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Pathfinder Fighters are fantastic. In this age where it seems everybody has some kind of magical powers coming out of their ears, there is something to be said for the guys and gals who manage to get by on just guts and steel (with a little brains behind them).
Full BAB? Yeah, we got that. In fact, we've got better than that. Weapon Training, my friend: you're +1 to hit and damage with your magic sword? I'm +1 to hit and damage with ANY sword.
It's such a shame the heavier armors limit your Dex bonus to AC. Maybe you should spend all your cash on Mithril armor. Me? No thanks, I've got Armor Training.
Why u MAD bro? I can get by with just one ability: Strength. Or I can have both Strength AND Intelligence if I want to get more Skill Points. Or I can choose to focus on another ability entirely. I've got all the combat feats I need to do what I want in a battle. And I can find plenty of ways to be useful out of combat with my regular non-combat feats or secondary ability scores.
Fighters are the kings of combat maneuvers. We have the feats. Gods forbid you should have to battle fighter who specializes in tripping people. If she's also specialized with a flail, you are going to spend the whole combat on your back. Enjoy!
And what about all those feats that only fighters can get?
Fighters can penetrate DR without magic or special materials.
Fighters can Disrupt spellcasters
Fighters can get obscene bonuses on their chosen weapons, higher than any other Martial.
Fighters can specialize with Shields, for gods' sake!
But above all: do you have a preferred combat style that you like to play? The fighter can do it. Ranged? Better than a ranger. Unarmed? The right fighter build can out-punch a monk. Two-weapon fighting? Probably the only class than can truly make it work. Anything involving ANY weapon EVER? Please, this is the fighter we're talking about. He's the GUY WHO FIGHTS.
Sword & spell?
......
Hmmm... Okay you might have me there. I guess you'll have to get yourself some points of Use Magic Device and invest in wands. But sure - go to town. You'll surprise the hell out of everybody, if nothing else.
I love fighters. I love playing them. I love running adventures for them. Especially in Pathfinder, because Pathfinder fighters in particular are awesome.
...../________________
0===|___R_E_S_P_E_C_T_ >
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Fighters of the world, step up and show your pride! :)
:(
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So uh... before this thread ends up getting derailed I want to ask you an important question.
How do you define 'get by' in the phrase 'manage to get by on just guts and steel (with little brains behind them)'
I believe I said "With A little brains behind them".
And by "get by" I mean survive and thrive in a world overrun with magical jibber-jabber. :)
So uh... before this thread ends up getting derailed I want to ask you an important question.
How do you define 'get by' in the phrase 'manage to get by on just guts and steel (with little brains behind them)'
Well they certainly aren't getting by with great resolve and mad reflexes, bro.
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That post wasn't "before this thread ends up getting derailed". That's putting the first penny on the track. I refuse to contribute to such a thing.
FIGHTER FANS REPRESENT!
/sad that I'll probably have to ignore this thread the next time I check it
Well they certainly aren't getting by with great resolve and mad reflexes, bro.So uh... before this thread ends up getting derailed I want to ask you an important question.
How do you define 'get by' in the phrase 'manage to get by on just guts and steel (with little brains behind them)'
Cunning and charm are not their forte either.
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Cunning and charm are not their forte either.Well they certainly aren't getting by with great resolve and mad reflexes, bro.So uh... before this thread ends up getting derailed I want to ask you an important question.
How do you define 'get by' in the phrase 'manage to get by on just guts and steel (with little brains behind them)'
Fighters can have all the Charisma they need, and Intelligence too. No Multi-Ability Dependence here, my friend.
Fighters can have all the Charisma they need, and Intelligence too. No Multi-Ability Dependence here, my friend.Cunning and charm are not their forte either.Well they certainly aren't getting by with great resolve and mad reflexes, bro.So uh... before this thread ends up getting derailed I want to ask you an important question.
How do you define 'get by' in the phrase 'manage to get by on just guts and steel (with little brains behind them)'
Nah, no ones got cunning as a forte, its not even a stat! Charms totally the caster's business. Level one spell, bro!
You forgot Critical Mastery; coupled with Weapon Mastery, fighters are the kings of critical hits (unless you're into all that intensified shocking grasp spellstrike shenanigans).
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Fighters can have all the Charisma they need, and Intelligence too. No Multi-Ability Dependence here, my friend.Nah, no ones got cunning as a forte, its not even a stat! Charms totally the caster's business. Level one spell, bro!
You're just jealous because Fighters are awesome.
*Gives MrSin a wedgie.*
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Fighters are good at fighting. Other classes are as good or better at fighting than a fighter, have better saves, and can do lots of other things well too.
I like fighters. A Lot. But they are the third weakest class in the game, and no amount of pride is going to change that.
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You forgot Critical Mastery; coupled with Weapon Mastery, fighters are the kings of critical hits (unless you're into all that intensified shocking grasp spellstrike shenanigans).
Preach on!
Fighters can have all the Charisma they need, and Intelligence too. No Multi-Ability Dependence here, my friend.Nah, no ones got cunning as a forte, its not even a stat! Charms totally the caster's business. Level one spell, bro!You're just jealous because Fighters are awesome.
*Gives MrSin a wedgie.*
Your just jealous my magus has such an awesome hat! T_T
Bumper Sticker: My other fighter is an eldritch knight.
Your just jealous my magus has such an awesome hat! T_TFighters can have all the Charisma they need, and Intelligence too. No Multi-Ability Dependence here, my friend.Nah, no ones got cunning as a forte, its not even a stat! Charms totally the caster's business. Level one spell, bro!You're just jealous because Fighters are awesome.
*Gives MrSin a wedgie.*
YOU'RE BOTH JEALOUS BECAUSE I BEAT GHOULS N' GHOSTS!
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Fighters are good at fighting. Other classes are as good or better at fighting than a fighter, have better saves, and can do lots of other things well too.
BOOOO! Other classes "participate in combat", and may do so effectively, but none are as good at FIGHTING as a fighter.
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YOU'RE BOTH JEALOUS BECAUSE I BEAT GHOULS N' GHOSTS!
Lies! That game is impossible.
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Fighters are good at fighting. Other classes are as good or better at fighting than a fighter, have better saves, and can do lots of other things well too.BOOOO! Other classes "participate in combat", and may do so effectively, but none are as good at FIGHTING as a fighter.
I'd say Fighters are good at standing still and full-attacking, but not all that good at fighting. If PF were all about repeatedly punching a sandbag, Fighters would be OP as hell.
YOU'RE BOTH JEALOUS BECAUSE I BEAT GHOULS N' GHOSTS!Lies! That game is impossible.
Nothing is impossible if you throw enough pain and misery at it! And by all gods, that game fueled me with enough pain and misery to last a thousand generations!
Fighters can go all day long. High hit points high armor and no x\day abilities. Spellcasters get up shoot of their spells then need to take a nap. Even paladins and barbarians will run out of abilities given enoughtime. Unless your GM always allows the PCs to control when and where the battles are fighters are the way to go!
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I'll say this... (mid/high level) Fighters are fun to build, since they are so customizable and by building at mid/high levels you can skip those boring levels where all you get is a +1 or a feat tax you don't want (cough-cough COMBAT EXPERTISE cough, cough).
Fighters can go all day long. High hit points high armor and no x\day abilities. Spellcasters get up shoot of their spells then need to take a nap. Even paladins and barbarians will run out of abilities given enough time. Unless your GM always allows the PCs to control when and where the battles are fighters are the way to go!
That's true... But when those resources are over, the Fighter is forced to rest as well, since going alone will kill him. That kinda undermines the whole "I can go forever" thing (also, HP are not unlimited, and Fighters can't heal them by themselves).
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Fighters, warlords, bad asses who have bravery as a class ability still dying (scared to death) more often to a phantasmal killer because of crap will saves.
barbarians mourn their fallen martial brethren
It is a myth that all fighters have crap will saves. The ones who care about will saves have high Wisdom scores and feats like Iron Will. They can afford to!
Boo YAY! Fightahs!
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It is a myth that all fighters have crap will saves. The ones who care about will saves have high Wisdom scores and feats like Iron Will. They can afford to!
That's not exactly true... They do have an easier time getting Iron Will (although they can't use their bonus feats for that, since IW is not considered a combat feat for some reason). But boosting Wis is not a Fighter class feature and they don't have anything that synergizes with Wisdom (not even Perception or Sense Motive as a class skill).
Fighters are even less effective in Pathfinder than they were in 4th edition imo. I only needed to play the fighter 3 times to figure out I was gimping myself (although the 4e slayer alternate fighter class was MONSTEROUS at fighting).
Extra feats are nice (and fighters do get some pretty cool fighter only feats) but I think people exaggerate their necessity. When guides are constantly calling every class build without oodles of bonus feats "feat starved" I've taken to rolling my eyes.
Bravery is frankly rarely useful and replicated by many other spells and magic items (that often do other things in addition)
Their only really class specific abilities are Armor/Weapon training (barring their diverse selection of archetypes).
Does the Fighter fight well? Yes (although only if they're always full attacking), but are they necessarily leagues ahead of other classes? No. Certainly not enough to justify their poor usefulness out of combat.
You say "I can pump up my INT for more skill points, or my CHA" but what does that accomplish? The fighter's incredibly limited selection of class skills, and lack of class abilities that key off any other ability score besides STR, ensures that it will never be ANYWHERE close to any other class in terms of skill (not unless it multiclasses anyways).
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That's not exactly true... They do have an easier time getting Iron Will (although they can't use their bonus feats for that, since IW is not considered a combat feat for some reason). But boosting Wis is not a Fighter class feature and they don't have anything that synergizes with Wisdom (not even Perception or Sense Motive as a class skill).
None of that matters. Fighters don't need to depend on more than one ability: Strength. They get to choose what other thing they want to be good at and pump that ability as they like:
Want to be skillful? Pump Intelligence.
Want to be a leader/face? Pump Charisma.
Want better Will saves? Pump Wisdom. etc etc.
A fighter can even choose to be a lunky musclehead with an obscene strength and no social skills, but that's a player choice.
A fighter never has to spend one of her "normal" feats on combat related things. The bonus feats cover all the ground necessary for effective combat. The rest can go towards making her chosen secondary role effective.
Also- because of things like greater weapon specialization, etc, the fighter doesn't need to invest everything in magic weapons, and can spend more on things to boost weak saves. Just like a Wizard would invest in items to boost a crap fort save.
They can have Whirlwind Attack AND Combat Reflexes at level 4 without shenanigans. That's nice. Not enough to make me play one, but nice.
It is a myth that all fighters have crap will saves. The ones who care about will saves have high Wisdom scores and feats like Iron Will. They can afford to!That's not exactly true... They do have an easier time getting Iron Will (although they can't use their bonus feats for that, since IW is not considered a combat feat for some reason). But boosting Wis is not a Fighter class feature and they don't have anything that synergizes with Wisdom (not even Perception or Sense Motive as a class skill).
The combat feat/noncombat feat distinction is mostly meaningless. Use a regular feat for Iron Will, and that frees up the combat feat you wanted to use for, well, a combat feat.
Like any other character, it's trivial to plug a hole in the class skill list. A *lot* of fighters have Perception-granting traits. A lot of others will dip another martial class just to get more class skills. And a few take Skill Focus.
That's not exactly true... They do have an easier time getting Iron Will (although they can't use their bonus feats for that, since IW is not considered a combat feat for some reason). But boosting Wis is not a Fighter class feature and they don't have anything that synergizes with Wisdom (not even Perception or Sense Motive as a class skill).None of that matters. Fighters don't need to depend on more than one ability: Strength. They get to choose what other thing they want to be good at and pump that ability as they like:
Want to be skillfull? Pump Intelligence.
Want to be a leader/face? Pump Charisma.
Want better Will saves? Pump Wisdom. etc etc.
A fighter can even choose to be a lunky musclehead with an obscene strength and no social skills, but that's a player choice.
A fighter never has to spend one of her "normal" feats on combat related things. The bonus feats cover all the ground necessary for effective combat. The rest can go towards making her chosen secondary role effective.
Also- because of things like greater weapon specialization, etc, the fighter doesn't need to invest everything in magic weapons, and can spend more on things to boost weak saves. Just like a Wizard would invest in items to boos a crap fort save.
It's not that simple... But I had this discussion not long ago, so whatever. I'll just stay on the corner, bragging about old video-games. :)
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It's not that simple... But I had this discussion not long ago, so whatever. I'll just stay on the corner, bragging about old video-games. :)That's not exactly true... They do have an easier time getting Iron Will (although they can't use their bonus feats for that, since IW is not considered a combat feat for some reason). But boosting Wis is not a Fighter class feature and they don't have anything that synergizes with Wisdom (not even Perception or Sense Motive as a class skill).None of that matters. Fighters don't need to depend on more than one ability: Strength. They get to choose what other thing they want to be good at and pump that ability as they like:
Want to be skillfull? Pump Intelligence.
Want to be a leader/face? Pump Charisma.
Want better Will saves? Pump Wisdom. etc etc.
A fighter can even choose to be a lunky musclehead with an obscene strength and no social skills, but that's a player choice.
A fighter never has to spend one of her "normal" feats on combat related things. The bonus feats cover all the ground necessary for effective combat. The rest can go towards making her chosen secondary role effective.
Also- because of things like greater weapon specialization, etc, the fighter doesn't need to invest everything in magic weapons, and can spend more on things to boost weak saves. Just like a Wizard would invest in items to boos a crap fort save.
I beat Ninja Gaiden on NES.
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That's not exactly true... They do have an easier time getting Iron Will (although they can't use their bonus feats for that, since IW is not considered a combat feat for some reason). But boosting Wis is not a Fighter class feature and they don't have anything that synergizes with Wisdom (not even Perception or Sense Motive as a class skill).None of that matters. Fighters don't need to depend on more than one ability: Strength. They get to choose what other thing they want to be good at and pump that ability as they like:
Want to be skillful? Pump Intelligence.
Which won't accomplish much. You don't have any class skills worth a damned besides intimidate. If you want to be skillful you need to multiclass, which is going to reduce the Fighter's combat ability (since it's fairly well agreed upon that multiclassing in PF is weak) which would beg the question why aren't you just playing a Ranger/Barbarian/Paladin/something else.
Want to be a leader/face? Pump Charisma.
Never going to happen without bluff/diplomacy/sense motive as class skills, plus you need to pump up INT as well to get the skill points for it, which is going to reduce the Fighter's investment in CON or DEX.
Want better Will saves? Pump Wisdom. etc etc.
You'd be better off using a feat on Iron Will and Impr. IW since buffing WIS with a Fighter is sinking points into a useless stat.
A fighter can even choose to be a lunky musclehead with an obscene strength and no social skills, but that's a player choice.
No, that's because Fighters are pidgeonholed into it. If you wanted to play a character who could fight AND have social skills, you'd just pick a different class.
A fighter never has to spend one of her "normal" feats on combat related things. The bonus feats cover all the ground necessary for effective combat. The rest can go towards making her chosen secondary role effective.
So what? Spending a Feat(s) on Skill Mastery or etc? In that case, why the hell be a Fighter in the first place, y'know, since the 'class ability' of Fighter basically just boils down to extra feats?
So uh... before this thread ends up getting derailed I want to ask you an important question.
How do you define 'get by' in the phrase 'manage to get by on just guts and steel (with little brains behind them)'
I believe I said "With A little brains behind them".
And by "get by" I mean survive and thrive in a world overrun with magical jibber-jabber. :)
I get by with a little help from my friends. :)
Yes, I love the fighter. Maybe I am just old school, but I notice when I play that the wizard, cleric, bard, rogue, etc. all also love the Fighter especially when one or more combat bad guys are running at them and they need someone to get in the way to give them the time to unleash their "awesome" powers.
Otherwise the squishies go squish!
I beat Ninja Gaiden on NES.
Ah, yes... That thing still gives me nightmares... That and Battle Toads.
Oddly enough, the original Cotnra for NES wasn't nearly as difficult as the SNES sequel.
I'm pretty sure beating those games is what gave me a beard and chest hair. LOL.
Oi! No more video game chat - back on topic!
But what if I make a Fighter based on a video-game character? (I'm pretty sure Arthur from Ghouls n' Ghosts was a Fighter with Throw Anything).
That topic being that Fighters are Awesome, regardless of the mechanics, except when its because of the mechanics.
Well, putting it that way... So are commoners. :)
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So what? Spending a Feat(s) on Skill Mastery or etc? In that case, why the hell be a Fighter in the first place, y'know, since the 'class ability' of Fighter basically just boils down to extra feats?
Weapon and armor training are nothing to sneer at. And what it boils down to is that people choose the Fighter class because they like to focus on combat - usually a particular style of combat that the other martial classes don't do in quite the right way for the player.
I completely disagree that Fighters are pigeonholed - they are probably the most versatile class (in terms of building a particular character type) in the game next to wizards.
Which is why they are awesome. :)
Sure Fighters are awesome. They just happen to be less mechanically awesome then every other class in the game. Except the Rogue. `So yes, awesome, just the worst of the awesome. Great runners, sure, but the the last place ones. Now if only we could get the people who hate the fighter and chain it to real world reality to stop hating the fighter it would be fantastic. So let's really stick to those fighters haters and get some Charles Atlas Superpowers up in this class.
You say they're among the weakest classes - I feel they're almost the only class at the correct power level.
Six of one...
You say they're among the weakest classes - I feel they're almost the only class at the correct power level.Six of one...
Alright kids you know what time it is...
One of these things is not like the others...
One of things just doesn't belong...
Can you tell which thing is not like the others...
By the time I finish my song.
(Hint the answer is Fighter. And Rogue.)