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Bardic response to Lemmy's posted character, intentionally designed to be as similar as possible in the sense of entirely subsuming the Rogue's role, and using similar tactics:
CG Medium Humanoid
Init +7; Senses Perception +18,
DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 19, flat-footed 21 (+7 Armor, +1 NA, +1 Deflection, +6 Dex, +2 luck)
HP 68 (10d8+20) (I'm pretty sure this'd be 73 by PFS, but whatever)
Fort +8, Ref +18, Will +11
Special Defenses evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense +3,
OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee scimitar +18/+13 (1d6+9/15–20) usually +5 to hit and +8 damage from luck plus Good Hope, plus Arcane Strike
Ranged shortbow +14/+9 (1d6-1/x3)
SPELLS (Concentration +14, Save DC 14+Spell Level)
4th: 2/day: Dimension Door, Invisibility (Greater)
3rd: 4/day: Glibness, Good Hope, Haste, 1 more,
2nd: 5/day: Acute Senses, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Tongues, Versatile Weapon,
1st: 6/day: Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Step, Grease, Vanish, Undetectable Alignment,
0th: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation,
STATISTICS
Str 8, Dex 24*, Con 14*, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 18*
BAB +7; CMB +6; CMD 26
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes, Craft Wondrous Item, Dervish Dance, Lingering Performance, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scimitar), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Skills: Acrobatics +20, Bluff +12, Diplomacy +12, Disable Device +28, Escape Artist +19, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (Arcana) +11, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +15, Knowledge (Engineering) +11, Knowledge (Geography) +11, Knowledge (History) +11, Knowledge (Local) +11, Knowledge (Nature) +11, Knowledge (Nobility) +11, Knowledge (Religion) +11, Knowledge (Planes) +11, Linguistics +6, Perception +18, Perform (Dance) +9, Sense Motive +13, Sleight of Hand +11, Spellcraft +15, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +10,
Languages Common, Elven, Orcish, Dwarven,
Traits Vagabond Child, Fate's Favored
Special archaeologist's luck (7 rds/day, +3 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls), rogue talents (finesse rogue, combat trick), clever explorer +5 (Can take 10 on Disable Device under stress), bardic knowledge +5, lore master (1/day), jack of all trades,
Combat Gear potion of cure moderate wounds (1), potion of lesser restoration (1), wand of cure light wounds (50 charges), probably some miscellaneous other consumables,
Other Gear Boots of Elvenkind, Cloak of Resistance +3, Mithral Kikko +2, Belt of Dexterity +4, Headband of Charisma +4, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, +2 Keen Scimitar, Masterwork Scimitar, ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, attack), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), ioun stone (pink rhomboid), shortbow w/20 arrows, dagger, masterwork thief's tools
So...there's that. He doesn't do the Trip thing, or have nearly as much Linguistics. He's got Tongues for the second problem, though, and spells, I think, have enough utility to make up for the first.
He's got Combat Reflexes to get some AoO if it comes to it.
He attacks at +23/+18 for 1d6+17, and criticals on a 15-20 with one turn of buffing. If given an extra turn (which, with Invisibility and Stealth +20 he oughtta be able to get most times) it's at +24/+24/+19 via Haste, though the damage remains the same. I'm crap at DPR calculations, so if someone could do that it'd be great.
A few of his skills and saves are lower than the Rogue when he isn't using his luck...but all are uniformly better when he is, and he has ranks in a lot of skills the rogue doesn't (+11 to all Knowledge skills, sans Luck). And then he has spells to enhance them as well.
His AC is three higher than the rogue's normally, and one lower when he's Hasted and the rogue has gotten Offensive Defense. Of course, he has Greater Invisibility and Mirror Image...
He does abuse item-crafting quite a bit...but he bought the Feat to do it (and maxed out the skill), something a Rogue couldn't manage nearly as well, so it seems fair to me.
And that Bard got proficiency with scimitars by virtue of his class. Krook had to cheat and get it from his race.
EDIT: Actually... No he didn't. Your Bard is not proficient with his main weapon. Might want to fix that.
The reason he has Linguistics is because Tengu get 2 known languages per rank in Linguistics... That's too good a deal to pass up. :D)
I'm saddened by the fact that you didn't go for the Trip build. Dex-based Bards can get a pretty sick CMB.
Why not spare us the work and calculate its AC, CMB, CMD, saves, to-hit and damage?- Dipping other classes to make it work doesn't speak well of the Rogue class. Your proficiency with your main weapon and 2 bonus feats come from the Fighter level. How about trying a pure Rogue?
- That Eldritch Heritage is pretty meh. Spend a standard action buff someone for... 1 round. Basically, you can't use it on yourself.
- Fury's Fall boosts his Trip CMB by a grand total of... +1.
- That Belt of Str +4 means you can't raise Con or Dex for quite a while. Let's hope you don't need AC, saves or HP.
- Powerful Sneak hurts your DPR more than it helps. It's a horrible talent in a long line of horrible talents.
- Minor Magic is garbage. Yet another useless prerequisite.
- Thug is a nice archetype, too bad it removes one of the iconic Rogue class features.
- You're assuming you'll catch your opponent by surprise, even though your initiative is pretty low (+1, maybe +3 with a trait).Ahem...
"This example of a rogue looks like one made by someone who has never played the class before. It looks like you were trying to build a sup-optimal rogue to prove a point. Either that or you should NEVER give rogue advice to anyone."
Since I didn't do magic items I see no point in calculating the stuff that comes with it. Everyone has the same money so it is almost a wash. As for your other comments.
- Eldritch Heritage buff lasts for 4 to 7 rounds.
- Fury's Fall will boost Trip CMB more with a dex item (as I said I didn't do magic items)
- When a target has no dex and -4 to AC, I think i can risk a -2 for bigger sneaks.
- Minor Magic opens up Arcane Strike which is +3 damage
- The Iconic Rogue class feature has been described as useless by you and many of your friends
The rogue is not going to be out front so I think great AC against one attack is decent. Even without any magic, this build does decent damage (far more than your rogue or proposed bards) and is functional. With magic it would be just too wide a margin to talk about. How does that make for a bad rogue?
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And that Bard got proficiency with scimitars by virtue of his class. Krook had to cheat and get it from his race. (The reason he has Linguistics is because Tengu get 2 known languages per rank in Linguistics... That's too good a deal to pass up. :D)
I'm saddened by the fact that you didn't go for the Trip build. Dex-based Bards can get a pretty sick CMB.
Actually, s!@%, no they don't by default. I totally spaced that. One moment while I drop Lunge for it...
I could easily do more damage as a Dawnflower Dervish (and get the Proficiency)...but that build would lack Trapfinding and Evasion, so it could still be argued Rogue was better in some way.
As for Trip...I was tempted, but the Feats just wound up being too big an investment.
So...DPR calculation from someone?
What is WBL? ...and after all the demands that I post a build, is that the only comment on it?I have no idea how you guys are deciding what equipment you allowStandard WBL.Pop open Game Mastering and pull up the Character Wealth by Level chart.
Or you can go here. Wealth is the last column.
Thanks Scavion.
Actually, s!%@, no they don't by default. I totally spaced that. One moment while I drop Lunge for it...And that Bard got proficiency with scimitars by virtue of his class. Krook had to cheat and get it from his race. (The reason he has Linguistics is because Tengu get 2 known languages per rank in Linguistics... That's too good a deal to pass up. :D)
I'm saddened by the fact that you didn't go for the Trip build. Dex-based Bards can get a pretty sick CMB.
Yeah, sadly only the Dawnflower Dervish bard archetype gets that by default.
I'm going to try to get a bigger post in tonight, been busy with school, sorry for the lack of input. Thank you to everyone for posting, really appreciate it.
Actually, s$%#, no they don't by default. I totally spaced that. One moment while I drop Lunge for it...
You could do Dervish Dancer and dip Pathfinder Delver like me =P
I find it odd that there are two Dervish archetypes.
Thanks Scavion.
Anytime. I'm a citation machine.
Since I didn't do magic items I see no point in calculating the stuff that comes with it. Everyone has the same money so it is almost a wash. As for your other comments.
Then put that money to use. Buy armor and weapons and see how high those bonuses get. I'm guessing your AC will be rather low with light armor proficiency and Dex 13 (And your certainly can't afford a belt of Str +4/Dex +4 at 10th level)
- Eldritch Heritage buff lasts for 4 to 7 rounds.
Does it now?
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
You can use it multiple times, but each time it lasts a single round.
- Fury's Fall will boost Trip CMB more with a dex item (as I said I didn't do magic items)
Even with items that will be a +4 at best. And a belt of Str/Dex +4 costs 40000gp. About 66% of your WBL.
- When a target has no dex and -4 to AC, I think i can risk a -2 for bigger sneaks.
I don't see how you are getting them flat-footed all the time.
- Minor Magic opens up Arcane Strike which is +3 damage
Hope it's worth two feats...
- The Iconic Rogue class feature has been described as useless by you and many of your friends
Indeed. It is quite useless... And iconic.
The rogue is not going to be out front so I think great AC against one attack is decent. Even without any magic, this build does decent damage (far more than your rogue or proposed bards) and is functional. With magic...
If he's not going out front, how do you propose he make his enemies "flat-footed, sickened and prone"? Hell, how does he even affect his enemies? His damage is still very situational. It's considerably lower than any Bard when he can't flank (and a lot lower than a Bard's DPR + the extra damage gained by giving the whole party an extra attack and +4 to hit). His +1 initiative means he won't get many enemies flat-footed either.
I find it odd that there are two Dervish archetypes.
Yeah, whoops. I think I may have meant the other archetype. There's also a Fighter archetype called Dawnflower Dervish.
Because. Just because.
EDIT:
It looks like Bladelock is making use of the Seven-branch sword to 'trip' opponents into a flat-footed state.
Since I didn't do magic items I see no point in calculating the stuff that comes with it. Everyone has the same money so it is almost a wash. As for your other comments.Then put that money to use. Buy armor and weapons and see how high those bonuses get. I'm guessing your AC will be rather low with light armor proficiency and Dex 13 (And your certainly can't afford a belt of Str +4/Dex +4 at 10th level)
- Eldritch Heritage buff lasts for 4 to 7 rounds.Does it now?
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.You can use it multiple times, but each time it lasts a single round.
- Fury's Fall will boost Trip CMB more with a dex item (as I said I didn't do magic items)Even with items that will be a +4 at best. And a belt of Str/Dex +4 costs 40000gp. About 66% of your WBL.
- When a target has no dex and -4 to AC, I think i can risk a -2 for bigger sneaks.I don't see how you are getting them flat-footed all the time.
- Minor Magic opens up Arcane Strike which is +3 damageHope it's worth two feats...
- The Iconic Rogue class feature has been described as useless by you and many of your friendsIndeed. It is quite useless... And iconic.
The rogue is not going to be out front so I think great AC against one attack is decent. Even without any magic, this build does decent damage (far more than your rogue or proposed bards) and is functional. With magic...If hes not going out front, how do you propose he make his enemies "flat-footed, sickened and prone"? His damage is still very situational. It's quite lower than any Bard when...
Your tone is very rude Lemmy. Try to be civil. I will explain the build for you.
1) a seven branched sword can leave a target flat footed with a trip attack
2) My traits extend moral bonuses by 2+1d4 rounds, so the EH feat lasts 3+1d4 rounds
3) Even a +2 to trip is worth the feat since it is a major part of the build
4) Yes, Arcane Strike is worth a one talent and one feat.
5) The rogue will not start up front but can move in after the tank. Since his targets will be debuffed and making at best one attack against me (hopefully none) I'm ok giving up a few AC points.
1) a seven branched sword can leave a target flat footed with a trip attack
2) My traits extend moral bonuses by 2+1d4 rounds, so the EH feat lasts 3+1d4 rounds
3) Even a +2 to trip is worth the feat since it is a major part of the build
4) Yes, Arcane Strike is worth a one talent and one feat.
5) The rogue will not start up front but can move in after the tank. Since his targets will be debuffed and making at best one attack against me (hopefully none) I'm ok giving up a few AC points.
1) Ah, so a Rogue couldn't do it... Luckily, a Fighter can. Hmmm... Somehow my opinion of Rogues didn't go up. (Also, what are your CMB and to-hit again?)
2) I don't know those traits.3)Doesn't matter. You can't afford that belt for quite a while. 40k gp is a lot of money, you know.
4)If you say so...
5)In which case you deliver a single Sneak Attack at best... And then is mauled by the surviving enemy. How are those AC, HP and saves again? Love how you always assume everything will go exactly according to plan for the Rogue, every sequence of events will happen in the most beneficial way... He's always flanking and full attacking, but somehow, never in melee when it's the enemy's turn. He never has to make any save and his targets are always flat-footed. Well, I guess that's one way to make a character effective: Just have her roll natural 20s all day long.
BTW, Powerful Sneak will, at best, give your Rogue a +10 damage per round (in which case, he only rolled 1s on both Sneak Attacks, so it's still crappy damage) in exchange for a 10% drop in accuracy. It's a horrible, horrible talent.
Currently the only real effective Rogue builds are STR and Thuggish builds that focus on bludgeoning people unconscious.
It depends on what you mean with effective though. A TWF rogue or dervish dancer rogue or many other rogues can pull their own weight in a standard 1-15 AP, I think, at least until the last book.
1) a seven branched sword can leave a target flat footed with a trip attack
2) My traits extend moral bonuses by 2+1d4 rounds, so the EH feat lasts 3+1d4 rounds
3) Even a +2 to trip is worth the feat since it is a major part of the build
4) Yes, Arcane Strike is worth a one talent and one feat.
5) The rogue will not start up front but can move in after the tank. Since his targets will be debuffed and making at best one attack against me (hopefully none) I'm ok giving up a few AC points.1) Ah, so a Rogue couldn't do it... Luckily, a Fighter can. Hmmm... Somehow my opinion of Rogues didn't go up. (Also, what are your CMB and to-hit again?)
2) I don't know that trait.
3)Doesn't matter. You can't afford that belt for quite a while. 40k gp is a lot of money, you know.
4)If you say so...
5)In which case you deliver a single Sneak Attack at best... And then is mauled by the surviving enemy. How are those AC, HP and saves again? Love how you always assume everything will go exactly according to plan for the Rogue... He's always flanking and full attacking, but somehow, never in melee when it's the enemy's turn. He never has to make any save and his targets are always flat-footed. Well, I guess that's one way to make a character effective: Just have her roll natural 20s all day long.
Let me explain further. If I run up with character I can make a trip attempt to make the target flatfooted. I would then get an attack of opportunity for the successful trip. I would attack with a sneak attack minus one 1d6 to sicken the target. Every other target will get that opening attack plus my second iterative attack.
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Of course they will... Your Rogue full-attacks everyone but is never attacked in return. He lands every hit and every hit is a Sneak Attack.
Now, how about building a Rogue instead of a Fighter?
BTW, how high is your Rogue's skill bonuses? With dex 13 and nothing else boosting his skill, I fail to see how he's a better skill monkey than any other class. And if he's not supposed to be a skill monkey, why even bother playing a Rogue?
You have said that rogues can't be better at skills than other classes, and even if they are then those skills are redundant. Since this build isn't even touching bluff, I'm sure I can max out all the standard rogue skills... but once again, according to you, that is useless.
This discussion was about rogue damage. You said that a Bard does it better. You wanted me to make a build. You may not like how I got to a combat round that causes the conditions Flatfooted, Prone, and Sickened in the first round while delivering 2x 1d10, +17, +5d6, +magic (4d6 on the first att) damage, but it's still hard to argue with the results. As for hitting with trips, a rogue is only 3BAB behind fighter at lvl 10. I think debuffing and feats taken make up that difference to get a decent effective CMB.
Not certain why you have sent so much hostility my way. The only thing my first post said was that SA didn't suck and there are lots of ways to get them off.
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DPR on my bard vs. AC 24:
One attack: 25
Full Attack: 43.83
Full Atack w/Haste: 70.336
I probably screwed that up a bit...but not that much. Further attack bonuses (like flanking) help a little, but not that much, as they only increase the third attack's odds. Even with Flanking and Greater Invisibility the second one only goes up to 50, and the third to 75.
Still...that's very much on par with Lemmy's Rogue (definitively better if he's got prep-time...and he might as well have been designed to give himself prep-time given his sneakiness). He's not very optimized for anything but Being A Better Rogue, either. An optimized Bard could do quite a bit better, damage-wise.
He also provides his party with Good Hope and Haste, which is so much better than anything the rogue gives them it's not even funny.
It depends on what you mean with effective though. A TWF rogue or dervish dancer rogue or many other rogues can pull their own weight in a standard 1-15 AP, I think, at least until the last book.
Rise of the Runelords is quite deadly from Book 2 onwards. Most APs are easy mode designed for 15 PB(Which hurts Rogues vastly) where any amount of optimization will let you waltz through it. DMs playing monsters to the extent of their abilities will hurt the Rogue's(And by extension Martials in general) effectiveness vastly. Simple tactics such as avoiding flanks at the cost of weak Attacks of Opportunity, corners, hallways and so forth. While you can mitigate some of these through having a party that really tries to get you those sneak attacks, the risk vs reward for it is so underwhelming you might as well play something more self sufficient that synergizes and puts back more into the party.
Heck even Bladelock's STR Rogue gets shut down by a 20gp consumables or a dark alley.
I don't have an issue with your build Bladelock as I've said before that the only effective Rogue builds are strength builds. Opportunistic Gambler is a trait that was released before PF really came into it's own and most DMs wouldn't allow it since it's a Campaign trait and only supposed to be used for that Campaign. To put it in perspective, it gives Barbarians for example anywhere between 100% and 400% more rage rounds.
What I think Lemmy and others are missing here is that this is Pathfinder.
It's about PNP Roleplaying, not just a minis battle game and not something you "win" at.
You can't measure the value of a character class by a DPR graph, that's shallow, two dimensional thinking.
Characters are as good as the imagination of the person playing them and character classes like the rogue are made as a party asset that can help in many ways both in combat and out.
Sneak attack as an ability is useful tool, but like any tool, its not always the right tool for the job.
It's not the only tool in the rogues toolbox.
A rogue can stealth past enemies without even resorting to melee (study Sun Tzu, this is also a victory against an enemy).
If the party encounters traps, you will be glad the rogue is with you.
Besides complaining about a rouges melee capabilities (like sneak attack) without considering the value of the rogue as a whole is like complaining that the Wizard is useless because his familiar has poor melee characteristics.
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What I think Lemmy and others are missing here is that this is Pathfinder.
It's about PNP Roleplaying, not just a minis battle game and not something you "win" at.
You can't measure the value of a character class by a DPR graph, that's shallow, two dimensional thinking.
Characters are as good as the imagination of the person playing them and character classes like the rogue are made as a party asset that can help in many ways both in combat and out.
Sneak attack as an ability is useful tool, but like any tool, its not always the right tool for the job.It's not the only tool in the rogues toolbox.
A rogue can stealth past enemies without even resorting to melee (study Sun Tzu, this is also a victory against an enemy).If the party encounters traps, you will be glad the rogue is with you.
Besides complaining about a rouges melee capabilities (like sneak attack) without considering the value of the rogue as a whole is like complaining that the Wizard is useless because his familiar has poor melee characteristics.
It's not all about the DPR. It's not all about sneak attack.
You can put the high horse back in the stable.
The Rogue sucks at all positions that it is supposed to fill.
It has no clear role.
Everything it does, some other class does better.
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It's not all about the DPR. It's not all about sneak attack.
You can put the high horse back in the stable.
That was my hobby horse, my high horse is much bigger.
The Rogue sucks at all positions that it is supposed to fill.
It has no clear role.
Everything it does, some other class does better.
Well, that is a bold claim. but you have not proven it yet.
What do you have to back it up?Also a characters "role" is whatever the player wants it to be. That's why its called a role playing game.
Heck even Bladelock's STR Rogue gets shut down by a 20gp consumables or a dark alley.I don't have an issue with your build Bladelock as I've said before that the only effective Rogue builds are strength builds. Opportunistic Gambler is a trait that was released before PF really came into it's own and most DMs wouldn't allow it since it's a Campaign trait and only supposed to be used for that Campaign. To put it in perspective, it gives Barbarians for example anywhere between 100% and 400% more rage rounds.
The community trait is just a regional one. It gives a flat 2 round bonus and it just came out recently. However after the last few hours I have come up with a several other ways to make nicely powered rogues.
Sap Master build... even more damage
Movement monster with a Whip... lots of free movement and perfect positioning every round
My total Debuffer... lighter on the damage but total stat destruction, and looks most like a traditional rogue.
I'm sure there are a lot more as well. If people want to do more hating on rogue, or are curious, maybe I will put them up later this week. RL calls. Have a nice night!!
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The community trait is just a regional one.
Ah using the ol' "you are your own ally" to your advantage. Good good. There definitely needs to be more of those options for Non-casters because Casters get all the fun abusing those.
What I think Lemmy and others are missing here is that this is Pathfinder.
It's about PNP Roleplaying, not just a minis battle game and not something you "win" at.
Mate. We're not talking about characters we're talking about classes. If you get purposefully offended since we're talking about one of the classes of the game then I don't even know what to tell you. You can play a fine character. That doesn't make the class not underpowered.
You can't measure the value of a character class by a DPR graph, that's shallow, two dimensional thinking.
You'll note we don't really. Damage is only 1 segment of a character and should be something everyone can contribute to if they're not contributing to combat in other ways(Spellcasting, Enemy lockdown and so forth). If you'd read any of my first posts you'd find that I talk quite a bit about the rest of the Rogue. It lacks skill synergy. It gets lots of skills, but has no features that make them particularly good at those skills. A Ranger is exactly the same as a Rogue when sneaking except can be situationally better due to Favored Terrain.
Characters are as good as the imagination of the person playing them and character classes like the rogue are made as a party asset that can help in many ways both in combat and out.
Sneak attack as an ability is useful tool, but like any tool, its not always the right tool for the job.
Basically what the DM lets you do you mean. Imagination will only get you so far. You can come up with a cool plan but that doesn't hold out if your class isn't up to par.
I'll agree about Sneak Attack, except it's probably your only tool in combat.
If the party encounters traps, you will be glad the rogue is with you.
Or a Trapper Ranger, an Archeologist, a Seeker Sorcerer or Oracle, Trap Wrecker Barbarian, Cryptbreaker Alchemist and anyone who dipped Pathfinder Delver or took the Trapfinder talent. And everyone here can fight better and four of them can do skills just as well if not better.
Besides complaining about a rouges melee capabilities (like sneak attack) without considering the value of the rogue as a whole is like complaining that the Wizard is useless because his familiar has poor melee characteristics.
It's ranged capabilities are even worse. No ranged flanking and few options to get ranged sneak attack except trying the obscuring mist fog cutting lense combo that costs 8,000 gold and limited number of times per day. Not to mention gimmicky and gets shut down easily.
I'm honestly appalled you think this is only about damage. It's like you haven't read anything of the thread.
Rogues aren't great at skills just because they have lots of them. Many skills are outright trivialized by magic or dangerous to use in situations. Would you rather climb the cliff while a storm rages or spider climb and get a climb speed? Would you rather rely on your swim check or get a swim speed and waterbreathing?
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It's not all about the DPR. It's not all about sneak attack.
You can put the high horse back in the stable.
That was my hobby horse, my high horse is much bigger.
The Rogue sucks at all positions that it is supposed to fill.
It has no clear role.
Everything it does, some other class does better.
Well, that is a bold claim. but you have not proven it yet.
What do you have to back it up?Also a characters "role" is whatever the player wants it to be. That's why its called a role playing game.
You know what I mean by "role".
Why don't you take a look at those trying to make the Rogue work?
It has some good points on what the Rogue lacks.
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Also a characters "role" is whatever the player wants it to be. That's why its called a role playing game.
This is entirely true, and is a large part of why the Rogue as currently written is a waste of ink. I don't need to be a Rogue to make a rogue. If my character's "role" is someone who destroys opponents by striking them where it hurts before they even know I'm there, I'll play a Slayer or a Vivisectionist. If my character's "role" is a crafty sneak thief or someone who can talk her way out of any situation, I'll play a Bard.
All of the character concepts the Rogue is supposed to fill are better played with other classes, and that's what bothers those who are critical of the Rogue's design. We like the fluff, we just wish the crunch did what it claimed to.
All of the character concepts the Rogue is supposed to fill are better played with other classes, and that's what bothers those who are critical of the Rogue's design. We like the fluff, we just wish the crunch did what it claimed to.
Bingo.
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Also a characters "role" is whatever the player wants it to be. That's why its called a role playing game.This is entirely true, and is a large part of why the Rogue as currently written is a waste of ink. I don't need to be a Rogue to make a rogue. If my character's "role" is someone who destroys opponents by striking them where it hurts before they even know I'm there, I'll play a Slayer or a Vivisectionist. If my character's "role" is a crafty sneak thief or someone who can talk her way out of any situation, I'll play a Bard.
All of the character concepts the Rogue is supposed to fill are better played with other classes, and that's what bothers those who are critical of the Rogue's design. We like the fluff, we just wish the crunch did what it claimed to.
Dipping a few levels of Rogue can indeed be handy in building the Rogue concept. So 1- (say) 4 aren't a waste of ink.
Of course I don't know much about the Slayer class.
Has there ever been a ruling on whether use of invisibility or a successful Stealth counts toward triggering the Underhanded talent?
Bladelock can you please finish and post your build? I really want to see if it's as good as you say it is.
And if you could do it without using non-PFS legal 3.5 material even better.
There is no need to include DPR calculations if you don't know how to calculate DPR, i will gladly do those for your build myself and post them.
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Bladelock can you please finish and post your build? I really want to see if it's as good as you say it is.
And if you could do it without using non-PFS legal 3.5 material even better.
There is no need to include DPR calculations if you don't know how to calculate DPR, i will gladly do those for your build myself and post them.
I'll second this. I wanna see some numbers.
There is no 3.5 material in the build I posted, and as far as I know it's PFS legal. If you see something that isn't, please let me know. Still digging into PF.
I'm not using whatever builder others seem to have so feel free to crunch the numbers if you like the idea. I also avoid giving a build magic items because you never know what a dm will allow. If you can buy anything, every build has access to the same equipment so it's a wash. Adding it just doesn't make a lot if sense to me.
Also, I wasn't saying my build was "so great," I was just showing that sneak attack in specific, and rogue combat in general, were not all bad. The build above totally locks a target down and does solid solo SA damage. You can decide if that is good or not for your style play.
Also, I wasn't saying my build was "so great," I was just showing that sneak attack in specific, and rogue combat in general, were not all bad. The build above totally locks a target down and does solid solo SA damage. You can decide if that is good or not for your style play.Meh, it really doesn't. Maybe if you are playing against nothing but classed non spellcasting humanoids it might do something useful but by level 10 you are regularly facing things like:
Bebilith: CMD46 versus trip
Guardian Naga: Cannot be tripped full stop
Hezrou: CMD29 so great you trip them and they move to long range with SLA greater teleport
Purple Worm: CMD40, cannot be tripped
Elder Air Elemental: CMD49, immune to trip as they fly, immune to your sneak attack as well, good luck being useless.Trip is a strategy for failing after about level 6-8.
You are deliberately singling out the hardest creatures a party would fight, and which they'd rarely fight. Even at high level, parties are still usually fighting lots of humanoids and monstrous humanoids.
I once had a high level fighter who specialized in using reach weapons to stop enemy martials from moving around by getting free CMs against anyone who provoked AoOs. It was a very successful build that basically shut down anyone who relied on full attacks (CMB regularly hit into the 40s).
Also, I wasn't saying my build was "so great," I was just showing that sneak attack in specific, and rogue combat in general, were not all bad. The build above totally locks a target down and does solid solo SA damage. You can decide if that is good or not for your style play.Meh, it really doesn't. Maybe if you are playing against nothing but classed non spellcasting humanoids it might do something useful but by level 10 you are regularly facing things like:
Bebilith: CMD46 versus trip
Guardian Naga: Cannot be tripped full stop
Hezrou: CMD29 so great you trip them and they move to long range with SLA greater teleport
Purple Worm: CMD40, cannot be tripped
Elder Air Elemental: CMD49, immune to trip as they fly, immune to your sneak attack as well, good luck being useless.Trip is a strategy for failing after about level 6-8.
No build has the answer for everything.
However I also want you to keep in mind that a true strike wand can be obtained and used in a pinch, and some of those bad guys will be flanked. Just saying...
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You are deliberately singling out the hardest creatures a party would fight, and which they'd rarely fight. Even at high level, parties are still usually fighting lots of humanoids and monstrous humanoids.
Of the CR 10 Paizo-made creatures on d20pfsrd, over half (excluding dragons, who are very trippable...if they aren't flying) have CMDs of 35+ (often much higher, 37-39 wasn't uncommon) or are immune to trip.
So no, that was a reasonable sampling.
Some things will still need to be flanked, and if it can take out a party in a few rounds it likely will be.
Taking an extra round to immobalize a threat seems reasonable to me. As I said before, I didn't claim any of my builds are, or would be gods gift. I simply said they made effective use of SA... and they do.
Once invisibility ends you are no longer invisible and have no clause to sneak attack. This is the same whether you use iterative attacks, or even two weapon fighting to stab someone at the same time.Frankly, if you want to think like that, why should you even get SA on the first attack anyways? After all, if Invis drops immediately when you attack, your first attack doesn't hit while you're Invis. so why should you get the benefit under RAW?
RAI if you attack with invis you get the benefit even if you lose invis; including iterative attacks that come at the same time.
If your group came from 4th edition, most of you should be aware that by RAW, they explicitly spelled out in stealth and concealment that "If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action." In the first printing of the books, this explicit explanation wasn't there, but was errata'd after some people asked about it.
In that edition, an action can consist of multiple attack rolls at once, such as an AoE effect like Fireball, or a power that grants multiple attacks against the same target. However, Sneak Attack in 4e can normally only be used once per turn. Thus, the rules allowed for you to get the bonus of Combat Advantage for multiple attack rolls in one action, but you could only apply Sneak Attack once.
And from 3.0/3.5, there's been numerous remarks and articles (such as from the Rules of the Game article on sneak attacks) from designers that say you do get the benefits of the Invisibility spell for your first attack, and only until your first attack resolves. Also, in a similar fashion to 4e, exactly when the benefits of stealth and concealment ends is also inferred to in the Stealth skill, where it says "Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below)."
Meh, it really doesn't. Maybe if you are playing against nothing but classed non spellcasting humanoids it might do something useful but by level 10 you are regularly facing things like:Bebilith: CMD46 versus trip
Guardian Naga: Cannot be tripped full stop
Hezrou: CMD29 so great you trip them and they move to long range with SLA greater teleport
Purple Worm: CMD40, cannot be tripped
Elder Air Elemental: CMD49, immune to trip as they fly, immune to your sneak attack as well, good luck being useless.Trip is a strategy for failing after about level 6-8.
I took a look at the monsters you listed, and with the exception of the elemental, which is immune to sneak damage, none of the monsters say they are immune from the combat maneuver trip. The Seven Branched Sword doesn't knock a target prone, it pulls them off balance to make them flat footed. That has nothing to do with legs. Let me know if I'm missing something.
melee:
nature soul + animal ally feats
boom, full advancement customizable flanking buddy. no more getting anyone in the party out of position to facilitate YOUR ENTIRE COMBAT ENGINE.
archer:
stealth abuse (5-foot-step + HiPS (various sources)) + sniper goggles
or just use a wand of tiny hut and fire out of that (they cant see you = free sneak attacks)
feat investment yes, takes a good deal of headache out of actually USING rogues in battle, and not just serving as an arrow-magnet and overall layabout.
not the end-all-be-all build stuff, obviously.
A bit off-topic from the rogue-specific talk going on, but how many feats do you guys think it is worth to help enable Sneak Attacks?
TWF Sneak Attack's problems are two-fold. Not only does Sneak Attack suffer immensely when you are cannot make a full-attack, but without having a good number of feats dedicated to enabling Sneak Attack you often are in positions where you can make a full-attack, but not Sneak Attack.
So, for a class like Slayer or Rogue, a melee focused-Vivisectionist alchemist, or a Fighter who dipped Rogue to get some Sneak Attack die, how many feats or feat trees (such as Imp Feint line or Animal Ally line) is it worth spending on Sneak Attack enablers? Obviously it all depends on how many feats you have, but I think a Swashbuckler Rogue (normal feat progression, 3/4 BAB, 2 combat feats and Weapon Finesse from Rogue talents) is a good base. More feats = less cost of picking up Sneak Attack feats.
If a character has Gang Up, is that enough? Or should he have Gang Up and Imp Two-Weapon Feint? Let's say around level 10 or 12, just because that's where PFS caps and is a good point where your build NEEDS to work.
Personally, I think having one feat tree is enough. Gang Up is probably nice to tack on if it's 1 feat away, perhaps moreso if your GM plays it that you count as your own ally in that situation or if you have two melee party members (not relying on summons/animal companions). I really like the Animal Ally chain AndIMustMask posted, but I also know I don't like tacking on an animal companion onto any build. Strong, but not great thematically in all cases.
Thoughts?