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Would it be possible to use Silent Image or one of its greater variants to create an illusory "dome" around the immediate battlefield?
Basically, make it appear to all those on the inside of the area as though the heavens and surrounding lands were all something else?
Kind of like the Road Runner Wily Coyote gag, except the fake perspective screen isn't flat, but more detailed and in an all encompassing 3D shape.
It would be pretty neat to convince the enemy that the clouds, and even the very very stars were under your control while the ground one hundred feet away in all directions seemed to collapse into a bottomless abyss.
It would also be a great way to create an illusion that would otherwise be larger than the area would allow (since it's all perspective).
Or would the dome illusion just not work because it blocks all light from the outside (which in itself could be useful)?
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I think if you want your illusion to have perceptable "depth" you need to create actual 3D images, not just a painting on a dome. That uses up a lot of AoE for your illusion.
Also, my understanding is that image-type spells can add, but not take away. So you can't make an illusion of a pit, but you could add clouds. The clouds would look like they weren't very far away, however. You could also add artificial stars but again they would appear to be nearby due to depth perception. Maybe you could fool a cyclops.
Perspective tricks to fool depth perception usually only work from very specific points of view. Any motion on the part of the viewer will reveal the trick.
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Question is....
Basically, make it appear to all those on the inside of the area as though the heavens and surrounding lands were all something else?
PRD says....
Figments cannot make something seem to be something else.
I'd say no - you'd need a Glamer, Phantasm, or Shadow type illusion to do what you are intending. Those all can alter in total what the subject perceives.
You could make a figment of more clouds but if you tried to block out the sun it would most likely allow a will save (at least at my table).
I could see at night making new constellations or more interesting types of ideas... :)
Dot.
Wrapping someone in an all encompassing illusion allowing a save? I hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense.
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As usual withwith illusions I refer to rules of the gane: all about illusions. Normally I never reference d&d stuff for pf, this is basically my one exception because it's the best and most comprehensive rules on illusions. There is also a part 2, 3 and 4 which you can find through google.
The issue people are having is its making something else appear as something else(in this situation the sky appears as the heavens), but i don't really think that counts here, my reason being then you could never even use a figment because it's always somewhere in space.
looking at all the rules I would say raw is gm fiat while rai is yes. The big question is, what level do you have to be to make a dome big enough to cover even a small battlefield? Even a 20 foot by 20 foot area would take a caster level of 6 if your GM is generous and 8 if he is on the mor stringent side. It doesn't really seem practical when you break it down like that.
Why would depth be a problem? It would be like an immersive full dome theater in which the illusion of depth is created via imagery projected on a (relatively) flat surface. It should be full proof up until they walk through and outside the illusory dome.
The illusion would not be larger than the spell's area allows, but from the perspective of those inside the illusory dome, it would look like it spanned from horizon to horizon.
Is this not how illusionists are meant to work; by tricking people in the most devious ways?
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Being able to move around freely in one of those dome theaters destroys the illusion of depth very quickly. Our depth perception is very good at using parallax to figure distances on short scales.
For example, you could make an illusion of a cloud filled sky, but the clouds would just be a few dozen feet up and made to look smaller due to false "distance" - but someone walking under those clouds will not see them move like things way up in the sky do, they will not "follow" you, moving against the backdrop of the horizon like real clouds or celestial objects do. They would behave more like treetops.
In a crazy distracted situation someone might not notice this, but anyone who pays attention to it will see that something is very wrong.
Also, Clectabled, any depth you want to be able to give your image shrinks the size of the dome you could possibly create - at least that was the only point I was making.
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@Ravingdork: Ckorik had it in one:
You can definitely do this trick, but not with Silent Image because the type of illusion that is created.
Effect visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level (S)
That illusion type has severe limits as it is one of the weakest.
Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
@Anyone who argues about depth perception... You're wrong. The illusion isn't worded that way, has no such language to imply it, and frankly doesn't need it. The only limitations are "does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature". Think of a Silent Image as a Star Trek Holodeck projection. Fully realized image from all angles. As soon as you interact with it, you'll probably catch on, though, because it has no supporting sensory deceptions. Silent Image is a perfect visual illusion, however.
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@Anyone who argues about depth perception... You're wrong. The illusion isn't worded that way, has no such language to imply it, and frankly doesn't need it. The only limitations are "does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature". Think of a Silent Image as a Star Trek Holodeck projection. Fully realized image from all angles. As soon as you interact with it, you'll probably catch on, though, because it has no supporting sensory deceptions. Silent Image is a perfect...
Sigh, I'm not arguing that it doesn't make 3d images. I'm saying the images are located within the area of the spell, and depth perception can detect that they aren't far away. I'm not saying they would look flat, but that they would look nearby. You can make an image of what you like, and that image looks real, but it's impossible to make a 3d hologram image that looks artificially distant from all points of view.
There's a reason that most real life perspective tricks and optical illusions either require you to look at them on a flat surface like a page or computer monitor, or require viewing from a very specific angle in real life.
If you make an illusion of clouds, it will look like clouds, real 3d clouds, but they will seem to be within the area of the spell, so maybe 50 feet up. If you make them small to make them look "distant" they will look like small clouds 50 feet up. If you carefully craft clouds to look actually distant using persepctive tricks, from every other angle they will just look weird and unnatural - but from that one spot it will look like distant clouds.
People can do that without magic, i dont see why they couldnt do it with magic.
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Sigh, I'm not arguing that it doesn't make 3d images. I'm saying the images are located within the area of the spell, and depth perception can detect that they aren't far away. I'm not saying they would look flat, but that they would look nearby. You can make an image of what you like, and that image looks real, but it's impossible to make a 3d hologram image that looks artificially distant from all points of view.
It isn't science or a trick on persepctive though. It is mind-affecting magic. It is exactly as real from every point of view within the area of effect.
There's a reason that most real life perspective tricks and optical illusions either require you to look at them on a flat surface like a page or computer monitor, or require viewing from a very specific angle in real life.
We are not restricted to a view screen. It is a mind-affecting magic effect.
If you make an illusion of clouds, it will look like clouds, real 3d clouds, but they will seem to be within the area of the spell, so maybe 50 feet up. If you make them small to make them look "distant" they will look like small clouds 50 feet up. If you carefully craft clouds to look actually distant using persepctive tricks, from every other angle they will just look weird and unnatural - but from that one spot it will look like distant clouds.
This would seem to run into table variance. In the specific example of creating clouds that are supposed to appear high in the sky using an effect that extends a short distance is certainly a GM call. In this specific case you in fact are creating an optical illusion using a mind-affecting magic effect. I would say you are within your bounds to constitute "looking at the effect" as "interacting" for the purposes of granting a save or something similar. Creating a boulder, fence, shack, whatever, would not have this kind of problem.
It's there to create a thing of a fairly small size somewhere in the area. It's not going to fool anyone who can move around even a little bit, because as soon as they move or turn their heads, they'll notice that objects aren't moving the way they're supposed to.
The spell itself states that the objects you create can move within the area of effect. Also, you can "fake-up" a 10x10x10 cube per level. That means a house, or even a fort at some levels is possible. Silent Image is very limited, but it's still on the same tier as Color Spray and Sleep. They see exactly what you want them to see. Moving yourself around a little bit is not enough to be considered "interacting" with the illusion. Remember, this is a mind-affecting magic effect. Knocking on the door, or wondering why the pig pen doesn't smell, or the armor doesn't clink is interacting, though. You're close enough to pick up the supporting sensory feedback that should be there but isn't.
I think you try to give too much power to a 1st-level spell (no offence).
It creates only one object/creature/force, and is not supposed to mask something.
Well to go back on my earlier post - Illusory Wall is also a figment and seems to be able to 'cover up things'.
It does seem to be the only illusion spell that breaks the mold so to speak - of what the types are supposed to do.
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It isn't science or a trick on persepctive though. It is mind-affecting magic. It is exactly as real from every point of view within the area of effect.
Ah, now I see why we are in disagreement here. Silent image isn't mind-affecting. Figments in general aren't mind-affecting. Illusions work just fine on mindless creatures, presuming they have the correct senses to perceive them.
If they were mind-affecting I would agree with you on all points that your mind would fill in the gaps for you. But what silent image does is create a "hologram" localized to its area of effect, and viewers all see said image from their own point of view.
Yep, not mind-affecting, and that's why I love this spell against zombies, huhuhu.
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-reads again- Wow, the things you can overlook...
Even still, because the only sense this illusion affects is Sight, making that so easy to trump as taking a move action to change perspective is too far.
Well to go back on my earlier post - Illusory Wall is also a figment and seems to be able to 'cover up things'.
Nothing says the figment cannot "cover things". Only that it cannot make one thing seem another. Joe the Soldier cannot be made to look like Jane the Scholar or Mr. Kerfluffles the local familiar. Joe could be made to look like he's holding Mr. Kerfluffles, or that Jane is lying dead on the floor, or that there's a throw rug lying on the floor where a trapdoor lays.
Would it be possible to use Silent Image or one of its greater variants to create an illusory "dome" around the immediate battlefield?
Why not go all the way, and create the illusion of an occulusriftapus?
An occulusriftapus is a giant, flying, many-tentacled beast with a globe on the end of each of its tentacles. Each globe is exactly sized to fit seamlessly over the face of one of your visible enemies. The inside of the globe presents a perfect illusion of the world as you wish your enemy to see it, even down to separate views shown to each of the enemy’s eyes for stereoscopic vision.
Your enemies will see a world where you and your allies are invisible, where their allies are horrid monsters charging them, and so on. Your allies' vision will remain unobstructed. All from a 1st level spell!
Because it’s too much.
There has to be a limit to Silent Image’s power, and it has to stop way short of the occulusriftapus. Here’s the line I like to draw:
The illusion of an object, force, or creature created by Silent Image and similar figment spells cannot present a believeable optical illusion or trick of perspective.
This stops players from putting illusionary television screens over windows that show armies marching in the distance, etc.
I would allow you to create a dome that is obviously a map of the heavens, but not one that could be mistaken for the heavens themselves.
I’m not claiming this is RAW or RAI. I’m saying it’s a reasonable line for a GM to draw.
I think the problem is what the op wants to do is extremely complex. While you could use silent image to make the statue of david the game never adresses wether the spellcaster has to think of the visual
Effects such as the statues hands being out of propottion. (To make them the right size when viewed at person hieght).
Howe er a giant dome with all the things visible in an outdoor setti.g is probably too much.
Many illusions are mind-affecting in the sense of the real-world term, if not the game term.
Also, I'm not making something look like something else. I'm creating an illusion that blocks line of sight to other things.
People have been creating illusions of tress and boulders to hide IN for DECADES. This is well established in the gaming community and isn't much different.
Being able to move around freely in one of those dome theaters destroys the illusion of depth very quickly. Our depth perception is very good at using parallax to figure distances on short scales.
For example, you could make an illusion of a cloud filled sky, but the clouds would just be a few dozen feet up and made to look smaller due to false "distance" - but someone walking under those clouds will not see them move like things way up in the sky do, they will not "follow" you, moving against the backdrop of the horizon like real clouds or celestial objects do. They would behave more like treetops.
In a crazy distracted situation someone might not notice this, but anyone who pays attention to it will see that something is very wrong.
Also, Clectabled, any depth you want to be able to give your image shrinks the size of the dome you could possibly create - at least that was the only point I was making.
That seems like a good argument for it granting a save, but not much else.
I think the problem is what the op wants to do is extremely complex. While you could use silent image to make the statue of david the game never adresses wether the spellcaster has to think of the visual
Effects such as the statues hands being out of propottion. (To make them the right size when viewed at person hieght).Howe er a giant dome with all the things visible in an outdoor setti.g is probably too much.
What on earth is a 20+ Intelligence wizard going to use all that intellect for, if not this?
Also, I never said silent image specifically. I was referring to the entire "[X] image" line of illusion spells.