Goblin Squad Member
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An Alternative to Capital Punishment in PFO
I was hoping to get some discussion here on the viability of a alternative method of "punishing" behavior that the PFO devs feel is "unwanted" or toxic to the game. First, I'll say that my MMO experience is somewhat limited compared to many that may post here (I have some experience with EVE, that's about it). So, I thought I'd throw this idea out to everyone to perhaps get some perspective from more experienced MMO players.
From what I can gather on the discussion boards, it seems that if the MMO devs for a particular game want to discourage a certain type of behavior in specific "low risk" areas of their game, they simply have a multitude of NPCs ("police") that enforce the laws by killing anyone who violates those laws. Capital punishment for all crimes, heinous or no. And in some games, there are reputation consequences for committing these crimes. Do something "bad" (and I'm not going to try to define "bad" here, because I think that term is at least somewhat subjective in an MMO and therefore is fluid), you suffer pain of death and some sort of "negative" reputation penalty. EVE is like this; and from what I can tell, PFO seems as if it will be like this as well. In particular, in EVE high security areas (high-sec), if you violate the law, the NPC police come in and smoke you. And of course you suffer some reputation penalty. Does that discourage some folks from breaking the laws in high-sec areas? Sure. Is it the most effective way to discourage that? I don't think so. I say this because violators just re-spawn elsewhere and can go back about their business right away, whatever that business happens to be (doing "bad" things, in this case).
So, I thought, why can't an MMO have incarceration as an option to enforce law and order? If you violate the law in an NPC area, you're thrown in the stockade, and you can't play your character for a few hours or a day or a week or a month, whatever the penalty may be. This does a couple of things: 1) it imposes a real world penalty on those engaging in actions that the devs feel is not meaningful (i.e., you can't play your incarcerated character for some period of time, and you're paying for that time with real world money), and 2) it lets the devs escalate the penalty or establish a hierarchy of crimes. If you steal a melon, its 5 minutes of playing time in the stockade. If you kill someone illegally, its 20 days playing time in the stockade. Or something along those lines.
I think you get my point; a real world implication for the actions you take in game. I think it would be more effective than the "immediate capital punishment for all crimes" approach that seems to be typical. Would it stop all "bad" behavior? Of course not. Would people figure out ways to work around this? Probably. But one thing is for sure, if the character you use to commit a crime is thrown into some dungeon and you can't play that character for 20 days while you're paying for that time, it would certainly get your attention.
Additionally, if a system like this existed, player-controlled settlements could possibly impose similar penalties (within reason, of course, the specifics of how this might work would take some thought and development).
Any and all opinions and thoughts are appreciated.
Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on my post!
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Goblin Squad Member
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An Alternative to Capital Punishment in PFO
I was hoping to get some discussion here on the viability of a alternative method of "punishing" behavior that the PFO devs feel is "unwanted" or toxic to the game. First, I'll say that my MMO experience is somewhat limited compared to many that may post here (I have some experience with EVE, that's about it). So, I thought I'd throw this idea out to everyone to perhaps get some perspective from more experienced MMO players.
From what I can gather on the discussion boards, it seems that if the MMO devs for a particular game want to discourage a certain type of behavior in specific "low risk" areas of their game, they simply have a multitude of NPCs ("police") that enforce the laws by killing anyone who violates those laws. Capital punishment for all crimes, heinous or no. And in some games, there are reputation consequences for committing these crimes. Do something "bad" (and I'm not going to try to define "bad" here, because I think that term is at least somewhat subjective in an MMO and therefore is fluid), you suffer pain of death and some sort of "negative" reputation penalty. EVE is like this; and from what I can tell, PFO seems as if it will be like this as well. In particular, in EVE high security areas (high-sec), if you violate the law, the NPC police come in and smoke you. And of course you suffer some reputation penalty. Does that discourage some folks from breaking the laws in high-sec areas? Sure. Is it the most effective way to discourage that? I don't think so. I say this because violators just re-spawn elsewhere and can go back about their business right away, whatever that business happens to be (doing "bad" things, in this case).
So, I thought, why can't an MMO have incarceration as an option to enforce law and order? If you violate the law in an NPC area, you're thrown in the stockade, and you can't play your character for a few hours or a day or a week or a month, whatever the penalty may be. This does a couple of...
I appreciate your post, but a company isn't going to want to prevent their players from playing the game and I really don't think most players would stand for it. "I'm not paying you a monthly fee to stare at a jail cell."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think Incarceration is a good solution. If the devs really want to stop certain behavior, they can just make it impossible. For example, killing new players inside the NPC Starter Towns might well be impossible because the NPC Marshals will respond and kill you before you can possibly do enough damage to kill anyone - they can even respond after your attack is initiated but before any damage is applied to the target.
I think the best way to deal with "bad" behavior is to force the actor to make a cost-benefit analysis. This is where I think Goblinworks gets it right and most Open PvP Sandbox games get it wrong. In most other games, the "cost" is limited to being flagged in such a way that other players can see you've been "bad". In PFO, the cost is measured in Alignment and Reputation shifts, and those will have meaningful consequences on the kinds of things you can do with your character.
You mentioned you have some experience with EVE. My experience with that game is extremely limited, but I wonder how different it would be if it implemented a similar solution. Imagine if you couldn't enter most player stations if your Security Status was below -5, even if those stations were in null sec space (or whatever it's called), and the stations you could enter didn't have the kinds of things you needed to make your character/ship function at peak efficiency. Would that change the way folks played?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with Sextant; the minute you tell a guy he has to pay you to not play a game he's going to leave. I myself like the "reformation" type of approach, whereby these "bad players" are encouraged to play in more healthy and rewarding ways, and subsequently punished if they continue to play in ways unhealthy for the game. Carrot and stick, as opposed to really big stick being stuck you-know-where.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Does it make sense that if a character fails a bluff check, the player should spend 15 minutes in time out?
Good point.
If the devs really want to stop certain behavior, they can just make it impossible.
Also a good point.
Or I suppose it could be a way for settlements to extort money from criminals; a Settlement Stand and Deliver, so to speak. "You stole a melon; 50 pence or we throw you in jail!" Well, maybe not.
Good insights, thanks for your patience!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some MMOs do have a jail system in place, player run. It is in the experimental stage. It comes with player judges, a complete prison environment where you can train some skills not as easily available in the outside world and ways to escape. I have not seen a robust discussion of the pros and cons from players who have experienced it (Korean game...can't remember the name atm) but there are some that are obvious.
Players abusing the system to lock up other players is near the top, and as mentioned, players would not stick around for long paying for a game if they could not play it as they wished. Interesting concept but there are many limitations to it being well received by the player base.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ideas like this have been suggested for years in the MMO world. Nobody is ever going to block access to a character unless you break TOS.
A game with real-world like consequences for misbehaving will never be successful. PvP will dry up, bandits will leave, so bounty hunters will have nothing to do, Warfare is not happening often enough on a small enough scale for causal pvp, so those guys leave, then you are left with PvE content and that gets old faster than it can be generated.
In EvE you also lose your clone, for veteran players, this is expensive. Chances are, the person that killed you suffered a much greater loss than you. And you still get to return and collect your remaining cargo.
I don't think people realize what a nightmare a PVE sandbox would create. it would either become overcrowded, or have to be so big that everyone would be so far away from each-other you hardly interact. Look at SWG, large fields of houses sprouted up around cities.
Minecraft only works without PvE turned on because the playable map is 900 Quadrillion square blocks. Even then starting areas on large servers get 'noisy'. It would take over 30 days of walking unhindered in one direction to reach this 'edge'. If every player that owns minecraft played on one map, since it was release, there would still be plenty of room.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is actually done in Final Fantasy 11 online, however, the action(s) that trigger it must be very severe and only the GM's can instigate incarceration. It is, therefore, resource heavy (GM's must intervene) and usually not very effective anyways.
Your character would literally be teleported to a jail where you would spent some amount of time (you can see some examples on youtube).
Like many other issues we have all discussed in these forums, the only thing that incarceration encourages is making alts (the proverbial 'monster in the basement' argument).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Foucault... Foucault everywhere
I give a viable alternative:
Ban (temp/perma) that character from the hex
Think about it, GW already is processing the same information to keep track of laws and whatnot in the first place, why not just drop territory-specific bans?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You mentioned you have some experience with EVE. My experience with that game is extremely limited, but I wonder how different it would be if it implemented a similar solution. Imagine if you couldn't enter most player stations if your Security Status was below -5, even if those stations were in null sec space (or whatever it's called), and the stations you could enter didn't have the kinds of things you needed to make your character/ship function at peak efficiency. Would that change the way folks played?
At least you admitted up front your experience was extremely limited, and yet you went in to make suggestions on how EvE could have been better.
Here are a few details:
Low Security Characters can not enter most High Sec space once they fall below -5.0 security status.
Low Security Characters will be fired by gate guns, inside High Sec or Enemy systems.
Low security characters are still prohibited from attacking anyone near a gate (even in low sec space), but anyone can attack a low sec character near gate guns without being attacked, during the criminal flag (15 minute timer).
No one can enter another company's POS (station) unless on their permissions list. Otherwise the POS guns will open fire.
Low Security does not stop the flow of needed materials to Pirate Corporations, the use of alts takes care of this.
The system pretty much works as intended and well (in my opinion). Low security characters have limited access to high security places, and have to rely on the support of others for some of their needs. Some people actually go the extra step of having multiple paid accounts, which is good for CCP's bottom line.
I'm sure PFO will have a similar system, where low rep has some limited access but not to the point of crippling.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have serious issues with death being the only punishment in the game. It really takes away from it for me. Obviously there are players that will ignore any other form of punishment other than incarceration and preventing players from playing the game is a huge mess with basically no positive side.
Some alternative forms of punishment that can work, particularly when put in the hands of player rune settlements, Fines, and Exile.
Exile is easy, player commits and offense in a settlements territory, they have a period of time to remove themselves from said territory or they are flagged to be killed by the settlement. After a period of time the player is free to return to the territory. If they return before that time is up, they are flagged to be killed.
Basically, character commits and offense, they have a period of time to pay the fine to the settlement before the punishment escalates. The punishment can escalate in a few way, enhanced fines, exile, flagged for death. It is really up to the settlement.
These also give some softer tools for territory control than kill people even though it all boils down to that in the end for stubborn players.
I don't think either would be all that hard to code either.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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You mentioned you have some experience with EVE. My experience with that game is extremely limited, but I wonder how different it would be if it implemented a similar solution. Imagine if you couldn't enter most player stations if your Security Status was below -5, even if those stations were in null sec space (or whatever it's called), and the stations you could enter didn't have the kinds of things you needed to make your character/ship function at peak efficiency. Would that change the way folks played?At least you admitted up front your experience was extremely limited, and yet you went in to make suggestions on how EvE could have been better.
Here are a few details:
Low Security Characters can not enter most High Sec space once they fall below -5.0 security status.
Low Security Characters will be fired by gate guns, inside High Sec or Enemy systems.
Low security characters are still prohibited from attacking anyone near a gate (even in low sec space), but anyone can attack a low sec character near gate guns without being attacked, during the criminal flag (15 minute timer).
No one can enter another company's POS (station) unless on their permissions list. Otherwise the POS guns will open fire.
Low Security does not stop the flow of needed materials to Pirate Corporations, the use of alts takes care of this.
The system pretty much works as intended and well (in my opinion). Low security characters have limited access to high security places, and have to rely on the support of others for some of their needs. Some people actually go the extra step of having multiple paid accounts, which is good for CCP's bottom line.
I'm sure PFO will have a similar system, where low rep has some limited access but not to the point of crippling.
I'm less sure that the mechanics in PFO will be so lenient. Specifically, I think that low-Reputation characters will not be able to use any of the facilities of Settlements that have advanced facilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wrote "possibly" as I meant "in certain circumstances". Exiled and cut off from your home settlement? No access to use facilities? What about a KOS list for the offended settlement AND their allies. Fines could be ignored, unless exile was part of the pain until paid.
If the game is built around cooperative "communities" then being cut off from your own would suck...
In the case of a stranger, no, they could probably care less about "fines" or "exile" if they are career criminal types. Anyone that likes to do business with a certain community, or is a member, might care more.
P.S. Not advocating that there need be ANY mechanics for that either, unless it became so common as to be unmanageable without.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are exiled from your own settlement, you will quit it and join another.
@ DeciousBrutus, GW first has to prove they can make such a system, then get it to work well, then for it to work as intended, and finally for players to actually care or find ways around it.
I remain skeptical on some points more than others. Then there is the power curve dichotomy and the mathematically impossible "numerical advantage won't matter".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe I should have been more specific: Exile is strictly a lesser punishment than repeated execution.
In terms of mechanics, it requires only the ability to set settlement or nation standing with individual players.
Hmmm... I suppose that "repeated execution" would be a bit wearing on your enjoyment measurement, if it was applied enough and frequently.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You mentioned you have some experience with EVE. My experience with that game is extremely limited, but I wonder how different it would be if it implemented a similar solution. Imagine if you couldn't enter most player stations if your Security Status was below -5, even if those stations were in null sec space (or whatever it's called), and the stations you could enter didn't have the kinds of things you needed to make your character/ship function at peak efficiency. Would that change the way folks played?At least you admitted up front your experience was extremely limited, and yet you went in to make suggestions on how EvE could have been better.
First off, thanks for the "few details". That's pretty much exactly how I understood EVE to work.
But to be clear, I wasn't making suggestions on how EVE could be better. I was trying to describe my understanding of PFO using EVE terms that the person to whom I was speaking might better understand than if I just used raw abstract concepts.
Didn't mean to wake the dragon, bud...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ultima Online had a jail where the GMs would send you for excessive cussing, etc. I think the jail time was 3 then 7 days then perma-ban.
I think we've talked about jails in player cities before. Players who are griefing other players and no one wants to take a reputation hit by killing them can be exiled. If you're caught in a player city you've been exiled from, it takes a citizen of that city to catch you. Maybe be able to target and "ban" them. They can't attack a citizen and have two minutes to leave the city limits. If they don't leave they can be banned again sending them to jail for 15 minutes then are ported out of the walls. They physically can't enter that city for 24 hours, then they can try whatever mischief they had planned before.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe it was Stephen Cheney who talked very briefly of a "Marshall" system which would allow specifically authorized people (appointed by the settlement leadership, I believe) to temporarily flag characters as criminal. This is effectively the 'Exile' and 'Fine' system in a nutshell, I think, and should be another good way to deter griefing and to enforce meaningful decision making.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmm... I suppose that "repeated execution" would be a bit wearing on your enjoyment measurement, if it was applied enough and frequently.Maybe I should have been more specific: Exile is strictly a lesser punishment than repeated execution.
In terms of mechanics, it requires only the ability to set settlement or nation standing with individual players.
I think that really depends on the offenders goal. For some, the death of their character could have already been calculated into the offense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just to be sure that we are on the same page here... I believe that Decius means it is better to "just" be exiled than it is to be "exiled" and "KOS" everywhere?
Edit: My point was that "death" can sometimes be a trivial punishment when stacked against large fines or exile fro a settlement that you are tied to.
Unless I read you wrong, Charlie, I get your meaning as it is just part of the cost and relatively meaningless if the goal is served?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did you mean "expulsion from a player organization" as the major component of "exile"? That's a different punishment from anything ingame, but can only apply to members.
Even if the majority of offenders "exiled" are not a part of YOUR organization, I wonder how many "exile" tags it takes from diff. Orgs to start harming an offender's playability?
