no problems dropping the coin for a BoL scroll. If I can't cast it, I'll hand it to the party cleric with instructions to use it on me as needed. If I can cast it, I'd expect anyone I use it on to repay me.

Not having the above or some way to put together a "party fund" of some kind, chills teamwork. Maybe there are big abuses I'm overlooking, but I see good things coming from a change like this.

Scarab Sages

GM Lamplighter wrote:
That's not where the problem is. The problem is when players use the proosed rule to pair up and have 1 PC's gold pay for everything a second PC needs, so that the second PC can spend their gold on being a combat monster.

You mean, the way PCs act in normal games, outside Organised Play?

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