Bull Rush vs Grappled


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Okay, so when you grapple, you stay in your own square while doing so. Let's say a monster is grappling my ally, and I feel like that shouldn't be a thing anymore. What happens when I bull rush the creature that is holding the grapple with my ally?


No idea. Forced movement and grappling are a combination not well covered by the rules. I've seen the grapple break, or both grappled creatures get moved, or it simply doesn't work. Similar problems arise when one creature in a grapple finds himself without a floor under his feet for whatever reason. Does the other creature fall as well, or does the other creature keep the first creature aloft?

And don't even get me started on teleporting.


This came up in pfs, and an ally was getting messed up real bad, and we all wanted to help and I mentioned that I could try to bull rush. We all became very sad.


Bull rushing grappled creatures would probably fall under the rule regarding bull rushing multiple creatures (i.e. a -4 taken on the check to move the 2nd target). This doesn't break the grapple as both targets are moved.

If the goal is to break your ally free from the grapple, you have the "Aid Another" route to accomplish this.


Also, please consider the angle of the rush, so you're not in the direct line to push both.


If anything, I'd consider this a situation where the target of the bullrush were "holding on" to something to brace himself against the bullrush. For instance, you try to bullrush someone through a doorway, but the target is braced against the doorframe so it's harder to push him through. In this curcumstance, I'd give the target of the bullrush a circumstantial "soft" bonus to CMD against the rush that represents using the target of his grapple as an "anchor" of sorts against being pushed around. If this causes the bullrush to fail (ie. it fails but would have succeeded if not for this circumstantial bonus), you make your second bullrush roll (at -4) against the grappled character and, if you succeed, you push them both and the grapple is maintained. If you succeed on your roll outright, you break the grapple, analogous to breaking the target's grip on the doorframe. So, to illustrate:

We've got a Human and an Elf fighting an Orc. The Orc has grappled the Elf and the Human wants to use a Bullrush Charge against the Orc to break the grapple since he's too far away to move in and use aid another. We'll say the Orc has a CMD of 18 and the Elf has a CMD of 14 while the Human has a CMB of +10, for the sake of example. We'll say the circumstantial bonus for grappling the Elf gives a "soft bonus" of +4 so the Orc still has a CMD of 18, but it's treated as 22 to see if the grapple breaks in the process. Of course, for the Charge, the Human gets +2 so his actual CMB is +12 for this particular Bullrush.

If the Human rolls 5 or less, he doesn't succeed at the Bullrush so the Orc stays right where he is; the Bullrush was a failure.

If the Human rolls more than 5, but less than 10, he Bullrushes the Orc, but the Elf serves as an anchor and he must also move the Elf. He checks again against the Elf at -4 to his check to see if he can push him as well (requires 6 or higher roll). If not, he must end the bullrush so that the Orc is still adjacent to the Elf. If the Bullrush would, otherwise, push the Orc into a spot not adjacent to the Elf, it "succeeded", but is treated as if there were no open space to push the Orc into. If the Human succeeds against the Elf as well, both Orc and Elf are pushed together and the Grapple is still maintained.

If the Human rolls 10 or higher, the Grapple is broken and the Orc, alone, is pushed.


afaik, the rules don't cover how to do this, although GM ingenuity can offer a variety of options. But if the goal is to break the grapple for your friend, again "Aid Another" is the way to go if you're trying to stay within RAW.

Silver Crusade

Kazaan provides an solid solution. Systemically there are very few grapple options which indicate your opponent is really locked with you. Pin is one, Move/Drag could be reasonably argued either way. There are many different styles and ways to grapple. However, in many situations it is reasonable to to knock one opponent away without any real impact on the other. There are no attack penalties for striking a target engaged in a grapple, so I don't feel that a penalty should apply to the roll itself in most circumstances, even with some pins you could just boot the bastard off his victim.

There are a lot of ways you could handle this with more or less detail.

One Perspective: The grapplers are holding on to each other and the Bull Rush against A provides B an opportunity to escape. If A is Bull Rushed, then B must succeed at a Reflex Save vs. A's CMD or get moved as well. Perhaps both parties only move half distance.

Two Perspective: The grapplers are holding on to each other and the Bull Rush against A might break the grip. If A is Bull Rushed, then A is allowed a Fortitude Save vs the CMB check made to Bull Rush. Success moves both grapplers.

Three Perspective: The Grapple is what must be overcome. If And B are grappling and A is Bull Rushed, then the CMB check must be greater than the grapple check and greater than A's CMD in order to succeed.

I prefer the above three because it requires less dice rolling. You could have several checks to maintain the grapple, escape, or modify it by type of maneuver last performed, or +5DC per combatant. In the end just try not to over-complicate it. Bull Rushing an opponent who is grappling another is a very reasonable tactic and it happens often enough in the real world.


I would requite a new grapple heck from the part of the mosnter. If succesful ht emonster and the grappled PC move toghter, if not the monster let go the grapple.

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