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Saying they had fun is all well and good but part of me wonders if any of them realise what has been going on and how badly you actually messed things up.
Or if he's just oblivious to how his players feel and/or has them cowed into submission. Or, if one wants to be completely uncharitable, that there's dishonesty in the claim.
Also, newsflash for those that weren't aware: I'm a self-important windbag who got bored and didn't read. I get what I deserve (the oh-so-buttery-delicious sound of my own voice ... er... fingers... clacking... on... the... keyboard. Yes. The "buttery" sound of... okay, ew, now I have to clean my keyboard... butter makes all the keys stick...)
I would have the players read this thread and post their comments though. If they are decent roleplayers there should be no difficulty separating in game and out of game knowledge, especially a few sessions after.
I think getting some feedback from the players would be very, very interesting. At the moment I can't help thinking that ignorance is bliss in that party.
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I still take posts on faith. And to be fair, in the face of such...passionate discourse by netland, the OP has been civil.
Of course he has. Because riling people up was exactly what he wanted. Why wouldn't he be pleased as punch by "passionate discourse"?
I just love that it seems everyone in the "kingdom"* of Varisia (still trying to figure out when Varisia got one) knew about this mythical tribe of good and literate but non-common speaking goblins pacafists... except the party.
*I'm honestly curious about this. How did it come about? How is it handled in game? Who is the King? Is Magnimar, the "Free City" the capital? What happened to the Mayor? Is the Mayor the King? Is Korvosa pissed that they are no longer a city state? What happened to their King/Queen (depending on time line)? Are they now a duke/duchess? Is Kaer Maga pissed that they are no longer a city state? Did the King ban troll seers and zombie slaves in Kaer Maga?
As I said, I am truly curious how a Varisian "Kingdom" is adjuticated.
Meh...I still wanna see the Paladin's Code drawn up between player and GM.
Have to say I hate this DM created, artificial paladin dilemmas...
Why at all add an good Goblin tribe?
The goblins are supposed to be the bad guys in this module.
It's like adding a scene to Star Wars were Palpadin tried to safe Alderan or adding some scene to Game of Thrones were Jofrey is the Lawful good guy, who sacrifice himself for an orphant child...
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Mulet, I'd like for you to allow your players to comment on this thread.
I couldnt't put my finger on it, but this thread and its sister thread had been somewhat unsettling for me (although amusing). Then I looked up the OPs thread history and found this little gem: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpwv?How-to-deal-with-a-half-assed-paladin ;-)
Conclusion: Don't allow Paladins if you can't handle/don't want to handle them.
I remember that one.
Btw, this actually helps put some context to the paladins decision to not take money from the bank. If Mulet was ready to make his paladin fall for gambling, I'd be pretty uneasy too taking money from the bank. Not because I'd be good role play, but because it'd feel like a trap.
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Also, newsflash for those that weren't aware: I'm a self-important windbag who got bored and didn't read. I get what I deserve (the oh-so-buttery-delicious sound of my ownvoice... er... fingers... clacking... on... the... keyboard. Yes. The "buttery" sound of... okay, ew, now I have to clean my keyboard... butter makes all the keys stick...)
Is this the beginning of one of those Geico commercials where someone next says "Well EVERYONE knows that"? :P
It would be interesting to hear from the players since it has been 'resolved' in game and it probably wouldn't matter if they saw this thread now.
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It would be interesting to hear from the players since it has been 'resolved' in game and it probably wouldn't matter if they saw this thread now.
If they saw this thread and the previous ones by the OP, they would probably be very upset that they are suffering through this blatant targeting of party members. I would leave the game if I was playing the paladin and was treated/tricked this way. It isn't "interesting roleplay" or "challenging the party's notions", it is forcibly controlling the story by removing any thought of the PCs having choices.
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We are a level 9 adventuring party and recently liberated an ancient dam. Trolls and Ogres and Giant had been destroying it and causing the dam to malfunction which in turn was causing nearby settlements to flood.
While the smart people were figuring out the mechanism to get the dam running again I opened the final door to the complex and found inside two summoning circles.
One had a pile of ash; the other a Pit Fiend.
We figured out that the dam was worked by draining the life out of the Pit Fiend. Each time we pulled one of the levers to open one of the flood gates the devil experienced excruciating pain. He begged for release.
I have 2 levels in Paladin and identify as a Paladin.
My Detect Evil stunned me for a single round.
Sizing up the creature the DM told us that even though he was severely wounded he still had hundreds of HP left giving us the impression that even in this state the creature would be a formidable foe at our level and most likely kill us.
The summoning circle was the only thing keeping the creature at bay; but it could easily be disrupted; freeing this evil creature on our plane.
Looking at the situation I could see few options...
We could try and kill him; but he would most likely kill us and we would risk freeing him.
We could leave him then come back when we had the levels to deal with him but someone could find him and free him.
We could leave the machines running in some permanent way; giving him the slow, painful, torturous death he most like deserved.
or ... our Cleric gave me the option that he could banish him to his home plane.
They all looked to me. I chose the last option. Why? Because my character was unwilling to torture to death even something as evil as this thing before me. I asked the creature for this I wanted him to never return to the material plane, telling him flat out that I never believed that he would honor that. If I saw him again though; I would kill him.
THAT is how you set up a moral dilemma.
Anyway; I don't think this 'mullet' is here anymore and he seems to ignore any posts that don't align with his way of thinking.
Moral Dilemma's are something that break all Paladins. Either choice is a bad one, and as a DM, I'd only ever throw one at the PC if I needed to strip his powers for a while for a unique encounter, or for a particular story arc. However if he survives it, he can just use atonement to restore, since it was with a heavy heart he did what he did.
Then the PC could play their character with that 1000 mile stare...
"I've seen things man. Terrible things. And done worse..." followed by a long draw from his pipe.
Admitting to giving fall-fall decisions with excitement may not be taken well. Pre meditated narrative for someone else's character and their personality also isn't that amazing imo.
He kept it on the down low, since most people would say "Pfffft, let the king take that risk near somebody else's town and family." and then go slaughter the Goblins themselves.
So, it makes more sense not to tell anyone about the good goblin tribe, so that they won't kill them, but there are six goblin tribes that are evil in the area no one has slain yet and this one can easily get mixed up with. Weird king and weird npcs.
On a different note, some parts of the game sound really cool. First group I was ever in had 2 GMs. Just... Some questionable decisions here and there and I'm not sure if its being communicated well or if I'm missing something.
What's this thread about anymore anyway?
It would be interesting to hear from the players since it has been 'resolved' in game and it probably wouldn't matter if they saw this thread now.I mention my posts at most sessions. I use spoiler tags, and never post about stuff that ESSENTIAL to the story. When I bring up the paizo forums, they tend to say
"Let me guess. Kill his character?", in reference to my older posts getting a lot of "Just kill the character" sort of replies. It's actually an in joke for us...
So the players hear about us. What does that have to do with us wanting to hear from the players?
4. You say the paladin shot first. If so the paladin should have fallen the second that arrow left his bowstring, which is about as big a "you dun f+*%ed up now" sign as a paladin can get. However, apparently Erastil was busy watching Army Wives or something since he waited till all 20-something goblins were dead...
"Damn it, why do the paladins always pull this s#+~ during Prime Time?"
He kept it on the down low, since most people would say "Pfffft, let the king take that risk near somebody else's town and family." and then go slaughter the Goblins themselves.
And yet Shalelu knew, the Mayor knew, enough people knew that the PCs could be prosecuted...all without the PCs' legal team (probably the bard, ironically) pointing out, "Hey, b&+*~@**, that king covered this up from the citizens of Sandpoint and it's his own fault this misunderstanding occurred."
...or is the bard still in Sandpoint getting drunk off his ass?
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So the players hear about us. What does that have to do with us wanting to hear from the players?It would be interesting to hear from the players since it has been 'resolved' in game and it probably wouldn't matter if they saw this thread now.I mention my posts at most sessions. I use spoiler tags, and never post about stuff that ESSENTIAL to the story. When I bring up the paizo forums, they tend to say
"Let me guess. Kill his character?", in reference to my older posts getting a lot of "Just kill the character" sort of replies. It's actually an in joke for us...
Yeah he tells the players that the forums tell him to just kill the characters instead of stop being a jerk and forcing the characters to make errors in judgement because he didn't give them any of the info they needed and forced them to act in the way the GM wanted to have a PC lose his powers like the GM wanted.
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It would be interesting to hear from the players since it has been 'resolved' in game and it probably wouldn't matter if they saw this thread now.I mention my posts at most sessions. I use spoiler tags, and never post about stuff that ESSENTIAL to the story. When I bring up the paizo forums, they tend to say
"Let me guess. Kill his character?", in reference to my older posts getting a lot of "Just kill the character" sort of replies. It's actually an in joke for us...
If the forums are a joke to you and your group . . . why do you bother posting questions on the forum?
I'm glad things worked out for your group, and it sounds like you do have a very different type of group from the rest of us, but I can't shake the feeling that the forum doesn't get the true players' stories, and you are skewing the forum's response to the players. Add me to the group that would like to see a response from your players after reading this thread in its entirety.
It would be interesting to hear from the players since it has been 'resolved' in game and it probably wouldn't matter if they saw this thread now.I mention my posts at most sessions. I use spoiler tags, and never post about stuff that ESSENTIAL to the story. When I bring up the paizo forums, they tend to say
"Let me guess. Kill his character?", in reference to my older posts getting a lot of "Just kill the character" sort of replies. It's actually an in joke for us...
If the forums are a joke to you and your group . . . why do you bother posting questions on the forum?
I'm glad things worked out for your group, and it sounds like you do have a very different type of group from the rest of us, but I can't shake the feeling that the forum doesn't get the true players' stories, and you are skewing the forum's response to the players. Add me to the group that would like to see a response from your players after reading this thread in its entirety.
this. So much this.
A high fantasy setting, that lacks a centralized government is just.... weird. Every book I have read always has one. Heck, a Song of Ice and Fire has too many!Golarion is chockablock with centralised governments. Varisia happens to be a wild frontier region that has only been colonised for a couple of hundred years, hence the absence of a single central authority.
Nobody looks at 17th century North America and says, "Whats with these competing colonies, why isn't there a king and an organised central government?" There are kings and central government elsewhere in the world in the established nations, whether they be in Spain and England or Cheliax and Taldor.
How long did it take for America to form a centralized government? Why can't a GM do that with Golarion if they choose?
I'm late on this by a bit it seems, and didn't read through the whole thing (looks like it got a long way from the ex-paladin issue), but the idea that 1 day and 1 night on labor would anywhere equate to 2,500gp in offerings to a deity is ridiculous at best. If not appeasing directly to the god, he's going to have to show MAJOR repentance to undue the bad-will he has created. We're not talking about cleaning up the dead bodies and giving them a proper burial, we're talking about ensuring prosperity for the survivors and enabling their recovery to a thriving tribe again.
Now, normally, a deity might be a little more lenient if the action was truly due to misinformation - however, there was no misinformation here, there was simply the idea that because this village is goblins, they must be evil. If the deity itself felt this way, that might be acceptable, but I'm doubting that is the case.
Now, normally, a deity might be a little more lenient if the action was truly due to misinformation - however, there was no misinformation here, there was simply the idea that because this village is goblins, they must be evil. If the deity itself felt this way, that might be acceptable, but I'm doubting that is the case.
The deity cares neither one way or the either. For the deity is a pile of text.
Now, normally, a deity might be a little more lenient if the action was truly due to misinformation - however, there was no misinformation here, there was simply the idea that because this village is goblins, they must be evil. If the deity itself felt this way, that might be acceptable, but I'm doubting that is the case.
I suggest you do read through the whole thread. There was definite misinformation.
For instance they were all told of every evil goblin tribe in the area except the 1 good tribe that was an exception. They were told by Nualia (who they didn't realize was evil) of an evil goblin tribe that was causing harm, and they had no way of communicating with the tribe in question.
To make matters worse, the GM didn't give the paladin any warning after the first act of killing the good goblins. Instead he let the paladin keep his powers and continue smiting his way through the whole tribe before worrying over having the paladin fall. Where was his deity? Was she busy doing something else, or does she regularly let her paladins wipe out a whole village before punishing them?
In other words, there was a lot wrong with how this entire event went down, including significant misinformation.
What I saw was that they slaughtered the children running out of a school, and tortured the town leader as he plead for mercy. Even if they did believe them evil, that still isn't Paladin quality action.
What I saw was that they slaughtered the children running out of a school, and tortured the town leader as he plead for mercy. Even if they did believe them evil, that still isn't Paladin quality action.
That's how Mulet describes it, I can't help but wonder if that's how the players experienced it. I'm having trouble shaking the feeling that we're getting the "edited" version of how this all came to be. For instance look at the way he describes the elder's death: "The village Elder was put inside a flaming sphere while he begged for his town with tears in his eyes." On first pass that sounds like torture, but it could also simply mean that the Elder was hit by a flaming sphere mid-combat. Nothing particularly malicious about it other than that using fire in combat is generally nasty.
It should also be noted that in addition to the deliberate misinformation by various NPCs the GM repeatedly ignored rules that would have given the players a clue that something was wrong:
The party were cheated of sixteen "something is wrong here" Sense Motive/Perception checks during the meeting with Nualia. Considering Nualia's Disguise and Bluff bonus is a grand total of +3, I'm reasonably sure they would have caught onto something in that exchange.
The 20-something strong goblin tribe didn't have a single member who could speak Common, despite it being a common language for normal goblins to pick up and these particular goblins clearly have more interaction with civilization than the typical goblin tribe.
As has already been noted, the paladin should have fallen the second he fired off the arrow that injured the first goblin. And since the paladin apparently started the encounter... It should have started and ended in the same round, with 1 injured/dead goblin - not 20.
Mulet is running an adventure path where the main threat and most prominent foe is goblins. They were told point-blank by Nualia that the local goblin village was evil and given no chance to find out if the information was wrong, people they care about and the local communities have been repeatedly attacked by goblins, and the people who had the information specifically disregarded telling them there was a good goblin tribe while going into some detail about the six other goblin tribes in the area that are all entirely evil and significant threats.
Furthermore Mulet has stated that he set the whole thing up because he wanted the party to "despise" Nualia. I think it's a classic case of extreme railroading combined with vicious GMing, with just a dash of paladin hate for good measure.
Don't forget the OPs previous thread about how he wants to make the Paladin PC fall and such....
For gambling (not cheating at gambling - normal small stakes card game) once and not buying some guy a beer. Yeah, that was an interesting read.
Suffice to say I'm inclined to give Mulet's party the benefit of the doubt.
I'm having trouble shaking the feeling that we're getting the "edited" version of how this all came to be.
Welcome to the internet. Would you give the details that made you look at fault?
Don't forget the OPs previous thread about how he wants to make the Paladin PC fall and such....
He admitted to wanting it to happen in this thread too.
Edit: And they're being punished for helping the village now...
The King's advisors recommended the party be put to the Sword, but the King was just and said they have 7 days to go bring Naulia before him, dead or alive (preferably alive). And they must restore Ravenroost, beginning with rebuilding the village, and safely escorting a known small group of good goblins to live in the restored Ravenroost. They also have Arcane marks on their hands, bound by a permanency spell each, to can function at locators for the king's magical guard.
Because why offer the players a plot hook to nibble on when you can grab the hook and plunge it into their forehead.
It's much easier to drag them along the plot railway when you have that hook firmly attached, after all. Waste less bait too!
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despite my better judgement (after reading the entire post... all 6 pages) im going to go ahead and say two things. first, i feel like the players have suffered a great injustice in this encounter. they were set up by someone that they are intrinsically inclined to trust and tricked into committing an atrocity. there should have been AMPLE warning for all of the players that this should not occur, and there should have been a multitude of chances for the actions to be stopped. when a pc commits an evil act, or states that he is about to commit one, it is the GM's duty to warn them of the consequences of their actions. if a CN cleric that channels negative says that he wants to channel to harm the bad guy they're fighting in a bar, he should be notified that his channeling could possibly harm and or kill innocents, and it will possibly result in an alignment shift towards evil, and it is his (as a player) choice to continue with the action, or find another way. after the first arrow left the paladins bow and hit the goblin, your job as GM was to tell him that he had just committed an evil act (there are spells and items that warn you ahead of time, in case you really want to be a nazi about it and not warn him early, and ill give you the BOTD that he didnt have any of these items, so i said after) in slaying a good aligned creature, and that any further actions would lead to an alignment shift. YOU, as GM, SET THE PARTY UP FOR THIS TO HAPPEN. that is horrible. the GM is the guy you look for to lead you as a party. he makes up the story, and tells you what you're doing. he gives you quests. yes, there is room for deception, but a GM should never deceive his players with malicious intent (by the way, setting up a player for his paladin to fall with the intent of this happening no matter what is wrong. i dont care if he's a thorn in your side, if you're tired of his damage, find another way, dont just break his character. if i were that player i would not only leave your party, i would never play under you again. the things ive read and seen from your are aweful, and i personally think that your other gm should take control, and you should just build a character. maybe a CN rogue who hates paladins and does everything he can to undermine him, you'd probably have more fun)
second. this is why my inquisitor always talks before he shoots, and this is why he refuses to kill anything that can speak and defend itself until he's been provoked. and my party laughed at me when i took huge penalties to only knock out the goblins instead of killing them. eat it xD
I'm glad I skipped past the second page to Soul's post, because it sums up my opinion nicely! Trust is something that is a big part of gaming, and unless your players expect you to play serious mind games with them, well. My initial reaction was, "wait, Paladins are CONSTANTLY scanning for evil!" they don't just wait till something breaths fire to say-"oh, I guess I'll use the ability that is intrinsic to my way of life now". And don't think that in their spare time they aren't casting about with the detect charm spell too as much as possible as soon as they can get it. LAWFUL GOOD. Sigh...now if you are going to play this one as the evil deity of tricksters got involved, sure, but last I checked our villain's domains are Demon and Ferocity, not Insanity and Deception. How, by the way, do you justify that a high(er) level Ranger has not found this village, spending days doing recon and such in the area as she has? So many loopholes all designed for setting your players up. I am impressed with the lighting trick and such but if this is what you are into maybe something a bit darker of a game is in order (the Lovecraftish ones?), or Soul's suggestion to get out of the DMing for a while and play (I would suggest an Anti Paladin actually).
But what I really detect out of your posts is some gloating and some guilt. I'm not going to touch the former in the interest of keeping posts fun and friendly, but I will say that YOU are the one that needs to figure out a way to clean up this mess for the party, not them. YOU need to fix this by either telling them they are in for a wild unpredictable ride (of the bad kind) or make this all a dream sequence sent to them by some demonic entity to shake them up before the coming conflicts, call it a battle between deific forces in which they were pawns and that is wiped clean and reset by the gods, whatever. How is your group ever going to trust you again if you don't? I'm betting you are sensing that you have lost them....do something fast-you aren't the only act in town.
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Have to say I hate this DM created, artificial paladin dilemmas...
Why at all add an good Goblin tribe?
The goblins are supposed to be the bad guys in this module.
It's like adding a scene to Star Wars were Palpadin tried to safe Alderan or adding some scene to Game of Thrones were Jofrey is the Lawful good guy, who sacrifice himself for an orphant child...
On the one hand, evil goblins are one of the main threats in rise of the runelords. It seems strange that the party did not really know about these good goblins, or why they should really be attacking them. It was a case of someone pointing at a group of goblins and saying their evil. On the other hand, NO. It is nothing like The emperor palpating or king Joffrey acting completely out of character. I would have given more clues personally that something doesn't feel right about the situation. "The goblins don't seem to be acting in an evil fashion, they seem almost... Harmless. You get the feeling that something terrible is going to happen if you go through with this." Heck, even checking with that person that was claimed to be a rapist might give you clues that the woman might be lying.
As for what should happen to the paladin. Well he sacked a peaceful settlement of goblins...atonement and a considerable amount of work to restore the village and its inhabitants might be a start, but true atonement must come from cleansing the land of the vile taint of the deamon manipulator.
Have to say I hate this DM created, artificial paladin dilemmas...
Why at all add an good Goblin tribe?
The goblins are supposed to be the bad guys in this module.
It's like adding a scene to Star Wars were Palpadin tried to safe Alderan or adding some scene to Game of Thrones were Jofrey is the Lawful good guy, who sacrifice himself for an orphant child...On the one hand, evil goblins are one of the main threats in rise of the runelords. It seems strange that the party did not really know about these good goblins, or why they should really be attacking them. It was a case of someone pointing at a group of goblins and saying their evil. On the other hand, NO. It is nothing like The emperor palpating or king Joffrey acting completely out of character. I would have given more clues personally that something doesn't feel right about the situation. "The goblins don't seem to be acting in an evil fashion, they seem almost... Harmless. You get the feeling that something terrible is going to happen if you go through with this." Heck, even checking with that person that was claimed to be a rapist might give you clues that the woman might be lying.
As for what should happen to the paladin. Well he sacked a peaceful settlement of goblins...atonement and a considerable amount of work to restore the village and its inhabitants might be a start, but true atonement must come from cleansing the land of the vile taint of the deamon manipulator.
What... have you DONE?!
NECROMANCER!NECROMANCER IN THE TOWN FORUM!
Geeze. I had good advice for this, but I'm not going to risk being accused of turning someone into a newt and getting pired...
Hmm I wonder if people just spout the Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs - Always Evil because then their just numbers and stats you fight. There is no need to worry about morality in killing them. But Humans are just as evil, I mean all those mercenaries in games that we mow through. So if they are all evil and many of the lords and NPCs are evil. Why are humans not always considered Evil. I am thinking this is because 1 they are the most popular race to RP as and 2 then you would have to defend your own race against the charge.
Over all I think the Paladin should have noticed after killing the second innocent, the first could be hand waved off as accident and mislead. But any life taken after is not forgiven. Fleeing foes who are not armed, who are not even trying to defend themselves. Children fleeing their school only to be butchered as they leave. None of these are good acts even if this was an evil race.
My advice is for when that paladin dies. His god reincarnates him as a Goblin.
I realize this thread is a necro, but it was a very interesting read, and it helped me appreciate my DM more. While his combat is very difficult, at least he never blatantly railroads the narrative or maliciously tricks the group by withholding information to punish a player for not staying with the party.
It baffles me that anyone is taking the DM's side when he admits to withholding information about this unique goblin village in the lecture about the local goblin tribes, he didn't notify his players they could take perception checks to see Nualia's concealed monster arm, he made the only enlightened goblin village in the world not speak common (which would be the first thing a peaceful tribe of goblins would do to avoid misunderstanding) and he somehow made it so unclear these goblins were pacifists that the party slaughtered the whole village without realizing anything was amiss.
It really shows how bad this game can be if the DM abuses their power.