Need help making a Support / Summoning Cleric


Advice

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After deciding on Cleric over the Oracle, I need help with the build as I've never made a Cleric before. This is a replacement for my current character, a Cavalier.

I have never played this type of character before so I'd appreciate spell suggestions. I'm going to be going with the Evangelist archetype and will probably take the Heroism domain. Will most likely be either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral, depending on what works best. Also thinking about taking the Variant Channeling for Valor/Glory (seems like they should be the same as for Heroism) to give the AC buff from my Channels.

I'd also seen the stuff about the Reach Cleric. I would like to try to build that into the character as well but I want to primarily be Support/Buff/Caster-focused.

Any help would be appreciated!

Important Things:

We're 12th Level.

I don't remember what the point buy was. I can include my Cavalier's current stats to give you an idea of what we're working with as far as power levels are concerned. I think we may have used a 25 point buy? But I'm not sure. I have equipment bonuses within the parentheses.

Cavalier's stats: STR 24 (20+4), DEX 18 (14+4), CON 20 (16+4), INT 16 (14+2), WIS 14 (12+2), CHA 7

As for books, we're allowed to use all official material on the PFSRD. There are certain 3pp things we can use but we have to run it by him first. Mostly, though, we just use official stuff.

House Rules:
- Always get full HP on level up (i.e. d10 HD always equals 10+Con HP)
- Cure spells work as Close range instead of Touch
- Cure spells always heal the maximum amount


Standard Summoning Feats are Spell focus (conjuration), Augment Summoning and Superior Summons. You could also mix in Sacred Summons, which reduces the cast time of summoning creatures with the same alignment as you to 1 standard action, and Summon Good Monster to open up some very nice summoning options.

Admittedly that's a lot of feats, but it makes your summons a major force to be reckoned with.

Something to consider for a summoning/buffing/support cleric is that you don't actually need to get your Wisdom sky-high. If you're not casting spells with saves you don't need to max your DCs, so all you gain from Wisdom is bonus spells.

Shadow Lodge

I would suggest either going LG or CG and making good use out of Sacred Summons and Summon Good Monster, as mentioned above, as well as the three feats mentioned above, though they are not strictly needed.

Check out the various Deity articles for additional Cleric Spells, and for various options you might want.

Look for spells that will affect multiple targets, and keep in mind that your Summons can likewise be buffed. Bless is a good one from the start. Other spells that either buff your defense, or affect multiple targets/area are what you want.

A few things to keep in mind.

1.) Watch those Ranges. Summons need to stay fairly close.

2.) Most of the time it's much better to place a few creatures from a lower list on the battlefield than it is to summon one more powerful creature. The goal is to try to force the enemies to not be able to move or attack the party rather than trying to deal a lot of damage.

3.) If you go LG, Summoning a bunch of Lantern Archons, in addition to looking freakin' awesome, can net you a bunch of "free healing". Other creatures can also do other things you might not except, that can indirectly boost you secondary Support Role.

4.) Moreso than most Clerics, you will probably want to focus a lot on speed, defense, and mobility. You will want to act early, and be able to position yourself well before a lot of enemies get the chance to move.

5.) Be ready. Pick a few things to summon a lot, know their stats, and keep an eye out for your turn taking too long or starting to annoy everyone else. You probably want to limit yourself to a mx of around 3 Summoned minion at a time, and possibly even not have all of them attack, just to keep things going. Have them there to soak up damage and prevent charges and the like, but don't ruin everyone else's fun by trying to attack 20 times each round.

6.) You might also want to check out either ranged or reach options. It will both help you to keep out of too much danger and help you with your mobility. A high Dex & Con, moderate Wis & Cha build with a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes, and relying more on AoOs allows you to do a lot of things each round. Normally, you do not threaten when you cast a SM spell, as a Full Round Action. With Sacred Summons, you do.


It's worth noting the rest of the party composition, forgot to do that.

We have:
A debuffing/CC Witch
A DD fire Sorcerer
A war hound Barbarian that specializes in Trip and Trip-generated AOOs
A Zen Archer


Did you look at The Reach Cleric Guide?


Yeah I did but I have a hard time synthesizing much of the information since I've never played a Cleric before or really played any class like this. I'm always a Bard or a straight physical DD.

I'm going Human so I'm thinking, as far as traits/feats:

Trait 1 - Reactionary
Trait 2 - ???

Human - Spell Focus (Conjuration)
1 - Sacred Summons
3 - Augment Summoning
5 - Superior Summoning
7 - Power Attack
9 - Combat Reflexes
11 - Divine Interference
13 - Discordant Voice

I'm not so worried about metamagic because our GM gives out a lot of great loot, much of which has a BUNCH of metamagic effects on it.

What do y'all think?


modicasolis wrote:

Yeah I did but I have a hard time synthesizing much of the information since I've never played a Cleric before or really played any class like this. I'm always a Bard or a straight physical DD.

I'm going Human so I'm thinking, as far as traits/feats:

Trait 1 - Reactionary
Trait 2 - ???

Human - Spell Focus (Conjuration)
1 - Sacred Summons
3 - Augment Summoning
5 - Superior Summoning
7 - Power Attack
9 - Combat Reflexes
11 - Divine Interference
13 - Discordant Voice

I'm not so worried about metamagic because our GM gives out a lot of great loot, much of which has a BUNCH of metamagic effects on it.

What do y'all think?

Oh wait, I should probably throw Summon Good Monster in there...

What's the deal with Sacred Summons? I don't quite get what it's saying or what it allows me to do differently with my summons besides letting me summon some (which?) creatures as a Standard Action?


creatures of your exact alignment can be summoned as a standard action instead of a full round action.


But not creatures without any listed alignment even though they share my alignment?


What creature has no alignment?


If you take Sacred Summons and Summon Good Monster there are quite a few monsters at most levels of each good alignment. This means you've almost always got a summon you can throw out as a standard action in addition to moving and casting a quickened spell.


So if I'm Chaotic Good, can I only summon Chaotic Good monsters? Or are those just the ones that I can summon as a Standard Action and the rest take a full round?

Well, I guess I might be confusing myself. So I have a Chaotic Good aura as a Chaotic Good Cleric, right? So with Sacred Summons, I can summon as a Standard Action any monster that has Chaotic or Good as their subtype? Or does it have to have Chaotic and Good (such as the azata creatures)? If it is the latter, then Summon Good Monster doesn't seem as useful.

Also, what about all the creatures who have no listed subtype? Sacred Summons does nothing for them?


Sacred Summons only lets you summon creature with the same alignment (so CG) as your aura as a standard action, but you can still summon any creature from Summon Good monster as a full-round action. It is probably better for NG and LG clerics. That said, Lillend Azata are pretty damn good, though their bardic performance wouldn't stack with your Evangelists.


Hmm...and what do Chaotic Neutral characters get to summon? Monsters with the Chaotic subtype? There is no Neutral aura, right?


The more I look at it, the more it seems like for a CG Cleric that Sacred Summons isn't worth it at all. There's only two azata that are useful, the one I can summon with Summon Monster IX and the one I can summon with Summon Monster V. The other, the Liliend, won't do anything since I'll already be doing my Bardic Performances with Evangelist.

I don't see any good reasons to take it as a CG Cleric but I could be wrong.

Silver Crusade

@OP: Looks like a solid plan! Here are a few comments:

For your second trait, consider Fate's Favored. You can self-buff with Divine Favor for +4 to hit and +4 damage in the form of a luck bonus that stacks with everything else. Combine with metamagic quicken spell if possible. You will also have access to other (relatively rare) luck bonuses.

Another likely trait is Magical Lineage (your favorite spell). This is only valuable if you take metamagic feats, so maybe don't bother with this one.

Perhaps choose a flavorful trait, or a trait that improves a non-class skill you want to invest in. e.g. Perception

Re. Alignment and Sacred Summons, none are ideal. CG provides those two Azata, as you noted. LG gives you Lantern Archons for Summon Monster 3 (SM3) and Hound Archons for SM4. That means your can use SM5 to get a swarm (3-6, d4+2) of L'il Lasers, each of which gets two (only one on Standard Action summons round) ranged touch attacks +6 for 1d6+3 (counting your Inspire Courage) that penetrate all DR. Think of each SM5 l'il laser clump as 9d6+27 damage in ranged touch attacks each round.

The Evil alignments get slightly better Sacred Summons than LG. It doesn't work at all with any Neutral alignment. Oh well.

Good luck! Sounds like you have challenging GM!

Scarab Sages

For feats, go for Selective Channel. I like Channel Smite which allows my negative channeling cleric to apply negative energy damage to attacks at the cost of one channel. Channel shield wall is good if you have fighter friends or those who love shields. it adds 2 to ac. Another feat increases the dc of your channel. I forget what that is off the top of my head.
I never played a cleric before this and I must say that playing her has been the best. Enjoy the class and celebrate your faith. :D

Silver Crusade

Evangelist clerics have weak channeling. Only 4d6 at 12th level. The OP's plan calls for Variant Channeling (Bravery/Valor).

Variant Channeling (Bravery/Valor) wrote:
Bravery/Valor: Heal—Creatures affected by fear may attempt another saving throw and receive a channel bonus on the roll. A creature unaffected by fear gains a channel bonus to its Armor Class until the end of your next turn and on its attack roll if it makes a charge attack before your next turn. Harm—This works like a standard channel (not halved).

Allies will get +4 AC and +4 to hit on a charge attack. Only 2d6 healing. Selective channeling is not needed in this case. The Variant Channeling makes his otherwise weak channels into a terrific 1st-round combat buff. Perhaps squeeze in the feat Quick Channel, if this is going to be a common tactic.

Your early combat rounds might look like:

1st round:
Standard Action: Cast a spell , possibly an Augmented Superior Sacred Summon Monster spell
Swift Action: start Inspire Courage +3 +3
Move action: Quick Channel to give allies +4 on AC and +4 on a charge attack.
Summoned critters act: Your Hound Archons each charge at +19 to hit for 2d6+14 damage, or your Lantern Archons fire away.
Take a 5' step to fish for AoOs, which will hit for about 20 HP un-buffed or 30-50 HP buffed.

Want us to post some sample spell lists that are appropriate to a Summoning-themed 12th level Evangelist Cleric with some martial skill?

Grand Lodge

I agree with Magda about the Evanlist Cleric they make for stronger summons. Bardic performance after the summons lands makes them a lot stronger. You just take normal summoning feats and buff those summoned critters. Since they will be taking the damage you need not so much about healing.


Magda Luckbender wrote:


Want us to post some sample spell lists that are appropriate to a Summoning-themed 12th level Evangelist Cleric with some martial skill?

I'd really appreciate that. Magda, you're swell.

Silver Crusade

Sample default prepared divine spell list for a summoning-themed martial cleric level 12

12th level Evangelist Cleric spell list:

You must fill in the Domain spells and the Orisons. Also, open spell slots give you full access to all Divine spells levels one through six with 15 minutes notice. Know your options.

Orisons are skipped. Bonus spells figured in for a 16 WIS

1st: 5+D, 2nd: 5+D 3rd: 5+D 4th: 3+D 5th: 3+D 6th: 2+D

1st Level Divine Spells
(D)omain spell
Protection from Evil
Summon Monster I <-- for trap detection and general utility
Shield of Faith +4 deflection to AC stacks (this lasts 24 minutes extended with metamagic)
Divine Favor +3 +3 (unless Fate's Favored trait make's +4 +4)
Open 1st (use each night at bedtime for always-on Endure Elements)

2nd Level Divine Spells
(D)omain spell
Cure Moderate Wounds <-- a little pick-me-up
Bull's Strength (drop this if everyone has a STR belt)
Weapon of Awe <--- great spell! Put on archer's bow. Stacks. Even better with Divine Warrior trait.
Summon Monster II
Open 2nd (use at bedtime for Web Shelter camping)

3rd Level Divine Spells
(D)omain spell
Resist Energy, Communal <--- great spell! Energy Resistance(chosen element) - 30 for the whole party
Magic Circle Against Evil <--- great spell! Immunity to mind influencing magic for everyone near
Summon Monster III
Protection from Energy
Open 3rd (use each night at Bedtime, with extended metamagic rod 3K gp, to prepare and cast Magic Vestment for 24 hour duration +3 armor enhancement)

4th level Divine Spells 3+D
(D)omain spell
Freedom of Movement
Blessing of Fervor <-- overall best in-combat group buff spell
Open 4th (use at bedtime, with a full metamagic rod of Extend Spell (9K gp), for 24 hour +3 weapon enhancement for you and your pals. The trait Divine Warrior gives magic weapons you create an always-on extra +1 damage, making them +3 +4)

5th Level Divine Spells 3+D
(D)omain spell
Breath of Life <--- great spell! Always carry it and hope never to use it.
Summon Monster V <--- great spell! Your best offensive spell. Sacred Summons L'il laser swarm of 3-6, or 2-4 Hound Archons.
Open 5th (use at bedtime as a lower-level extended metamagic 24 hour spell)

6th Level Divine Spells 2+D
(D)omain spell
Heal <--- great spell! single target +120 HP & healall
Open slot or Summon Monster VI (multiple pouncing dire tigers or 3-6 Hound Archons)

The above spell list is intended as the default 'what I prepare on a normal day'. Change it based on what are your Domain spells. Change it around based on what's happening. Prepare Open spell slots to specific spells whenever you have 15 minutes of meditation time to spare.

The Evangelist cleric is a terrible healer. Your Channels suck, except for the great buff effect. You must prepare healing spells. A fully-charged Cure Light Wounds wand can heal more total HP than you can. A life oracle can put you to shame in total HP cured. Your default list has only three healing spells prepared: Cure Moderate Wounds, Breath of Life, and Heal. Until you load Summon Monster VI you still have the option to grab a 2nd heal. So, this terrible healer can revive dead allies in combat, and can cast two Heal spells.

Lantern Lodge

Isn't there a Summon Neutral Monster feat in Champions of Balance?

Grand Lodge

About the only thing I would change is Protection from Energy. I don't like to overlap Resist energy and Protection from Energy. I would probably Replace it with Prayer or something that doesn't overlap and has no Save. Not to mention When Bardic perform becomes a move action you can: Summon round 1, Prayer+Perform to boost up your summons further.

Don't forget to use your Blessing of Fervor to extend your 2nd level and lower spells. if you get a few rounds before it wears off. Shield of Faith, Protection from energy, Weapon of Awe, Resist energy, Bull's strength (any 2nd level animal buff). Almost worth blowing a blessing of Fervor on a weak fight just to buff for the rest of the dungeon.


My biggest issue with the Evangelist is the fact that you lose the ability to spontaneously cast a heal spell. Since you are going more a support/buffer role maybe that isn't so much a issue. A slightly different route would be to take the bodyguard feat, basically you can use a attack of opp to give a ally the aid another bonus (+2) I would take fate's favored and adopted (halfling) for the helpful trait, now your bodyguard feat will give your ally +4ac, its still early and I'm drawing a blank, but there is a armor enhancement you can get that adds to that. My GM REALLY dreaded my character :)

Personally that gives your character something to do with your attacks of opp every round, we flavored the bodyguard feat so that my cleric cast a quick cantrip...err orison to give the bonus (same rules just a flavor change) But to summon a creature, buff the party and give 4+ to ac against multiple attacks sounds pretty good to me :)


Magda Luckbender wrote:

Evangelist clerics have weak channeling. Only 4d6 at 12th level. The OP's plan calls for Variant Channeling (Bravery/Valor).

Variant Channeling (Bravery/Valor) wrote:
Bravery/Valor: Heal—Creatures affected by fear may attempt another saving throw and receive a channel bonus on the roll. A creature unaffected by fear gains a channel bonus to its Armor Class until the end of your next turn and on its attack roll if it makes a charge attack before your next turn. Harm—This works like a standard channel (not halved).
Allies will get +4 AC and +4 to hit on a charge attack. Only 2d6 healing. Selective channeling is not needed in this case.

As far as I can see, Variant Channeling still affects everyone in its area, so Selective Channel is needed to make sure you don't buff your enemies.


Trogdar wrote:
creatures of your exact alignment can be summoned as a standard action instead of a full round action.

No, this is not what the feat says.

Corvino wrote:
Sacred Summons only lets you summon creature with the same alignment (so CG) as your aura as a standard action

No again, not what the feat says.

Sacred Summons allows you to summon creatures whose alignment subtype matches your aura. Your aura matches your god's alignment. Your own alignment can be one step away from your god's alignment. Read the guide, it tells you all the details. And gives you ways to pitch it to your DM for easier house rules.


You are correct Slacker2010, I was posting pretty late at night. Your Aura is indeed that of your deity's alignment, not yours.


Thank you, guys. This is really helpful.

Really appreciate it.

Silver Crusade

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
About the only thing I would change is Protection from Energy (PfE). I don't like to overlap Resist energy and Protection from Energy.

Prayer would be an excellent substitute for PfE. Personally, I like the ability to make someone immune to one type of elemental damage, then protect the entire party to a lesser degree. The OP said his party has been taking huge damage and he's looking for ways to mitigate damage. Personal preference.

Regarding feats, note that the OP is already feat-starved. He wants all four summoning feats, two martial feats (Power Attack & Combat Reflexes), and the big damage mitigation feat Divine Interference. That leaves him no fat to cut. Bodyguard would be nice (although my PC with Bodyguard wasn't able to use it very often), Selective Channel would be nice, Quick Channel would be nice. Any of those come at the cost of a core competency, either summoning or martial. Maybe the benefit from one or the other would be worth losing a core feat. Maybe not. Swapping say, Combat Reflexes, for, say, Quick Channel might pay off, but would mean a 20%-30% reduction in personal martial damage inflicted, as you will miss out on some AoOs and some flat-footed attacks.

Shadow Lodge

Undead Slayers Guide has a Ring for 9,000gp that lets you quick Channel 1/day and also adds 5ft to area all the time.

Might be well worth it.

Might also drop PA, personally. I dont think it will help you keep up as a Summoner/Support Cleric.


Yeah, I'm not beholden to any of the feats I chose. Power Attack is iffy since dealing damage is not my primary concern, though Combat Reflexes seems like a must.

Quick Channel doesn't seem like it's worth it yet, not when I only have a handful of Channels a day and the buff is only for one round.

Grand Lodge

Quote:
The OP said his party has been taking huge damage and he's looking for ways to mitigate damage.

Isn't that the point of summoning tho? To summon up a meat shield to take a few blows for the party as well as do a good bit of damage? Yeah I understand the idea of making one person basically immune and it does come down to preference.

I know the OP wants martial abilities but After playing so many clerics I've come away from trying to swing a weapon. Self Buffs that make you good in combat usually only last Rounds per Level. I also feel cleric DPR is low and not worth the spells spent on myself and the gold to upkeep my weapon and armors. I've come to the point of being a full caster or a summoner cleric. But the OP wants those Melee Abilities to provoke AoO. Its a good strategy for first 11 levels where you will hit more often but at later levels the damage is just so Blah compared to any Cleric who can cast Blade barrier and lets a summoned creature bull rush mobs into the blade barrier.

I've tried the channel/heal bot as well and came to the same conclusion that most the community has come to. Damage out weighs Healing and it is better to prevent damages and status problems then to just try to heal through and play Band-aid.

Quote:
That leaves him no fat to cut.

Totally right about that. I would avoid Selective channel, Quicken channel, and Body guard all together because by the time you select them they will be all but useless. He is currently looking like:

H-Combat reflexes
1-Spell focus- Conjuration
3-Power attack
5-Augmented summons
7-Sacred Summons
9-Superior Summons
11-Divine Intervention
(if it goes any higher)
13- I would assume Quicken Spell Here regardless Type of cleric
15-?
17-?


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I think Power Attack will serve you well later on in your career. Combat Reflexes should come first and it is a must. I do think Power Attack will help your damage significantly. After you Summon your creatures you can drop a first level divine favor and start using power attack. Great thing about the build is you can cast on your turn and attack (with your AoOs) on their turn.


Yeah, I don't anticipate doing much melee-ing pretty soon here and will most likely take a back ranks role soon enough.

Manipulating the summons will be the bulk of my role, with the rare damage dealing spell when I have no more buffs to put out. That's the place I'd like to be.

Is there anything like the Ring of Wizardry for Divine Casters?

Shadow Lodge

The problem with Power Attack is that at the OP's level, they have really gotten beyond the point that they will be just attacking very often. Even with Reach and Combat Reflexes, a lot of enemies are smart enough to avoid drawing too many AoO's. It should still be good idea, but it might not be as useful as it would have been say 5 levels ago.

Plus, the idea that most of their attacks will come from AoO's, PA might not even apply most of the time, (and for a two hander, we are looking at -3 to hit, +6 damage). It's iffy, but as the goal is to be a Support and Summoner, I don't think it would be a good investment. Divine Intervention, again, I'm not sure. It sort of cover what they already kind of aim to focus on. Which isn't bad.

Dodge and Mobility might be a good investment. Maybe check out some of the faith specific feats, too? Spell Penetration may be a must have, depending on your game.

I'd talk to the DM first, about the last few Feats, and see if they have any input, or might allow you to leave a few Feat Slots open and see what sorts of things might be useful.

Grand Lodge

If your not doing melee at all then free up your 2 Feats and go full caster/buffer. Keep the summoning feats but dump the strength in favor of casting stats.

Quote:
Is there anything like the Ring of Wizardry for Divine Casters?

Nothing Exactly like that unless your DM house rules that there is Rings of Clergy that mimics a Ring of Wizardry but works for Divine Casters only.

BUT there are a lot of items that would work well on a caster cleric as they would on a arcane caster. Robe of Runes comes to mind. Ioun stones, Spell guard bracers, Dweomer's Essence
A big thing I like on a cleric is a Ring of Telekinesis. It allows you to do combat maneuvers at ranged and bull rush people around the field. Bull rush goes well with a blade barrier getting them to pass through it multiple times.
Just sit down and find the items that will help you and your play style the most.

Shadow Lodge

modicasolis wrote:
Is there anything like the Ring of Wizardry for Divine Casters?

No. Cleric's kind of get shafted when it comes to gear. There just is not a lot of stuff out there really designed for them, and what there is tends to focus on making them a better Healbot Cleric.

A few items you will probably want:

Pearl of Power, probably 1 & 3, (but if you have a good 2nd level Domain spell, 2 as well). Don't need to have it out or in hand. Just leave it in your pouch/backpack).

Headband of Mental Prowess (Wis & Cha +4, 40,000) WITH a Phylactery of Channeling (11,000 x1.5 <16,500>). Total = 56,500gp

(standard) Strand of Prayer Beads = 45,800 Karma is the one you want, but a secondary cool effect is that this can also act as a expensive Divine Focus for a few spells.

Ring of Feather Falling (2,200) OR Evasion (25,000 Light armor only and pricey) with a

Ring of Protected Life (Undead Slayers):
This silver ring features arboreal motifs, and is set with a small
but brilliant sapphire. If the wearer has the channel energy
class feature, the radius of his channeled energy increases
by 5 feet. Additionally, when the wearer channels energy, he
may choose to exempt one creature from the effects of his
channeling. If the wearer has the Selective Channeling feat,
the ring of protected life increases the number of creatures he
may normally exempt by one. Finally, once per day the wearer
may channel energy as a swift action that does not provoke
attacks of opportunity; doing so renders the ring of protected
life inert for 24 hours, during which time it does not confer
any benefits.

+1 Glamoured, Slick <Mithral, Agile Breastplate> of Heavy Fortification = 42,550 <not including armor or Mithral> And a Magic Vestment (with Prayer Bead (karma) to make that a +4 version instead of +1 for 16 hours a day. Might be worth doubling up on this to avid it being Dispelled.

+1 <Weapon>, with as many other bonuses as you can get. Corrosive, Ghost Touch, Keen, & Holy = 72,000 <not including weapon> And again, Prayer Beads (Karma) and Greater Magical Weapon make this a +4 weapon for 16 hours a day. Might be worth doubling up on this spell to avoid it being Dispelled.

A backup (or Ranged) +1 Weapon?

Bag of Holding (or 2).

A few Scrolls of uncommon, but possibly brutal affects. Remove Curse/Disease/Poison. Communal energy Resistance. Things like that. Just keep in mind you want to avoid spells you will normally prep, and find out through play what is common or not. Common ones you want to prep for. Uncommon ones you want to have a scroll for, (usually).


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
If your not doing melee at all then free up your 2 Feats and go full caster/buffer. Keep the summoning feats but dump the strength in favor of casting stats.

I'd prefer, really, to do most of my duties through casting and less with melee, but I'd read that caster or support Clerics weren't as effective without some kind of martial backup route and the Reach Cleric seemed like the best choice.

Grand Lodge

Quote:
I'd prefer, really, to do most of my duties through casting and less with melee, but I'd read that caster or support Clerics weren't as effective without some kind of martial backup route and the Reach Cleric seemed like the best choice.

Divine Trident gives you a lightning blade that attacks on touch and does a set amount of damage. Mix that with your Summons that can do the damage for you your still putting up better numbers.

Shadow Lodge

Also, it requires DM approval, but the most useful item in the game:

Continual Flames spell Heightened to 9h level (20 CL) = 1,850.
Automatically defeats all other Darkness spells unless they are also 9th level, in which both do not work and the normal light level of the area kicks in. Basically, the no more darkness.

Shadow Lodge

modicasolis wrote:
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
If your not doing melee at all then free up your 2 Feats and go full caster/buffer. Keep the summoning feats but dump the strength in favor of casting stats.
I'd prefer, really, to do most of my duties through casting and less with melee, but I'd read that caster or support Clerics weren't as effective without some kind of martial backup route and the Reach Cleric seemed like the best choice.

This it true, to a point. One of the Cleric's most strong suits as a class is the ability to step into many roles fairly well and easily. By just changing out your spells, you can step into a full caster roll, or a tank roll. You will not be as good as a Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger tank or a Wizard caster, but you can do it, and moderately well. What works so well with the Reach Cleric, (I've played 2 now, and never going back :) ), is that they are so easy to build into, naturally play into the classes strengths/weaknesses, and does not require much investment, so you can easily build for other things, too. Support and Control are fairly easy. Summoning is a really good fit. But nearly everything works.

Grand Lodge

I like that Continual Flame lol. Tho my DM would say not unless I create it. Not many casters with 9th level spells out there making these things available. He is rather strict on buying Magic items with high caster levels. Plays it hard mode. Tho if I am ever crafting again I'm freaking making one of those.

Shadow Lodge

Even Heightening it to 6th or 7th can work really, really well. Its not "undefeatable" , but still good enough. I descvered that trick back in 3.5 with the Raven Knight PC which gets an ability to cast all Light spells and have them treated as 1 spell level higher, literally meaning it beats all nonEpic Darkess.

Its also not actually a "magic item", its an Everburning Torch at a high level. Problem is, Heighten Spell basically really sucks as a Feat outside of rare things like this. In most of my home games, we just play so that all casters get it for free.

And being a 12th Level Cleric, Im not sure finding a 17th - 20th Level Cleric or Wizard would be that difficult. Not easy, but doable.


If you do take Heighten spell it is not that great on it's own, but does allow you to take Preferred Spell which can be very useful.

Shadow Lodge

Don't want to go too far off topic with this, but Clerics are really Feat Starved in PF. Wizards get their Bonus Feats, so it's not too bad. For Clerics, I probably wouldn't consider that route unless they have a really cool Domain Spell, but even then, I might be more inclined to simply fill up higher level Domain Slots (not Heightened) for that, or go with a Pearl of Power.


If you're able to buy whatever you want with your WBL you might consider a Metamagic Rod of Echoing Spell since it would allow you to effectively double your 6th level spell slots.

If you'd like to take Bodyguard but can't find the feats you could consider taking the Animal domain and making your animal companion the Bodyguard. If you are willing to spend a feat on Boon Companion the animal companion could also be pretty good as an attacker and "always on" melee backup. Obviously it would hurt a little giving up +2's from the Heroism domain, but a wand of Good Hope is under 16,000gp, and maybe other PCs would pitch in for it. Your animal could also wear a menacing amulet and flank with the summoned monsters to give them +4 to hit instead of +2 (I guess +6 total with Good Hope)

If you want to really go nuts you could consider Eldritch Heritage and Improved Familiar for some help buffing the summoned monsters and animal companion faster as well as handling the boring healing duties Clerics are often called upon to deliver.

Silver Crusade

What they said ^^^ The OP has a great selection of feats at 12th level. Any trade outs will probably reduce overall effectiveness. His build is lean and mean. He has no extra feat slots.

Regarding Power Attack, numbers quoted above are wrong. A level 12 Cleric has a BaB of +9, so his Power Attack is -3 to hit and +9 to damage. Un-buffed he'll only be about +12 to hit, but he can buff up above +20, so he'll hit just fine. Note that Power Attack does apply to AoOs - that's not in question. The math strongly favors using Power Attack most of the time, so just have it always on.

I imagine he'll have plenty of occasions to wade into combat, especially to conserve resources in later combat rounds. His personal melee damage output can be greater than what one of his super-summons spells inflicts. AoOs will be feast or famine, per fight.

This 12th level Evangelist Cleric build has these techniques to mitigate damage to the party:

1. Summoned Monsters draw enemy attacks away from the PCs
2. Divine Intervention can prevent most critical hits (by the GM) within 30'
3. Spells provide excellent protection from energy damage, given some warning
4. Martial ability slays enemies and provides the usual polearm fighter control zone.
5. Assorted other buffs, such as Inspire Courage, +4 AC from variant channeling, et cetera.
6. As a last resort, Breath of Life and Heal. Other minor curative and restorative effects.

That should help!


Last question. So I'm putting the actual character together right now. In ust judging how previous games have gone, AOOs don't happen too often unless we are the ones triggering them. As a result, I'm leaning towards more of a buffing/support focus.

How should I lay out my ability points?

The first iteration of this Cleric (with gear and 25 point buy) came out to:
22 STR | 18 DEX | 18 CON | 10 INT | 16 WIS | 12 CHA

I'm thinking about rearranging that somewhat. If I were to keep the exact same numbers, I was thinking something like:
18 STR | 16 DEX | 18 CON | 10 INT | 20 WIS | 14 CHA

This would give me an extra Channel, more bonus spells, and higher DCs for the occasional spell that involves a Save DC (such as some of the Spontaneous Evangelist spells or some of my Domain spells).

This might be spreading things too thin, however. My melee power goes down pretty sharply. Then again, my melee abilities are mostly related to buffs and magic effects anyway, right?

Grand Lodge

A clerics melee might comes from spells yes. Most those spells only last Rounds per Level. Doing reach style cleric "might" offer you an AoO if the opponent decides to provoke. If they don't you can then use your buff the next round if you don't find a better use for your standard action.

I'd still just go the route of a Summon specialized Evangelist cleric and never worry about drawing a weapon unless your setting up a flank. Other then that I find clerics swinging weapons is not the optimal way to roll. It can work and will work....but I prefer never wading into combat unless it is a extreme last resort. And if it is a last resort I will cast Divine Trident and attack their Touch AC or I will just plane shift them to another plane.

Your summoned critters will do a LOT of work damage wise and providing meat on the field. Save your money on some ridiculous weapon and put it towards future Rod purchases.

Silver Crusade

I'd surely go with the 2nd stat block.

The difference in melee ability for 22 STR vs 18 STR is small (~10%):

You have big static bonuses to hit and damage. +4 STR is only a 10% difference in damage output.

First, your weapon. For the cost of a +2 weapon (8k gp) you can make yours +4 to hit and +5 damage plus 1d6 damage or better. The cheap Grayflame enchantment, on top of a +1 weapon, gets you a swift action outlet for your channels. Combined with your own Greater Magic Weapon this makes your weapon +4 to hit for +1d6+5 damage, for the price of a +2 weapon. The Divine Warrior trait stacks with this, for possible +4 to hit +1d6+6 damage on your weapon. All told your weapon enhancements are +4 to hit for about +9 damage and cuts through most DR. Cheap.

STR 22 gives you about +19 to hit for average +29 damage. To hit that's +9 BaB, -3 power Attack, +6 STR, +4 weapon enhancement, +3 Inspire Courage. For damage that's +9 STR, +9 Power Attack, +3 Inspire Courage, and +8 weapon enhancement & grayflame. With STR 18 you only attack at +17 to hit for +26 damage. That's about a 10% difference in martial damage output.

A few buff spells can increase your static bonuses even more, so the strength matters even less. Weapon of Awe (2nd level divine) plus Divine Favor (1st level divine) gives you another +3 to hit and +5 damage that stacks. With a mere 18 STR you buff out at +20 to hit for about +33 damage.

The higher Wisdom is great. By 12th level your spells are quite strong. 20 WIS gets you another Summon Monster V, which is your best offensive spell. Seems wise to get the five channels, even if they are only 4d6 each. They are sufficient to power Grayflame and have some left for buffing and healing.

The only thing AoO fishing costs you is a shield. You can even enchant (with Magic Vestment and Extend metamagic with Open 3rd level spell slot the night before) your own +3 enhancement masterwork buckler(cost 300 gp). This trades +4 shield AC for -1 to hit.

If you want to remain melee-heavy keep Combat Reflexes. If you think you won't see many AoOs then maybe drop it. Keep Power Attack either way, as you want that extra +9 damage.

Damage output from your summons versus your own melee attacks:

Your best augmented superior sacred summons spell is Summon Monster V. You can carry several. How do these stack up against your own melee?

SM5 Lantern Archons gets you about 58 hp in ranged touch attacks each round.

SM5 Hound Archons gets you about 90 hp in melee attacks.

You can full attack for three attacks (enhanced), each hitting for about 37 HP. That's 111 HP in melee attacks, with better chance to hit than the Hound Archons.

On any given combat round you can usually inflict more damage with a full attack than even your best summons can hope for. The summons are great for longer combats, where their damage adds up and they soak up damage.

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