Goblin Squad Member
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It might spread a rumor that you can lose your skills if you don't play well enough even though you have payed for them... or something similar.
And that is mostly true and it doesn't sound good...
Though that is the spirit of PFO, but I wouldn't throw individual character skills into that lot... not at least in such a manner described in Stephen's post. It feels very definitive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When it comes down to it they can always go back and join an NPC settlement to regain the use of their lower tier skills.
Settlements are not likely to be destroyed for many months to come, so that leaves someone leaving a settlement and not joining another for a whole month, and then failing to ask someone in the community why they are missing skills.
If they quit because of missing skills at that point, they have failed to make use of the resources available to them several times over.
On the other hand this is a very valuable community building mechanic, as it encourages players to engage in their local community at the least, if only to be part of the group that is responsible for enabling greater levels of character advancement. Fewer players will get lost by the wayside because they do not feel they can become part of a group. Joining a settlement is just going to be a fact of life.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think having a few skills/feats greyed out because you were inactive for a few months and things changed in your settlement(destroyed, downgraded)is probably less of a setback then coming back to many other (themepark) MMO's that follow a steep powercurve and increase max level with every expansion, or change stuff around.
I know that whenever I left a MMO for an extended period of time, I had usually fallen behind the powercurve pretty badly, or had to re-assign entire skill-trees and relearn new Builds because things were revamped or added (Souls in Rift being a nasty example).
I am just saying that most people are somewhat used to having to put some extra time in their character again, after they have left the game for an extended time. People revisiting old MMO's happens frequently.
I must admit that I wanted to try Rift again the other day but finding my old build completely obsoleted sort off put me off the idea. I usually use a proven build from someone else anyway, but even that takes me usually several hours of investigating large threads on forums and I did not feel up to that task again.
So a lot depends on how big that hurdle is, but I think finding a new Home in PFO that fits your skills/feats will not be very hard. There are after all hundreds of settlements in a few years.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Only one thing that bothers me in this system: If paying a monthly subscription to PFO practically means that one character gains xp, then in the case of an accident(settlement destroyed etc), we might not be able to use the skills we have payed for. Is this intended as part of the spirit of the game?
This is something I have complained about for a while.
I use a months worth of xp on a skill, then my settlement is lost... No other settlement in the game supports my skill because 99% of them are going Lawful... Then I am hosed for a months worth of XP...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think having a few skills/feats greyed out because you were inactive for a few months and things changed in your settlement(destroyed, downgraded)is probably less of a setback then coming back to many other (themepark) MMO's that follow a steep powercurve and increase max level with every expansion, or change stuff around.
I know that whenever I left a MMO for an extended period of time, I had usually fallen behind the powercurve pretty badly, or had to re-assign entire skill-trees and relearn new Builds because things were revamped or added (Souls in Rift being a nasty example).
I am just saying that most people are somewhat used to having to put some extra time in their character again, after they have left the game for an extended time. People revisiting old MMO's happens frequently.
I must admit that I wanted to try Rift again the other day but finding my old build completely obsoleted sort off put me off the idea. I usually use a proven build from someone else anyway, but even that takes me usually several hours of investigating large threads on forums and I did not feel up to that task again.
So a lot depends on how big that hurdle is, but I think finding a new Home in PFO that fits your skills/feats will not be very hard. There are after all hundreds of settlements in a few years.
That is what happens in Theme Park games. It will happend in PFO... They will tweak something and make a class lose its power. It will happen often.
But there is a big difference between having to remapping skill trees and losing the ability to use skills.
Increasing the level cap, yes it happens.. but how long does it really take to get those 5 more levels? A day or three? Hardly matters.
The italic part: Tell me one planned settlement so far that will be chaotic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Only one thing that bothers me in this system: If paying a monthly subscription to PFO practically means that one character gains xp, then in the case of an accident(settlement destroyed etc), we might not be able to use the skills we have payed for. Is this intended as part of the spirit of the game?This is something I have complained about for a while.
I use a months worth of xp on a skill, then my settlement is lost... No other settlement in the game supports my skill because 99% of them are going Lawful... Then I am hosed for a months worth of XP...
So far, there have been 5 Settlements announced, LN, NG, N out of 33 settlements. If you include the LG/LE of Pax, then most things are covered except for Chaotic settlements. Out of 33 settlements to start, and the 250 settlements open for OE, I am sure someone will have something to support you. Especially if alignment plays a role.
Most likely certain alignments will play into this.
I am thinking that Paladin will have to be in a LG settlement or a settlement within 1 step, so LN, NG, or LG.
Clerics can probably be built anywhere, but they can only train in the settlement if their deity is within 1 step of the cities alignment. I also see the same thing for Inquisitors, and Oracles.
Monks might be the only one that is strictly prohibited to LN.
Barbarians to any Chaotic Settlement.
I could see Rogue being built anywhere, but only certain abilities skills available based on alignment.
Bard, Fighter, Ranger, Sorcerer, Wizard, Alchemist, Witch, Summoner, Magus, Gunslinger really not having too many restrictions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think having a few skills/feats greyed out because you were inactive for a few months and things changed in your settlement(destroyed, downgraded)is probably less of a setback then coming back to many other (themepark) MMO's that follow a steep powercurve and increase max level with every expansion, or change stuff around.
I know that whenever I left a MMO for an extended period of time, I had usually fallen behind the powercurve pretty badly, or had to re-assign entire skill-trees and relearn new Builds because things were revamped or added (Souls in Rift being a nasty example).
I am just saying that most people are somewhat used to having to put some extra time in their character again, after they have left the game for an extended time. People revisiting old MMO's happens frequently.
I must admit that I wanted to try Rift again the other day but finding my old build completely obsoleted sort off put me off the idea. I usually use a proven build from someone else anyway, but even that takes me usually several hours of investigating large threads on forums and I did not feel up to that task again.
So a lot depends on how big that hurdle is, but I think finding a new Home in PFO that fits your skills/feats will not be very hard. There are after all hundreds of settlements in a few years.
That is what happens in Theme Park games. It will happend in PFO... They will tweak something and make a class lose its power. It will happen often.
But there is a big difference between having to remapping skill trees and losing the ability to use skills.
Increasing the level cap, yes it happens.. but how long does it really take to get those 5 more levels? A day or three? Hardly matters.
The italic part: Tell me one planned settlement so far that will be chaotic.
Not exactly answering you, but if they are going to be using EVE's Skills system, shouldn't it take us at least 1.5 - 2 years before people starting pushing maxed out Tier2/3 skills?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect players to be able to find a new settlement that will take them in that supports the right skills/feats to be a matter of a few hours, possibly a few minutes.
When you see see the work Harad is doing already, I am sure there will be websites where you can instantly look up which settlements currently support your skills, if they are open for new members, their location, rules whatever. Unless the entire world consists of paranoid, closed off settlements that are reluctant to take on new members, I do not think this will be a problem.
Also, you were probably part of a Company that may still exist and made sure they keep chartered to a settlement that supports their members skills/feats. If the membership of the Company is so changed that they now support other skills you may have to find another company which is a setback, but not really something GW should provide for.
Same for Chaotic settlements. I think there will be several later on, but if not then playing Chaotic is obviously playing it hard. That should be fine in this game. The fact remains that this is a game that centers around settlements and the groups that form them. You lose your settlement, you lose some of your power: so part of your in-game efforts will have to be directed towards your settlement; and in this case, finding, or founding a new one.
I do not really buy the argument of "I payed for that xp, the power that it bought me should always be available to me": if anything, every new WoW expansion pretty much completely negates the power that you "payed" for when you bought the previous expansion(hyperbole but you get my point).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The italic part: Tell me one planned settlement so far that will be chaotic.
Isn't Thornkeep Chaotic?
Regardless, none of the starting classes require a particular alignment and it sounds like low level abilities can be purchased and maintained just about anywhere. Thus, I don't think the alignments of the initial settlements will play a part.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The italic part: Tell me one planned settlement so far that will be chaotic.Isn't Thornkeep Chaotic?
Regardless, none of the starting classes require a particular alignment and it sounds like low level abilities can be purchased and maintained just about anywhere. Thus, I don't think the alignments of the initial settlements will play a part.
Thornkeep is an NPC settlement that will not support high end skills.
There will be alignment based skills/abilities. Use the term "class" loosely.
Bigmancheatle: Eventually yes, there will be chaotic settlements, and yes it will be a good long time before we get to high end skills. What we do not know yet is what skills will be player settlement tied and what tiers those skills will be. If we had more information, then we could make better judgments on it. Till then "The sky is falling, The sky is falling!!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the sky will be falling a lot harder when people find out they lose 25% + 75% of their stuff when killed and there are corpse-runs in this PvP game.
I realize that there's so much more to it then just those numbers, but we are talking the uninformed, "the sky is falling" crowd here who can't be bothered to read up or are simply too sceptical.
I think when it comes to bad PR, we will have much bigger fish to fry then a few greyed out skills/feats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Still not as bad as Darkfall....we didn't have threading....and I agree if people aren't told about threads, and they log in with those Adventure Packs full of gear......
My assumption has been that there are going to be 'scripted adventures' in the NPC safe zones where characters start which will walk people through the major game elements like threads, flags, and zones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Still not as bad as Darkfall....we didn't have threading....and I agree if people aren't told about threads, and they log in with those Adventure Packs full of gear......
Well, I think people that actually get to the point where they log in are initially not our biggest problem. It's the people on those many game-forums that hear a few pointers about PFO and then go badmouth it for whatever reason.
I have seen people trash PFO before they knew a single thing about it, because Ryan did something bad to their TCG or something?
But I agree with you that those that log in so uninformed, may become the most vocal adversaries to the game. I am hopeful though that there will arise a newbie-friendly culture in the NPC starter cities that will alleviate a lot of this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Still not as bad as Darkfall....we didn't have threading....and I agree if people aren't told about threads, and they log in with those Adventure Packs full of gear......
Well, I think people that actually get to the point where they log in are initially not our biggest problem. It's the people on those many game-forums that hear a few pointers about PFO and then go badmouth it for whatever reason.
I have seen people trash PFO before they knew a single thing about it, because Ryan did something bad to their TCG or something?
But I agree with you that those that log in so uninformed, may become the most vocal adversaries to the game.
Nah. It will be those that aren't happy with the direction of the game design. Usually the biggest point of contention. Those petitioning to change things incessantly on the forums to 'evolve' the game rather than willing to try out the designers vision and see it through. Like reading a book and demanding the story goes in a different direction until the author changes things. They do this because it has worked in the past. But those have been mostly Themeparks. We'll see how this sandbox variant will hold up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, I know those people. PFO is trying to cater to a big chunk of players that have been unhappy with previous PvP games (murder simulators) and I am not sure if these are the people that will want to sway the game-design though. I would rather think these people would leave in droves, saying "See, it can't be done, pity, back to PvE", after something nasty happens to them.
The people you talk about are usually invested in the game already(PvE or PvP) and then want it to go their way. I agree they can be a danger and an annoyance to any "vision" but at least these people are playing it, not dropping it like a hot potato because they got ganked by that group of vets that seemed so friendly when they offered to bring a few newbies to their new player-settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Devs should listen to those who are the most logical, not those who whine the loudest. One of Darkfall's many reasons it failed.
The Devs here are very active within the community, so for the most part I think everything in PFO will be fine. The Devs will hopefully already have a lot of their go to guys for opinions before the OE begins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think BW and Xeen have valid points about a lack of chaotic settlements. They really are likely to be few and far between.
Hopefully we will have a diverse enough player base that the underdogs can band together when needed.
If you log in after months and find that everything has changed and you no longer have a home or company, you may still potentially have unsent xp to use.
If you stop playing and stop paying for an extended period of time, such that the landscape has changed dramatically, at that point it was your choice to remove yourself from the game world and finding a new place should simply be expected.
There really is not much to be done for someone who has walked away from the game.
Though it might be nice if you do not simply log into the middle of a new and potentially hostile settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think BW and Xeen have valid points about a lack of chaotic settlements. They really are likely to be few and far between.
Not directing this to anyone that you listed there, but rather in general. I think that those individuals know the way to go.
It is a sandbox. At least a hybrid sandbox. You make your own opportunities. If you want/need a chaotic settlement, you get together and build one. If you can't do that, then I guess that IS Chaos in one example. ;)
There is also the possibility of a neutral-ish settlement that bridges to your brand of chaotic alignment.
Make it happen!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are there any skills that will persist without settlement support?
I'm thinking specifically basic individual travel, self defense, and perception skills.
The kinds of skills that would be useful if you log in after a month away and learn your settlement was siezed, to reach another one.
Nothing worse than coming back after a vacation to find out your house is burned down, your spells don't work, and you can't even reach an NPC settlement without getting killed every hex.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are mostly talking about special skills and higher tier skills when we talk about skills that require settlement support.
I believe that Ryan has stated that most basic/general/non-role-specific skills/abilities will be learned from any settlement, and therefore you won't ever lose them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are there any skills that will persist without settlement support?
I'm thinking specifically basic individual travel, self defense, and perception skills.
The kinds of skills that would be useful if you log in after a month away and learn your settlement was siezed, to reach another one.Nothing worse than coming back after a vacation to find out your house is burned down, your spells don't work, and you can't even reach an NPC settlement without getting killed every hex.
From what I have seen and the impression that I have gotten, your Tier I skills and a goodly amount of Tier II will be covered by the NPC holding that you auto revert to. I imagine that in the case of a "nation" or "empire" you might revert to one of their other holdings? Nothing has been said to support that assumption though. Probably incorrect, as of right now...
In short, I have the feeling that (after the one month timer at disconnect) you won't suffer so badly that you can't function. That would not be good for game morale.
Edit: It might also be good to realize that the function seems parallel to "having really low rep". Those people will suffer too. You possibly can't have one without the other...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think BW and Xeen have valid points about a lack of chaotic settlements. They really are likely to be few and far between.Not directing this to anyone that you listed there, but rather in general. I think that those individuals know the way to go.
It is a sandbox. At least a hybrid sandbox. You make your own opportunities. If you want/need a chaotic settlement, you get together and build one. If you can't do that, then I guess that IS Chaos in one example. ;)
There is also the possibility of a neutral-ish settlement that bridges to your brand of chaotic alignment.
Make it happen!
Of course, you are correct. I have not wanted to run an empire since my Eve 0.0 alliance days... but may end up doing it here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While the initial settlement choices are probably an uncomfortable distance to the three major guilds' influence to be growing a chaotic power, I suspect that as the map opens up there will be ideal places to operate such an empire from, with time to grow and space to do it in.
I am really looking forward to this aspect of the game. What will people think of geography when OE starts? ^.^
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The best comparison I can make would be to someone who trained Titan piloting in EvE. If your corp loses all of their Titans, that skill can't be used.
I don't think settlement buildings will be as hard to replace, nor as easy to destroy, as Titans.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The best comparison I can make would be to someone who trained Titan piloting in EvE. If your corp loses all of their Titans, that skill can't be used.
I don't think settlement buildings will be as hard to replace, nor as easy to destroy, as Titans.
They do not lose the skill to fly a Titan, they can buy one and still fly it even if they do not have the ability to make one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And you do not lose the skill to use your high-end abilities, it's only delayed until your company can get back the skill training required. The Titan analogy is actually quite apt; in both cases the big loss causes you to be unable to use your high-end skills, and it's more an economic problem for your company than anything (though with PfO it's also politics in getting your training).
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Goblin Squad Member
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And you do not lose the skill to use your high-end abilities, it's only delayed until your company can get back the skill training required. The Titan analogy is actually quite apt; in both cases the big loss causes you to be unable to use your high-end skills, and it's more an economic problem for your company than anything (though with PfO it's also politics in getting your training).
But you can buy a titan, be in an NPC corp and still fly it. You can be completely solo and still fly it. With PFO, if you are not in a certain settlement then you lose the use of the skill.
Yes, the analogy is a good choice.
My mind goes to the... In Eve you never lose the use of a skill, no matter what group you are with. If you have the money, you can use the skill.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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One of the problems that MMO designers have struggled with since the beginning is how to inflict meaningful pain on players in ways that doesn't drive them to quit.
Permadeath was tried, and found wanting. It was SO meaningful that folks couldn't tolerate it.
All sorts of "time based" penalties have been tried. In small doses, they seem to work, but the longer the time penalty the more likely the player will switch to an alt (account or character) or quit. The problem of small doses of time penalties is that they don't really change player behavior much, at most they may create a short-duration behavior change but it doesn't seem to become persistent.
So the idea that your character can lose capabilities as a result of in-game activities is something we are very eager to try in our game. I think it has the potential to be revolutionary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the problems that MMO designers have struggled with since the beginning is how to inflict meaningful pain on players in ways that doesn't drive them to quit.
Permadeath was tried, and found wanting. It was SO meaningful that folks couldn't tolerate it.
All sorts of "time based" penalties have been tried. In small doses, they seem to work, but the longer the time penalty the more likely the player will switch to an alt (account or character) or quit. The problem of small doses of time penalties is that they don't really change player behavior much, at most they may create a short-duration behavior change but it doesn't seem to become persistent.
So the idea that your character can lose capabilities as a result of in-game activities is something we are very eager to try in our game. I think it has the potential to be revolutionary.
Of course; we have discussed this before. The problem as I see it is, you can lose your abilities due to no activity of your own... Or you can lose it do to a meaningful choice you have made.
Someone takes a settlement, all members lose skill use.
Someone chooses to not take part in the political landscape, and loses use of skills.
I left the political landscape in Eve because it became a drag, boring, and waste of my time. I did not enjoy the game any longer, and I either left that part of the game or I quit the game. Guess what, I had more fun playing the game with that choice then I ever did before.
I honestly see this being placed right up there with permadeath and time based penalties, as a failure. (and I mean this choice of using skill loss, not the game itself... though it could drag the game down)
Granted its my opinion, and we shall see... as I have no idea what skills/abilities will be PC settlement tied.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is in a sense a time based penalty, albeit one with a fuse that you have to solve yourself. On the other hand there is nothing permanent about it.
You are pretty spot on about losing a settlement because of your own actions, but the other reason you could lose it is your own inaction. The reason you find yourself in trouble to begin with is because of what you did, but if you actually lose it, it will be because of what you did not do.
Be it not showing up to the fight, not making a meaningful contribution towards the fight if you were there, failing to employ assassins that could lower the effectiveness of your opponent, or even neglecting to make political allies that can assist you precisely in the event of such an invasion.
When someone inevitably falls afoul of this mechanic, it will surely sting, but not without a long road of warning signs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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you can lose your abilities due to no activity of your own... Or you can lose it do to a meaningful choice you have made.
Someone takes a settlement, all members lose skill use.
Someone chooses to not take part in the political landscape, and loses use of skills.
Is choosing not to take part in the political landscape not a meaningful choice? Is choosing not to defend the settlement you are relying on not a meaningful choice? Is choosing not to engage with other players in such a way that your settlement has strong allies and/or few enemies not a meaningful choice?
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Goblin Squad Member
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you can lose your abilities due to no activity of your own... Or you can lose it do to a meaningful choice you have made.
Someone takes a settlement, all members lose skill use.
Someone chooses to not take part in the political landscape, and loses use of skills.
Is choosing not to take part in the political landscape not a meaningful choice? Is choosing not to defend the settlement you are relying on not a meaningful choice? Is choosing not to engage with other players in such a way that your settlement has strong allies and/or few enemies not a meaningful choice?
I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or what...
It is a meaningful choice to not take part in the political landscape. That is exactly what I said. Due to a meaningful choice, you lose the use of skills...
Choosing not to defend your settlement is a meaningful choice, but not the right one. Choosing to defend your settlement, does not mean victory. Which is kinda my point. Your group loses its settlement due to no fault of your own... and you lose the use of skills. (yeah I know it takes a month)
Engaging and yadda, yes, that is your choice, for either doing or not doing...
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Dont panic! HERE I AM!
No, but seriously. I just got back from a few days vacation so imma answer a couple of the questions that are outstanding and then go on a tangent about some of the other issues raised.
1) Alignment restrictions on structures: This is still slightly TBD. In some cases there will be specific alignment restrictions for certain buildings (notably faction buildings) but there is most likely going to be some leeway on non-factional structures. This will probably be 1 step. Whether this is on class structures or class support structures I'm still working on. I am fairly liberal about this though since I've balanced the DI/settlement plots in such a way that you will ALWAYS have to make tough choices about what classes are covered in your settlement.
2) PoIs: As Stephen mentioned PoIs only really cover skills. There may be SOME PoIs that can cover SOME class training up to tier II but mostly they will train skills/professions/crafting/harvesting. If you are a member of a company with a PoI you will enjoy the benefit of support for those skills as well as support for skills covered by your settlement. There will be some corner cases where this might be a bit of a boon, but generally speaking the skills/feats supported by PoIs will not be game-breaking.
To assuage some fears:
The question of ending up without any skills after you come back from a holiday - this is pretty much impossible by the current design. If your settlement membership expires (because you got kicked or the settlement was destroyed or the company was disbanded or you suddenly lost a lot of rep in player appeals) you will automatically be allocated to an NPC settlement. NPC settlements will cover all available training up to a certain level (tier II for a looooong time) so that you will not be by any means helpless. It might be that some of your factional or alignment based skills are not available to you, but there certainly be enough left over for you to get to another settlement without dying in every hex. Also, dont forget that you can join another settlement from anywhere in the world - you dont actually need to GO there. Hell, you can organise the whole switchover offline if you can pimp yourself out on the forums :)
We are super-conscious of the potential issues that this system creates, but we are also really excited about the implications. Bear in mind that much of the restrictive side of this stuff only really comes into play at higher levels - your early/mid game experience is tier II and for the majority of that period you can be supported by the NPC settlements (although the benefits of being in a PC settlement are far greater), so the risk is very low.
In short, you could do very well as a member of an independent company right the way up to 10th level and beyond. You will find PFO to be a much richer experience if you join a settlement earlier of course, but by that stage with all the epic skillz you've learned through 10 levels of play you should have the pick of the bunch!
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) PoIs: As Stephen mentioned PoIs only really cover skills. There may be SOME PoIs that can cover SOME class training up to tier II but mostly they will train skills/professions/crafting/harvesting. If you are a member of a company with a PoI you will enjoy the benefit of support for those skills as well as support for skills covered by your settlement. There will be some corner cases where this might be a bit of a boon, but generally speaking the skills/feats supported by PoIs will not be game-breaking.
Love this feature and fear the need to keep the POI's from being burned down. Love and Fear: All the best things in gaming! ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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To assuage some fears:
The question of ending up without any skills after you come back from a holiday - this is pretty much impossible by the current design. If your settlement membership expires (because you got kicked or the settlement was destroyed or the company was disbanded or you suddenly lost a lot of rep in player appeals) you will automatically be allocated to an NPC settlement. NPC settlements will cover all available training up to a certain level (tier II for a looooong time) so that you will not be by any means helpless. It might be that some of your factional or alignment based skills are not available to you, but there certainly be enough left over for you to get to another settlement without dying in every hex....
Do skills cost more in XP from an NPC settlement?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've balanced the DI/settlement plots in such a way that you will ALWAYS have to make tough choices about what classes are covered in your settlement.
So just to be clear, if I'm in a guild with a bunch of friends and we like a variety of classes....we can't all be members of the same settlement together without some of us not being able to obtain proper training? Beyond tier 2, at least?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've balanced the DI/settlement plots in such a way that you will ALWAYS have to make tough choices about what classes are covered in your settlement.So just to be clear, if I'm in a guild with a bunch of friends and we like a variety of classes....we can't all be members of the same settlement together without some of us not being able to obtain proper training? Beyond tier 2, at least?
Sounds like, yes
Man I hope I am blown away with the fun of combat...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could we get a bit of clarification on how tough those choices that need to be made will be?
If several mid-tier settlements were put together in a balanced fashion, how many would it likely to take to provide advanced training to all 11 core classes? How many additional (non-core) classes is one of these balanced settlements going to be able to support?
I am wondering: while we might be able to offer basic support to nearly all (all 4? all 11?) classes at the expense of practically all of a settlement's DI/space, will we then normally be able to choose a single primary class and support maybe two or three additional before the settlement starts to suffer in other ways?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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So just to be clear, if I'm in a guild with a bunch of friends and we like a variety of classes....we can't all be members of the same settlement together without some of us not being able to obtain proper training? Beyond tier 2, at least?
"Proper Training" is in the eye of the beholder. Remember that the more advanced skills you train, the more exotic those skills become. There is a very large space of "good" within Tier I and II skills.
Making meaningful choices is a big part of the game design. The choice to have an exoticly trained mixed group of characters united within one social structure will require a Player Nation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So just to be clear, if I'm in a guild with a bunch of friends and we like a variety of classes....we can't all be members of the same settlement together without some of us not being able to obtain proper training? Beyond tier 2, at least?"Proper Training" is in the eye of the beholder. Remember that the more advanced skills you train, the more exotic those skills become. There is a very large space of "good" within Tier I and II skills.
Making meaningful choices is a big part of the game design. The choice to have an exoticly trained mixed group of characters united within one social structure will require a Player Nation.
That brings it around a little better.
So tell me if I understand this better... and maybe missed it in one of our prior countless discussions.
Tier 1 and 2 skills are the bread and butter. These will be available at NPC settlements, and anything beyond those are PC Settlement provided and really are not necessary but can provide an extra bump here and there?
I know you said before that the high end skills are only going to provide 0.1% bump (maybe it was 0.5%)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't cling so hard to a specific number at the moment. The point is that, while T3 (the upper ends of which will be very hard to obtain) will make you significantly stronger than T2, it is not a requirement for success, and people shouldn't assume that loss of those skills means their company is worthless, it's simply less strong than it was. Least that's what I've been hearing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Too bad there's no 'dual citizenship'. Then you could be a citizen of an NPC settlement for your basic skills and a particular player settlement for just the high end skills you need. As it is set up it seems like the various player settlements are each going to have to spend quite a bit of resources duplicating options their residents could have gotten from an NPC settlement.
I'm not sure how this would all work with the idea of individual characters eventually mastering more than one class... they might need to be members of a settlement which specializes in maintaining all abilities and then find other settlements which allow non-residents to learn the abilities in the first place. Of course, by the time any of that is relevant things could be very different. Still, it seems like designing settlements to maintain a lot of abilities and train only a few may become a common strategy. That way you can have residents with all types of abilities... once they have gotten the initial training from scattered sites.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...will make you significantly stronger than T2...
I believe, given the several comments, that it's more along the lines of "make you significantly stronger in certain specific circumstances (which circumstances being determined by which T3 ability's under discussion)", as opposed to "generally significantly stronger".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I sure hope that Player settlements will give a lot more benefits over NPC settlements then a few exotic Tier 3 Feats(and most certainly not just the 0.5-1.0% power-increase that Xeen keeps talking about). I wonder how much of Tier 2 is supported in NPC settlements? I always figured NPC settlements would give *some* Tier 1 skills (not even everything) so people could get started, and then were encouraged to find a PC settlement.
If you can do low *and* mid-tier progression almost all the way in an NPC settlement, I am not sure if PC settlements will get enough members.
I understand that people need to be able to fall back to an NPC settlement when theirs is destroyed, or they get kicked out or their alignment shifts and they have to leave, but I figure there will be more then enought settlements that will want to take them in. I am sure there will be settlements with a shortage of members, maybe even lots of them, and after all, every member adds to the DI of a settlement.
So being sent to an NPC settlement should be a temporary thing and an unwanted situation for a non-newbie player. And if nobody wants you as a member, then you should maybe change your tune.
I have heard that a lot of Eve players never leave high-sec; that's fine. However I was hoping that "high-sec" in PFO would mean your settlement(within the walls at least and near them) and not NPC-controlled cities. That is why I expect members to want to work(harvest/trade) and fight for their cities.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Tier III feats are significantly better than Tier II. But they're not as much better as going up a bunch of levels in most MMOs. A fight between a single T2 and a T3 with equivalent builds and gameplay skills will almost always go to the T3 (but not instantly). A fight between two T2s and a single T3 is suddenly a much more open question.
They're also heavily gear dependent. If you're running T3 feats but only going around in your (much more affordable and reasonable to lose on death) T2 gear, you may gain a few small incremental bonuses over T2, but most of your power is tied up in being able to use the keywords on T3 gear you're not carrying. Sending characters out fully geared up to make use of T3 feats is a tremendous force multiplier, but also puts you at risk to lose a lot of money if they get swarmed and taken down anyway.