This is a good looking build Scavion. The only thing about buffing builds that give me pause is that 75% of the time, there is no time to buff before a fight. Beyond that, very nicely put together. I'm going to take a closer look at that Archetype.
Unfortunately, as we have seen quite a few times in Pathfinder, Paizo seems unable to adjust previously-published material, and when they do (such as with Crane Wing), the boards explode. So why adjust?
There were a lot of issues with the Crane Wing update than what was at the surface.
If they buff the Rogue, I really doubt anyone is going to make a big deal out of it except congratulating them on finally doing it.
** spoiler omitted **...
Mutagen and Heroism are long lasting buffs. Haste is generally the only one to be applied in fights and depending on your party composition you may not even need to use it yourself.
If it's in minutes, it's tougher to rely on, at least for me. Still looks good.
When something is 10 min./level, it's a bit iffy. I feel that you will generally know when a fight is likely coming up within the hour and you can expect to have the buff going. Not something you'd have up if you were surprised (like a 1 hour/level spell), but something you can rely on when not ambushed.
I've had a bit of time today to jot some stuff down, and I think I've got a straight Rogue10 that's pretty close to Deadman's Archaeologist in DPR. Just need to find a DPR formula later tonight and run it through.
All I'll say now is that man, Craft Wondrous Item is great on a Rogue.
I also looked up a few CR 10 monsters from here, and I've calculated an average CMD of 33, for monsters of Large size or smaller, since Medium-sized PCs can't trip things that are Huge or larger.
-Matt
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Matt, I meant to link this much earlier but forgot to. It's an excellent spreadsheet made my Ravingdork, if you've seen him around.
DPR Calc
I hope that link works. Otherwise, try this.
Navigate to RPG Tools and then DPR Calculator. You'll have to calculate chance to hit manually from attack bonus vs AC, but hopefully that's straightfoward enough. Just work from the minimum dice roll you'd need to hit and go from there (I think it would be 100% - (dice roll needed - 1) * 5%)
Scavion, question about your build. Why take the Skill Focus Human racial alternative to a normal feat? With a normal feat, you could pick up Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting at level 9 rather than Improved Feint. Not entirely sure why you picked up Improved Feint, either. Is it for Greater Feint down the line? In that case, why not Imp. Two-Weapon Feint?
Just curious, sorry if you've mentioned it and I somehow missed it.
Thanks a bunch, Xethic!
My preliminary draft for a Rog10 is churning out a DPR of 93.98, assuming one round of buffing (just like Deadman's archaeologist) and a Gang Up flank, but I'll have to tweak it a bit more.
Does anyone know of a good benchmark DPR to shoot for? 100? Beyond?
This is being compared to:
DPR on my bard vs. AC 24:One attack: 25
Full Attack: 43.83
Full Atack w/Haste: 70.336I probably screwed that up a bit...but not that much. Further attack bonuses (like flanking) help a little, but not that much, as they only increase the third attack's odds. Even with Flanking and Greater Invisibility the second one only goes up to 50, and the third to 75.
-Matt
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This is a good looking build Scavion. The only thing about buffing builds that give me pause is that 75% of the time, there is no time to buff before a fight. Beyond that, very nicely put together. I'm going to take a closer look at that Archetype.
One of the advantages of scouting builds (ie: good Rogue replacements) is that they vastly increase the number of encounters you can buff before.
Thanks a bunch, Xethic!
My preliminary draft for a Rog10 is churning out a DPR of 93.98, assuming one round of buffing (just like Deadman's archaeologist) and a Gang Up flank, but I'll have to tweak it a bit more.
Does anyone know of a good benchmark DPR to shoot for? 100? Beyond?
It's worth noting that that's a specific build you're looking at, designed to do everything another specific build does, only better. Show me your build, and I bet I can do the same with it.
For example, if you're going Strength Rogue I can do vastly more damage on a Strength Bard than I did with that one.
Once I get some time later tonight, I'll post a build showing where I'm at. I have a few tweaks in mind.
I'm not really interested in a "competition" with the Archaeologist at this point; I'm more interested in hitting a DPR benchmark that will make the Rogue look respectable. Does anyone know of a good target DPR?
EDIT: I'm currently working with a variation of Mattastrophic's Rouge-Kissed Lady, a Dex-based build which tends to leverage Combat Expertise.
-Matt
Once I get some time later tonight, I'll post where I'm at. I have a few tweaks in mind.
I'm not really interested in a "competition" with the Archaeologist at this point, I'm more interested in hitting a DPR benchmark that will make the Rogue look respectable. Does anyone know of a good target DPR?
-Matt
Hard to say Matt. 70-100 is fine for the Utility slot on the party. A big issue though is if the DPR you provide over a Bard is worth 6 levels of casting that the Bard or Alchemist brings(Since we know they have comparable skill potential). Another issue is that the Bard and Alchemist are a lot more effective in their defenses so when push comes to shove they'll hold firm whereas the Rogue can have all sorts of terrible things happen to him.
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Once I get some time later tonight, I'll post a build showing where I'm at. I have a few tweaks in mind.
I'm not really interested in a "competition" with the Archaeologist at this point; I'm more interested in hitting a DPR benchmark that will make the Rogue look respectable. Does anyone know of a good target DPR?
I am interested in competition, basically because I think the Rogue really is superfluous at this point and that you can pretty readily make a Bard or Alchemist who does literally everything better than they do.
EDIT: I'm currently working with a variation of Mattastrophic's Rouge-Kissed Lady, a Dex-based build which tends to leverage Combat Expertise.
-Matt
Interesting. I'll have to see the full build...but interesting.
Here we are: The current draft of Rakish Rachel, Human Rogue10, DPR caps out at 165.21.
The current draft of Rakish Rachel relies on flanking, which is assisted by Gang Up and Greater Trip. Her own buffs include haste (10 rounds/day), divine favor (3 uses/day, Quickened if that works in your game), shield, and her bane baldric. Crafting feats really helped her out.
EDIT: It's worth noting that even without flanking (and thus no sneak attack), Rakish Rachel can still achieve a pretty good DPR.
And Rakish Rachel believes that yes, Sneak Attack can be worth it.
-Matt
Here we are: The current draft of Rakish Rachel, Human Rogue10, DPR caps out at 165.21.
The current draft of Rakish Rachel relies on flanking, which is assisted by Gang Up and Greater Trip. Her own buffs include haste (10 rounds/day), divine favor (3 uses/day, Quickened if that works in your game), shield, and her bane baldric. Crafting feats really helped her out.
-Matt
Can you explain how you qualify?
Looks good. Could definitely be done as a ninja seeing how you have 14 Charisma, if that was the preference of the player. Seeing numbers like this gives me good hope for my Inquisitor/Rogue, but I'll be able to supply my own Divine Favor/buffs rather than getting them from magic items.
It's a bit crazy how much the damage relies on Sneak Attack, but that's Rogue for you.
EDIT: To clarify, it's not like 100 DPR is awful. But when you consider the DPR without the nova (few buffs) and without sneak attack, it's sooo much lower. Again, expected for a Rogue.
Starbuck: Minor Magic allows you to take Craft Wondrous Item, essentially. It's a controversial FAQ, the same that let's you get into Eldritch Knight level 2
I think throwing the BBEG some templates or crazy magic items to help them be even more elusive could create a memorable villain. Items and potions to give temporary flight as well as just beefing up hitpoints are both important.
One thing of note is that Rakish has less than amazing Will save. While smaller creatures can get away with this, PCs and 'bosses' will get really screwed over by a save-or-suck effect. PCs can use certain Wayfinder + Ioun Stone tricks to become immune to evil possession, but no such effect works for the enemy. Maybe having protection from good/law would help, but it really depends on your party. A lot of guys are hanging in the neutral range.
Just something to keep in mind.
Here we are: The current draft of Rakish Rachel, Human Rogue10, DPR caps out at 165.21.
The current draft of Rakish Rachel relies on flanking, which is assisted by Gang Up and Greater Trip. Her own buffs include haste (10 rounds/day), divine favor (3 uses/day, Quickened if that works in your game), shield, and her bane baldric. Crafting feats really helped her out.
EDIT: It's worth noting that even without flanking (and thus no sneak attack), Rakish Rachel can still achieve a pretty good DPR.
And Rakish Rachel believes that yes, Sneak Attack can be worth it.
-Matt
Crazy showcase of how gold solves all problems, but it works. Your saves still make me cringe but they're closer to par.
I imagine an Alchemist with Craft Wondrous Item would blow it out of the water since they gain about the same benefit from it.
I've been playing for 30yrs, even though I'm fairly new to PF. I've played with, as well as played rogues, that did very well. Also time tested experience with MANY different people.
It just isn't something that that's black and white.
Actually, it is fairly black and white. They tend to do well in low power games, where the monsters are lower CR, so have less AC. GM's sometimes forget about concealment from light conditions if you don't play really rules heavy which is typical of low power games, thats another one for them.
Basically rogues do well anywhere there isn't a lot of optimization and some of the less looked at rules like light conditions and the old stealth rules were glossed over.
Believe what you like but I have seen proof to the cotrary on many occasions.
Light conditions... seriously? How ill prepd are the rogues you've seen?
Right....
I think the YEARS of contrary antedoctal evidence saying the contrary proves you wrong...
And yes, light conditions do affect rogues. He is now either dependent on getting goggles of darkvision (whihc takes away his diminishing pool of money), buying potions/wands (which get expensive), depending on his party members (so... again, the rogue begging his team-mates to waste their precious resources on him so he can feel useful), or being pigeoned-holed into being certain races.
Even then, a simple 1st level spell crushes the poor rogue (Obscuring Mist)
You can play that game with any class.
Barbarians: What are they going to do against flyers?
Wizards: Steal their spell books and the aren't bending much to their wills.
Fighter: How useful are they when you drop him and his heavy armor in water.
etc...No class has the answer for everything. No matter how self sufficient a class is, sometimes they need help, which is why they are in an adventure party.
...and your assumption that a rogue can't be useful...
1) Synthesist Summoner. Argument now Invalid xD
All kidding aside:
1) What is a rogue doing against flyers? A Barbarian can actually make a decent archer with very minimal feat investment. By grabbing an Adaptive Composite Longbow they can very easily be decent off-ranged characters. This is assuming they got beast totem and not the other totem that lets them fly (I forgot which one it is)
2) That is why EVERYONE always tells you to have spares. Easy day. Oh! And if your a Sorcerer, you laugh at your GM tryign to shut you down like that.
3) Funny thing about Mithril and Armor Training.... just saying...
You are having to go to extreme, stupid corner cases to try and stop the other characters, but the thing is, in most scenerios, they are still capable of doing their job. A rogue is not even capable of that much.
And a rogue can add to a party... but they add less to a party than pretty much any other class. For instance:
Need a scouty guy to look for traps and stuff? Play a Seeker Sorcerer with the shadow (Umbral) bloodline. Easy day. You are even better than the rogue at stealth, you can actually SET UP ambushes, you can actually take out a group of guards your self (use spider climb to travel along the walls in the shadows, then cast a silent charm person or dominate person. Or if you feel really Jiggy, cast a silent Veil on a few of hte guards to make them look like intruders to get the guards to fight each other. Or just drop in a stupid big fireball... your choice), and you can disable magical traps BETTER than a rogue (Dispel for the win). Or you can play a Cryptbreaker Alchemist... or the Archeologist Bard... Oh! And if you want to be really funny, play a Seeker Sorcerer with the Kobold Bloodline... Sneak up, create traps everywhere, then have fun watching the chaos.
Oh and on the topic of not being able to do everything:
Synthesist Summoner says otherwise. Powerful Melee Machine, Effectively a full caster, has plenty of INT for skills, can fly/swim/whatever, can self-heal, Has other Ex and Su abilities of envy (Blindsense anyone?). lol xD.
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You started with "halflings suck at being rogues." I'm going to need more than just normal vision and small weapons.
The agile property means that the strength penalty is meaningless, and we're left with a race whose only disadvantages are 1d3 daggers rather than 1d4 (difference of .5 damage there) and needing a few potions or scrolls of darkvision.
Advantages include +1 to AC and attack rolls, bonuses to Stealth, Adaptable Luck, and access to the Risky Striker feat, which I still think you are underrating.
Two +2 equivalent weapons are not available in anything that can be called the early game.
Carrying capacity matters.
Vision types matter, especially for scouts which is about the only thing small size is a real advantage for. Potions are no substitute because of their short durations.
Charisma is the primary dump stat for everyone for whom it is not a casting stat, but gnomes have a better stat spread for small charisma casters.
Compared to half-orcs (the best CRB rogue race) halflings do less damage, can't sneak in the dark, can't carry as much, and don't have any useful weapon proficiencies.
Compared to small ARG races halflings have the second worst stat array for rogues after gnomes, can't sneak in the dark, and don't get any applicable goodies except +2 perception. For example ratfolk can take half the normal penalty to hide after a bluff check and can trade a moderate perception penalty for scent. Goblins have a whopping +4 dex modifier and +4 to stealth checks on top of their size bonus. Grippli have a climb speed, free net proficiency, and a dose per day of scaling DC poison to which it is immune gratis. Wayangs can carry more and hit harder because they lack a strength penalty, bonuses to stealth and perception, and an arcane SLA they can use to take arcane strike without using a rogue talent on minor magic.
Gnomes, Humans, Half-Elves, Aasimar make better charisma casters.
Halflings are, essentially, fit for no purpose....
You are setting a racial trait that can be replaced with cheap, long-lasting potions as the cornerstone of any race choice. I just really don't understand that. At mid-levels, I can get a wondrous item that gives me the sole reason you think half-orcs are the superior choice. Or I can keep rocking scrolls and potions with no real issue, due to how long they last and how inexpensive they are.
Here we are: The current draft of Rakish Rachel, Human Rogue10, DPR caps out at 165.21.
The current draft of Rakish Rachel relies on flanking, which is assisted by Gang Up and Greater Trip. Her own buffs include haste (10 rounds/day), divine favor (3 uses/day, Quickened if that works in your game), shield, and her bane baldric. Crafting feats really helped her out.
EDIT: It's worth noting that even without flanking (and thus no sneak attack), Rakish Rachel can still achieve a pretty good DPR.
And Rakish Rachel believes that yes, Sneak Attack can be worth it.
-Matt
Cool. But why are her saves so low? With all that gear, I was expecting at least a +10 on all saves. +8 Fort and +7 Will is... risky.
She still has no answer to flying opponents, though. Should get a bow ASAP.
Couldn't you use a Buckler to raise her AC for less gold?
Huh. I thought the Menacing AoMF didn't work if the character is not threatening with unarmed strikes or natural weapons.
It's a nice build, but doesn't really change my opinion about Rogues, since all it proves is that crafting feats are broken and that Rogues can work well when they have double the appropriate WBL.
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Here we are: The current draft of Rakish Rachel, Human Rogue10, DPR caps out at 165.21.
The current draft of Rakish Rachel relies on flanking, which is assisted by Gang Up and Greater Trip. Her own buffs include haste (10 rounds/day), divine favor (3 uses/day, Quickened if that works in your game), shield, and her bane baldric. Crafting feats really helped her out.
EDIT: It's worth noting that even without flanking (and thus no sneak attack), Rakish Rachel can still achieve a pretty good DPR.
And Rakish Rachel believes that yes, Sneak Attack can be worth it.
-Matt
Slightly modified Bard:
CG Medium Humanoid
Init +7; Senses Perception +18,
DEFENSE
AC 29, touch 19, flat-footed 23 (+7 Armor, +1 NA, +1 Deflection, +6 Dex, +2 luck, +2 Shield)
HP 73 (10d8+20)
Fort +7, Ref +17, Will +10
Special Defenses evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense +3,
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee wakizashi +18/+13 (1d6+9/15–20) or piranha strike +16/+11 (1d6+13/15-20) usually +5 to hit and +8 damage from luck plus Good Hope, plus Arcane Strike
Ranged shortbow +14/+9 (1d6-1/x3)
SPELLS (Concentration +14, Save DC 14+Spell Level)
4th: 2/day: Dimension Door, Invisibility (Greater)
3rd: 4/day: Glibness, Good Hope, Haste, 1 more,
2nd: 5/day: Acute Senses, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Tongues, Versatile Weapon,
1st: 6/day: Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Step, Grease, Vanish, Undetectable Alignment,
0th: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation,
STATISTICS
Str 8, Dex 24*, Con 14*, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18*
BAB +7; CMB +6; CMD 26
Feats Arcane Strike, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Piranha Strike Lingering Performance, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Wakizashi), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Wakizashi)
Skills: Acrobatics +20, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +28, Escape Artist +12, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (Arcana) +11, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (Engineering) +11, Knowledge (Geography) +11, Knowledge (History) +11, Knowledge (Local) +14, Knowledge (Nature) +11, Knowledge (Nobility) +11, Knowledge (Religion) +11, Knowledge (Planes) +11, Perception +18, Sense Motive +13, Sleight of Hand +12, Spellcraft +15, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +14,
Languages Common, Elven, Orcish,
Traits Vagabond Child, Fate's Favored
Special archaeologist's luck (7 rds/day, +3 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls), rogue talents (finesse rogue, combat trick), clever explorer +5 (Can take 10 on Disable Device under stress), bardic knowledge +5, lore master (1/day), jack of all trades,
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds (1), potion of lesser restoration (1), wand of cure light wounds (50 charges), probably some miscellaneous other consumables,
Other Gear Boots of Elvenkind, Bane Baldric, Cloak of Resistance +2, Mithral Kikko +2, Belt of Dexterity +4, Headband of Charisma +4, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, +2 Keen Agile Wakizashi, Masterwork Wakizashi, +1 Buckler, ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, attack), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), ioun stone (pink rhomboid), ioun stone (cracked vibrant purple prims - contains shield) shortbow w/20 arrows, dagger, masterwork thief's tools
So...still flat out better at saves and skills (well, when using Luck anyway). And equivalent AC plus the potential for Mirror Image and Greater Invisibility.
Damage now...much better, with +23/+18 for 1d6+2d6+20 with the Bane Baldric and Piranha Strike (+23 if he can use Arcane Strike). +24/+24/+19 with Haste.
DPR should be as follows:
Standard, w/Luck and piranha strike because why not: 31.08
Good Hope + Luck + Arcane Strike: 47.03
Good Hope + Luck + Bane Baldric: 65.25
Good Hope + Luck + Bane Baldric + Haste: 104.71
Good Hope + Luck + Bane Baldric + Haste + Arcane Strike: 115.02
Or around there, anyway. All that's without Flanking or Greater Invisibility, though the damage enhancements would be relatively minimal.
So, yeah. And that was some easy little changes. It's not quite as much as Rachel, but it's close enough that I'd be inclined to say that the +2 to other melee people from Good Hope would make up the difference, I suspect. Definitely the Good Hope + Haste would make it up if they lack another means of Haste. And he can double her Stealth or Bluff via Invisibility and Glibness to boot.
And the whole build is suboptimal for a Bard to boot. He'd do much better damage as an archer (five attacks with Haste at this level), and still have all the out-of-combat stuff.
The vibe I'm getting here is that no DPR is high enough, and no evidence is viable enough. No amount of skill points, class features, sneak attack dice, or damage output can possibly measure up to the awesome power of slow-progression spellcasting.
That being said, I do agree, Deadman, that the Archaeologist is a very strong archetype for what it does, and that it demonstrates a few flaws in the one-for-one archetype system, in which all lost class features have to be replaced by something, even if that something is stronger than the lost feature.
I think I'll leave Rachel where she is. I've proved my point, and that's good enough. Beyond that, haters gunna hate.
I'll also leave this thread alone. I'm starting up a new play-by-post today, with my brand-new Level 1 Rogue.
-Matt
Why do people find it hard to deliver SA?
Improved Initiative alone allows some delivery of SA - just go before the enemies in the first round.
Stunned foes can be SA.
Flanked foes can be SA.
Blinded, cowering, grappled, paralyzed, pinned, feinted...
Don't you rogue players team up with people?
I mean, the party conjurer is summoning monsters you can flank with. The monk is using stunning fist. The barbarian is going crazy in melee and would benefit nicely with +2 to hit from a flanking buddy. The druid is a dire bear grappling the enemy. Or you can just feint with your maxed out Bluff skill. Opportunities should be everywhere, if you actually look at what's going on, *AND* the GM isn't an adversarial metagamer.
Plus, smart party members make choices that help each other for maximum effectiveness... of course if you play with idiots whose choices are all geared for "I must win everything in ONE SHOT, all by myself!" then I pity you; that's a great way to get TPK by wasting resources with stupid decisions.
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The vibe I'm getting here is that no DPR is high enough, and no evidence is viable enough. I think I'll leave Rachel where she is. I've proved my point, and that's good enough. Beyond that, haters gunna hate.
-Matt
Oh, no. She's very solid and would work fine in most parties, even fairly optimized ones. My point is purely that anyone who could make her could probably make a Bard that did even better.
That's all I'm saying.
The vibe I'm getting here is that no DPR is high enough, and no evidence is viable enough. No amount of skill points, class features, sneak attack dice, or damage output can possibly measure up to the awesome power of slow-progression spellcasting.
I think I'll leave Rachel where she is. I've proved my point, and that's good enough. Beyond that, haters gunna hate.
-Matt
Like I said, it's a nice build, but it abuses crafting feats to such an extent that it makes the character's class pretty much insignificant. You can make an Expert viable if you give her double WBL.
Besides, as it's been noted by other posters, the classic Rogue replacements (Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Ranger) can all do the same and probably get much more mileage from crafting items.
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Male Tiefling (Azlanti) Expert 10
CG Medium outsider (native)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+6 armor, +3 shield, +6 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +11, Ref +13, Will +12
Resist cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 agile cestus +17/+12 (1d4+12/19-20)
Tiefling Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +11)
. . 1/day—darkness
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 26
Feats Arcane Strike, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Defensive Combat Training, Weapon Finesse
Traits reactionary, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +19, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +14, Intimidate +14, Perception +14, Spellcraft +14, Stealth +21, Use Magic Device +14; Racial Modifiers +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
Languages Abyssal, Azlanti, Common, Infernal
Combat Gear potion of good hope (4); Other Gear +2 mithral chain shirt, +2 buckler, +3 agile cestus, bane baldric, belt of physical might (dex & con +2), boots of speed, cloak of resistance +3, ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, attack), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), menacing amulet of mighty fists, ring of protection +1, 11,267 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Energy Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Cold attacks.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Energy Resistance, Fire (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Fire attacks.
DPR Against AC 24:
Normal (Including Arcane Strike): 20.01
Flanking: 26.97
Flanking + Haste: 42.63
Flanking + Haste + Bane: 74.73
EDIT:Got Arcane Strike and made Perry a Tiefling instead.
And people say Experts are weak... (Perry still has over 11200gp left, BTW).
And it's all Expert. Nothing to do with the character's race or with crafting feats being incredibly broken. Nope. Not at all. No sir. All the merit goes to the Expert class.
** spoiler omitted **...
You monster. I love you.
What can I say? Experts are OP!
Seriously, though... There's a damn good reason most discussions about class balance assume characters won't double their WBL with crafting feats. They are so overpowered, it makes the discussion moot. One could also say that by 7th level, the only difference between any 2 classes is 2 character levels, because you can always take Leadership and get a cohort of the other class.
I honestly dislike the "SLAs count as spells for feat prerequisites" FAQ, despite it technically making martial classes more powerful. It adds too many loopholes and unexpected consequences to the game.
So far we have a Rogue that is completely dependent on multiclassing (and a trait I'm pretty sure is illegal, because if it's isn't, suddenly every Barbarian and Bard ever have endless rounds of Rage/Performance by level 3~4) and another one who abuses magic item crafting to cheat WBL guidelines...
Wow! Rogues sure are impressive, aren't they?
Wow! Rogues sure are impressive, aren't they?If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
If you get caught, you ain't trying hard enough.
If you did both and still failed...
You're a Rogue!
/canned laughter
I jest I jest.
Totally agree with this.
I recently played my ninja in Bonekeep 1 and 2. It was...interesting. Part two it got bad though. The party wizard decided he was going to use Stinking Cloud and Black Tentacles and cut off half the room. Then the idiot playing the pregen paladin decides to jump into flanking position in just about every fight.
Here is Cinbaa. Built to show the merits of the Warrior class.
Male Human (Azlanti) Warrior 10
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 99 (10d10+40)
Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +10
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee 50% free (+4 greatsword) +21/+16 (2d6+16/17-20)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +15/+10 (1d8+10/19-20/×3)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +8)
. . 1/day—detect magic, feather fall (DC 9), levitate
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +18; CMD 30
Feats Arcane Strike, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Dark Adept, Improved Critical (greatsword), Power Attack
Traits classically schooled, indomitable faith
Skills Climb +10, Intimidate +11, Perception +14, Sense Motive +9, Spellcraft +15, Swim +10
Languages Azlanti, Common, Draconic
Combat Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier; Other Gear +3 breastplate, 50% free (+4 greatsword), +1 adaptive composite longbow, amulet of natural armor +2, bane baldric, belt of physical might (str & con +2), boots of speed, bracers of falcon's aim, cloak of resistance +4, ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, attack), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), ring of protection +1, 950 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Dark Adept Gain detect magic, feather fall, and levitate as spell-like abilities.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
DPR vs AC 24:
Normal (Including Arcane Strike): 49.91
Power Attack: 56.00
Power Attack + Haste: 96.32
Power Attack + Haste + Bane: 140.63
Now stop saying Warrior is a NPC class, you haters! It's obviously a completely viable front-liner!
It appears that Crafting feats are a sore spot. Deadman, you up for making No Crafting versions of our characters to take this to the next level?
Anyone with rogue advice to share is welcome to join me on the comments thread of Rakish Rachel's page, also the soon-to-be home of her sister Raquel le Rake.
-Matt
Would someone explain the (Menacing) amulet of mighty fists to me? I was under the impression that the amulet would not affect a character's attacks made with a manufactured weapon,yet it seems to be calculated into the rapier attacks.
The big reason the bard can count on her buffs is the fact that they are inherent and refresh each day, rather than being something where in the rogues case he has to say "Sorry guys out of scrolls can we please go back to town so I can buy more, or can the wizard please scribe me more thereby using his (wizard) class features?"
It seems to me that gear and a creative interpretation of the rules are what is propping this character up.
Also I believe ultimate campaign espouses no more than a 25% increase in WBL from crafting feats.
On Gang-up as it was layed out that you do not count as your own ally for this feat it does mean that you need three melee all on the same target which depending on party composition and fight mechanics can be quite hard at times.
On saves, an NPC wizard with the NPC heroic array at this point will have DC's of at least 17 on his highest level spells minimum. With a +2 headband, spell focus, and having his leveling and racial attributes spent in int he will have DC's of 21 on his highest level spells.
This means that on fort saves this character need a 9-13, and on will save this character need a 10-14. I would call this rather risky due to no reroll save feats.
Lastly could someone lay out exactly how the dpr was calculated for this character? The numbers I am getting do not match.
Also what does "with opportunist" mean, is this assuming opportunist each round without fail?
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It appears that Crafting feats are a sore spot. Deadman, you up for making No Crafting versions of our characters to take this to the next level?
Anyone with rogue advice to share is welcome to join me on the comments thread of Rakish Rachel's page, also the soon-to-be home of her sister Raquel le Rake.
-Matt
I'm in.
I think I'm going to do an archer build as well as a melee one this time though, it's just a better choice for a Bard specifically, and not one rogues have available as an actual, workable, choice.
I think I'm going to do an archer build as well as a melee one this time though, it's just a better choice for a Bard specifically, and not one rogues have available as an actual, workable, choice.
Yeah... I've seen a few characters who focus on jacking up their Stealth check, taking Hellcat Stealth, buying Sniper's Goggles, and focusing on the snipe-game, but that's more of a defense build than a DPR build. So it's not an actual, workable choice in a conversation about DPR Uber Alles.
Melee is much more dynamic and fun.
-Matt
Before I go forward, I have a question...
I'm seeing a lot of negativity here over anything involving consumable items or contributions from party members.
Is flanking verboten in these sorts of threads?
-Matt
Consumables I'm okayish with. I don't feel they're indicative of the class itself in the long run but they're useful for on the fly boosts.
Flanking is weird. It depends heavily on your group composition and how the DM orients their encounters. Intelligent foes will try to deny you a flank or position themselves such that it is impossible. Higher levels it becomes rather difficult due to the prevalence of flight and teleportation. If you have a Summoner who can drop allies into position for you to flank with, Sneak Attack is saucy. If you rely on just 1 other person to make the flank it's rather lackluster.
Flanking is weird.
I can agree with that. I figure, spending feats on increasing flank opportunities (Gang Up) and locking opponents in place (Trip) should be enough to make flanking viable. The combination worked really well for me in PFS, well enough that 10-11 became too easy for my groups.
But we'll see where the goal posts are after I post Raquel, eh?
-Matt
A draft of Rachel's sister Raquel is up. I'm mostly through factoring in tripping, and she has a few more feats and talents left to spend. DPR is still pretty good, achieving 93.16 with flanking, Opportunist, and a click of her heels.
I've gotten her trip modifier to a point where, against CMD 33 (the average of a group of CR 10 Large-sized Bestiary critters I grabbed yesterday), tripping is always good idea. Her expected DPR never goes down by attempting a trip. However, accounting for Opportunist in the final DPR calculation is pretty nutty. Accounting for any AOs received from the prone enemy standing up is even nuttier.
One might notice that DPR doesn't increase by very much on a trip for the most part. Well, that's because Raquel quickly hits the point where she is hitting her prone foe on a 2, beyond which any more attack bonuses don't matter, and anything which would let her sacrifice her attack bonus for more damage would also take away from her trip check... which is probably a bad idea, considering that one of the most common complaints about the Rogue is its inability to raise its attack bonus.
-Matt
TriOmega, I think the one good thing about Gang Up is that it helps so much versus large+ opponents. Medium? Might as well do nothing. If you have a larger party or melee focuses party, it's almost impossible to not get the flanking bonus on grounded dragons.
Definitely a campaign/GM dependent feat. I find myself barely seeing these types of opponents in my campaigns. All humans and humanoids. Trips (such as Matt's character) comes in strong there.
Still, no class depends on things like this as much as Rogues. Maybe some specialty casters that require mind-affecting spells.
A draft of Rachel's sister Raquel is up. I'm mostly through factoring in tripping, and she has a few more feats and talents left to spend. DPR is still pretty good, achieving 93.16 with flanking, Opportunist, and a click of her heels.
I've gotten her trip modifier to a point where, against CMD 33 (the average of a group of CR 10 Large-sized Bestiary critters I grabbed yesterday), tripping is always good idea. Her expected DPR never goes down by attempting a trip. However, accounting for Opportunist in the final DPR calculation is pretty nutty. Accounting for any AOs received from the prone enemy standing up is even nuttier.
One might notice that DPR doesn't increase by very much on a trip for the most part. Well, that's because Raquel quickly hits the point where she is hitting her prone foe on a 2, beyond which any more attack bonuses don't matter, and anything which would let her sacrifice her attack bonus for more damage would also take away from her trip check... which is probably a bad idea, considering that one of the most common complaints about the Rogue is its inability to raise its attack bonus.
-Matt
Excuse me but would you mind responding to the post I made Here when you have the chance?
Specifically the Menacing amulet and DPR calc portions?
Just for clarity the formula I use for DPR is as follows:
The damage formula is h(d+s)+tchd.
h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage
d = Damage per hit. Average damage is assumed.
s = Precision damage per hit (or other damage that isn't multiplied on a crit). Average damage is again assumed.
t = Chance to roll a critical threat, expressed as a percentage.
c = Critical hit bonus damage. x2 = 1, x3 = 2, x4 = 3.
Sorry to be a bother but just curious.
Specifically the Menacing amulet and DPR calc portions?
Sure, real quick here...
You've got the DPR formula right, and check out how menacing works.
Menacing: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. This weapon property helps allies deal with flanked foes. When the wielder is adjacent to a creature that is being flanked by an ally, the flanking bonus on attack rolls for all flanking allies increases by +2. This ability works even if the wielder is not one of the characters flanking the creature.
Am I about to hear about the "what does 'wielding' mean" problem?
As for Opportunist, what I did there was have Rachel and Raquel roll another attack at full BAB. Its DPR contribution is the expected value of the extra attack.
-Matt