Is Armor Class useless?


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Artanthos wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Avenger wrote:
What do you do when you play a character focused on AC, and the DM ramps up the game by throwing monsters that hit you 50% of the time? (95% of the time other party members)
You get hitted 45% less times than the rest of the party.

There is no winning a war of escalation with a DM.

I once had a DM rule all opponents were 95% magic resistant after my wizard took out his pet BBEG.

of course not, I just was answering to a specific example.


andreww wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Not to mention Paladins get to dwarf that Deflection score with their Charisma bonus.

Smite is great but it is single target. High level combats generally need to have lots of enemies to be any sort of threat to a well prepared high level group.

Typically the more enemies you throw at the party, the less optimal their statistics will be, which balances out.

The Exchange

andreww wrote:
...the problem is that large numbers of enemies use natural attacks which are all made at the same attack bonus. If your game has a lot of class level based NPC's then AC will have more value than if you fight a lot of bestiary opponents.

Jeez, all that and the loot on NPCs tends to be better too. But you're right; it's a side to the change PF made in natural attack routines that hadn't occurred to me.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a post. Personal insults are not OK here.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Let's look at the general order in which you would obtain/upgrade your defensive gear in order to get the highest AC for lowest cost:

Your order's a little off, or perhaps I look at it differently.

Each of the following is a +1 increment to AC along with cost:

1000 +1 armor
1000 +1 shield
2000 +1 ring of protection
2000 +1 amulet of natural armor
3000* +2 armor
3000* +2 shield
4000* belt of incredible dexterity +2
5000 +1 jingasa of the fortunate soldier
5000 +1 dusty rose prism ioun stone
5000* +3 armor
5000* +3 shield
6000* +2 ring of protection
6000* +2 amulet of natural armor
7000* +4 armor
7000* +4 shield
9000* +5 armor
9000* +5 shield
10000* +3 ring of protection
10000* +3 amulet of natural armor
12000* belt of incredible dexterity +4
14000* +4 ring of protection
14000* +4 amulet of natural armor
18000* +5 ring of protection
18000* +5 amulet of natural armor
20000* belt of incredible dexterity +6
55000 manual of quickness of action +2
55000* manual of quickness of action +4

* =difference between the cost of this item, and the same item with a bonus one lower. eg the cost of +2 armor minus the cost of +1 armor.

This list does not account for the increased price of belts that provide a bonus to Dex and one or more other stats, nor other items that provide the same kind of bonus at a higher cost.

Still, you can potentially end up with 10 (base) +5 (armor enhance) +5 (shield enhance) +5 (deflection) +5 (natural) +3 (dex enhance) +1 (insight) +1 (luck) + everything else including your character's base dex, armor and shield's base bonus, size, and everything else I fail to mention. Let's say the everything else is 10 for a mithral breastplate, buckler, 16 Dex without enhancement, and medium size. 10 + 10 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 45 so your average combat cr20 needs a 16 to hit you. Without the shield it's 39 so they still need a 10 on their highest attack.


Armor class and defense in general is not useless. One issue I see a lot is a DM issue. When one person in a group has high armor they tend to ignore them and go after the targets easier to hit. While strategically this makes sense anyone doing this is refusing to let that player shine.

For this reason I tend to attack the characters know to have high AC more often (around twice as much). The amount of attack that the high ac player in my current game is preventing via strait AC certainly makes the whole group feel that AC is not useless.

In general I aim for my bad guys to hit a player at AC 14+level 50% of the time. This means that having around 19+level will get you hit half as much. This makes AC quite useful if you ask me.


I find this entire thread kind of boggling in its assumption that all of the AC-increasing items will be available to PCs. I don't think I've ever seen a PC in actual play with a standing AC of higher than 25. My own level 10 ranger is currently the primary melee type in our group, and he's sitting at 23.

Grand Lodge

Rylar- So your saying you Disregard intelligence of the creture/npc? Your strat is great for the first 8 levels but if Having the highest AC means you auto get threat seems way too easy.

If the Wizard opens up a blast and out-damages the High AC low Damage fighter the monster should be pretty pissed off at the wizard and just ignore AC fatty.
Smarter enemies tend to target lighter armored people as well. The Front-liner has to be more crafty then just stack AC to get targets to focus him and stay off his party.
I'm actually against DMs who Hand players aggro of creatures based on their Class choice. If they step between the party and the creature by all means but if the Monster has the pick of attacks typically they will target the weaker looking targets. Unless you do something to make it target you like piss it off with good damage.


RavingDork: Thank you for your post. I thought you might chime in eventually. I couldn't agree more.


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Rylar- So your saying you Disregard intelligence of the creture/npc? Your strat is great for the first 8 levels but if Having the highest AC means you auto get threat seems way too easy.

If the Wizard opens up a blast and out-damages the High AC low Damage fighter the monster should be pretty pissed off at the wizard and just ignore AC fatty.
Smarter enemies tend to target lighter armored people as well. The Front-liner has to be more crafty then just stack AC to get targets to focus him and stay off his party.
I'm actually against DMs who Hand players aggro of creatures based on their Class choice. If they step between the party and the creature by all means but if the Monster has the pick of attacks typically they will target the weaker looking targets. Unless you do something to make it target you like piss it off with good damage.

I mostly agree with this, which is why I personally feel that high AC (and high defenses in general), while potentially useful, needs to be considered in the context of what your character's role is.

If you're sacrificing most of your offensive output for your defensive capability and have nothing else to offer, it's a poor choice even if you can get nigh-unhittable - your enemies will simply ignore you.

Shadow Lodge

An important point of High defense is strategy. If you aren't in the right place and doing the right things the enemy can kill your allies and then deal with the "tin can". Being Enlarged, combat reflexes, tripping, and things like bodygaurd and standstill can go along way to taking advantage of high AC.

Scarab Sages

Tinalles wrote:
I find this entire thread kind of boggling in its assumption that all of the AC-increasing items will be available to PCs. I don't think I've ever seen a PC in actual play with a standing AC of higher than 25. My own level 10 ranger is currently the primary melee type in our group, and he's sitting at 23.

I've had multiple characters with standing AC's > 25 by 5th level. When playing a defensive build, I aim for a standing AC of at least level +20 at low level and level +30 at high level.

My magus, an offensive focused character, has a standing AC of 26 (21 touch) at 7th level. As scenario's progress and spells are expended, that number increases to the mid 30's.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Artanthos wrote:
Tinalles wrote:
I find this entire thread kind of boggling in its assumption that all of the AC-increasing items will be available to PCs. I don't think I've ever seen a PC in actual play with a standing AC of higher than 25. My own level 10 ranger is currently the primary melee type in our group, and he's sitting at 23.
I've had multiple characters with standing AC's > 25 by 5th level. When playing a defensive build, I aim for a standing AC of at least level +20 at low level and level +30 at high level.

Things that are reasonable for a level 5 character:

+9 -- Full Plate
+1 -- Dex
+2 -- Hv Shield
+1 -- Amror Enhance
+1 -- Shield Enhance
+1 -- Ring of Protection
+1 -- Natural Armor

AC 26

About 7.5k worth of equipement from 10.5k average wealth (IMO I would get a +1 weapon and some other items before both the ring and neckless.) This does not take in to account any number of traits/feats/class features that one could snag.

The big swing is the shield. At this level it is +3 AC vs using both hands for weapons.


master_marshmallow wrote:
andreww wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Not to mention Paladins get to dwarf that Deflection score with their Charisma bonus.

Smite is great but it is single target. High level combats generally need to have lots of enemies to be any sort of threat to a well prepared high level group.
Typically the more enemies you throw at the party, the less optimal their statistics will be, which balances out.

Not exactly.

DR and AC are better against multiple weak attacks. One big monster could hit easily the AC 30 and the AC 20, but multiple monster could hit the AC 20 and not the 30, the difference in damage could be big.

The Exchange

AC is useful. The GM should design a wide variety of encounters which let you show off how awesome you are and to show your weaknesses.

Not every encounter is meant for you to shine. In those situations carry a ranged weapon, displacement, energy resistances, etc.

Scarab Sages

Andrew Harasty wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Tinalles wrote:
I find this entire thread kind of boggling in its assumption that all of the AC-increasing items will be available to PCs. I don't think I've ever seen a PC in actual play with a standing AC of higher than 25. My own level 10 ranger is currently the primary melee type in our group, and he's sitting at 23.
I've had multiple characters with standing AC's > 25 by 5th level. When playing a defensive build, I aim for a standing AC of at least level +20 at low level and level +30 at high level.

Things that are reasonable for a level 5 character:

+9 -- Full Plate
+1 -- Dex
+2 -- Hv Shield
+1 -- Amror Enhance
+1 -- Shield Enhance
+1 -- Ring of Protection
+1 -- Natural Armor

AC 26

About 7.5k worth of equipement from 10.5k average wealth (IMO I would get a +1 weapon and some other items before both the ring and neckless.) This does not take in to account any number of traits/feats/class features that one could snag.

The big swing is the shield. At this level it is +3 AC vs using both hands for weapons.

With a defensive fighter, I take a slightly different path at 5th level.

Link

She's not doing much damage at low level. TWF develops more slowly. She does, however, have a +1 weapon to hit you with.


Avenger wrote:
What do you do when you play a character focused on AC, and the DM ramps up the game by throwing monsters that hit you 50% of the time? (95% of the time other party members)

What do you do when you focus your defenses on miss chances and the opponent is given arrows of seeking?

The Exchange

Cry a little. Why do you ask? - oop, never mind, that was rhetorical. ;)

Scarab Sages

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RDM42 wrote:
Avenger wrote:
What do you do when you play a character focused on AC, and the DM ramps up the game by throwing monsters that hit you 50% of the time? (95% of the time other party members)

What do you do when you focus your defenses on miss chances and the opponent is given arrows of seeking?

The real question you are asking is, what do I do when the GM decides every single opponent negates my character.

I'm not worried about a 1-off occurrence. When the GM decides all the NPC's use the same trick, that is when I find a new game.


Andrew Harasty wrote:

Things that are reasonable for a level 5 character:

+9 -- Full Plate
+1 -- Dex
+2 -- Hv Shield
+1 -- Amror Enhance
+1 -- Shield Enhance
+1 -- Ring of Protection
+1 -- Natural Armor

AC 26

About 7.5k worth of equipement from 10.5k average wealth (IMO I would get a +1 weapon and some other items before both the ring and neckless.) This does not take in to account any number of traits/feats/class features that one could snag.

The big swing is the shield. At this level it is +3 AC vs using both hands for weapons.

That's great if you have heavy armor proficiency, can use a shield, and can afford (or find in loot) the enhanced armor/shield.

My PC, however, is a ranger. No heavy armor proficiency, and TWF means no shield. He's got the ring and amulet, plus a dusty rose ioun stone, but only a +1 breastplate. I just worked out that an average CR 8 melee-type monster with a +15 attack has about a 75% chance of landing a hit on him. And of course that's two levels below an "average" encouter for a level 10 group.

So, to return this to the topic at hand: AC can be very useful. But if you want it to STAY useful past mid levels, you have to invest heavily in it from the very beginning -- something I failed to do, because this was the first melee type PC I'd played.


I'm now inspired to see just how high I can get a level 20 character's AC. Ignoring WBL, I really wonder just how high it could get.

I'll test this out using self buffs only, if any, no wands or scrolls.

Be back in about an hour.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a few more posts. Knock it off.


I'm currently playing Curse of the Crimson Throne at level 12 with my AC normally at 33. Seems to be doing okay. I don't get hit very often and I take only a few hits from full attacks. Meanwhile the barbarian with 22 AC is getting murdered, mostly because of full attacks. I think if your AC is high enough to avoid the lower attack bonuses from full attacks you're good.


Here he is.

20 point buy
Halfling Fighter 20

+5 Mithral Full Plate = 14
+5 Heavy Shield = 7
+5 Ring of Protection = 5
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor = 5
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone = 1
Dexterity = 36 (20 base / +1 per 4 levels / +5 Manual of Dexterity / +6 belt of dexterity) = 12 (only 7 allowed because of armor)
Dodge = 1
Shield Focus = 1
Greater Shield Focus = 1
Combat Expertise = 6
Size = 1

Total = 59

I could have easily missed some things. But even the mighty Tarrasque has to roll a 20 to hit this AC =)


I realized I could do better.

Undine Monk 20

+8 Bracers of Armor = +8
+5 Ring of Protection = +5
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor=1 = +5
34 Dexterity = +12
34 Wisdom = +12
Monk AC bonus = +5
Combat Expertise = +6
Snapping Turtle Styles = +2
Ioun Stone = +1
Dodge = +1
Ki Dodge = +4

Wow... 71 AC

Wonder how much higher this could be pushed with Mythic? Let's see.

Mythic Dodge = +1 (extra +10 available for 1 attack per round)
Mythic Combat Expertise = +2
Armored Might = +4
+10 Wisdom = +5
Enhanced Ability (Wisdom) = +1
Enhanced Ability (Dexterity) = +1

85 AC... (95 against one attack per round)

Dang, I should've played a monk instead of a Cavalier for our WotR game.


How are you getting a 34 dex and wisdom?

You might have better luck with a monk1/druid19 wearing wild full plate while wildshaped into an air elemental and arguably getting the full benefit of their dex and wis as they don't count as wearing the armour while wildshaped. Its a bit skeevy on the rules side of things.

Alternatively a lore or primal oracle dip into sorcerer combined with shapechange and seamantle can easily reach the mid 60's.


Sindalla wrote:

Here he is.

20 point buy
Halfling Fighter 20

+5 Mithral Full Plate = 14
+5 Heavy Shield = 7
+5 Ring of Protection = 5
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor = 5
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone = 1
Dexterity = 36 (20 base / +1 per 4 levels / +5 Manual of Dexterity / +6 belt of dexterity) = 12 (only 7 allowed because of armor)
Dodge = 1
Shield Focus = 1
Greater Shield Focus = 1
Combat Expertise = 6
Size = 1

Total = 59

I could have easily missed some things. But even the mighty Tarrasque has to roll a 20 to hit this AC =)

Try a mithral celestial full plate plus defendr of the society.


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Tinalles wrote:
I find this entire thread kind of boggling in its assumption that all of the AC-increasing items will be available to PCs. I don't think I've ever seen a PC in actual play with a standing AC of higher than 25. My own level 10 ranger is currently the primary melee type in our group, and he's sitting at 23.

You must never see people play heavy armor. Full plate and a tower shield nets you 23 by itself, with no other feats or abilities and no Dex bonus. You can have this before you hit 2nd level, and without any magic at all.

Sure, if heavy armor isn't available to your characters, I can see the difficulty. : P


blahpers wrote:
You must never see people play heavy armor. Full plate and a tower shield nets you 23 by itself, with no other feats or abilities and no Dex bonus.

I was wondering the same thing. AC 25 is fairly low by level 6 or 7 (assuming a character is built for defense.)


Tinalles wrote:

That's great if you have heavy armor proficiency, can use a shield, and can afford (or find in loot) the enhanced armor/shield.

My PC, however, is a ranger. No heavy armor proficiency, and TWF means no shield. He's got the ring and amulet, plus a dusty rose ioun stone, but only a +1 breastplate. I just worked out that an average CR 8 melee-type monster with a +15 attack has about a 75% chance of landing a hit on him. And of course that's two levels below an "average" encouter for a level 10 group.

So, to return this to the topic at hand: AC can be very useful. But if you want it to STAY useful past mid levels, you have to invest heavily in it from the very beginning -- something I failed to do, because this was the first melee type PC I'd played.

Your post here illustrates the ultimate point of the usefulness of a high AC: what trade-offs you have to make in order to achieve it. Clearly, as a ranger, trying for high AC would be a bad idea because of all the extra effort it would take for you to get it. For other classes however, high AC is more practical because they don't have to give up a whole lot to get there.


Xexyz wrote:
Tinalles wrote:

That's great if you have heavy armor proficiency, can use a shield, and can afford (or find in loot) the enhanced armor/shield.

My PC, however, is a ranger. No heavy armor proficiency, and TWF means no shield. He's got the ring and amulet, plus a dusty rose ioun stone, but only a +1 breastplate. I just worked out that an average CR 8 melee-type monster with a +15 attack has about a 75% chance of landing a hit on him. And of course that's two levels below an "average" encouter for a level 10 group.

So, to return this to the topic at hand: AC can be very useful. But if you want it to STAY useful past mid levels, you have to invest heavily in it from the very beginning -- something I failed to do, because this was the first melee type PC I'd played.

Your post here illustrates the ultimate point of the usefulness of a high AC: what trade-offs you have to make in order to achieve it. Clearly, as a ranger, trying for high AC would be a bad idea because of all the extra effort it would take for you to get it. For other classes however, high AC is more practical because they don't have to give up a whole lot to get there.

This works nicely for a TWF build wanting more AC.


Tormsskull wrote:
blahpers wrote:
You must never see people play heavy armor. Full plate and a tower shield nets you 23 by itself, with no other feats or abilities and no Dex bonus.
I was wondering the same thing. AC 25 is fairly low by level 6 or 7 (assuming a character is built for defense.)

It is perhaps not as optimized as it could be, but I would not call it low.


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Honestly this is funny because the reason why people complained about the old Crane Wing was BECAUSE of high AC characters....

Oh, and if you want a stupid high AC without even having to resort to items you can go:

Enlightened Paladin 4/Monk (if you wana go defensive say Flowing Monk) 3/Chevalier 3/ Champion of the Irori 10. If you want to cut a level of CoI for Lunar Oracle 1 your AC becomes even more rediculous.


blahpers wrote:
Tinalles wrote:
I find this entire thread kind of boggling in its assumption that all of the AC-increasing items will be available to PCs. I don't think I've ever seen a PC in actual play with a standing AC of higher than 25. My own level 10 ranger is currently the primary melee type in our group, and he's sitting at 23.
You must never see people play heavy armor

Well, yeah. The last time I actually saw a PC in heavy armor, it was ... uh, 2007. And 3.5. At least I THINK that guy had heavy armor. He sat on the other side of the table, and I never saw his character sheet.


hmm, this conversation makes me wonder about the system in general. SO much cheesiness. I just cant decide if it is the rules, or the people using them.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If I can make an armorless wizard with competitive AC, then a ranger can do it JUST FINE.


Tinalles wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Tinalles wrote:
I find this entire thread kind of boggling in its assumption that all of the AC-increasing items will be available to PCs. I don't think I've ever seen a PC in actual play with a standing AC of higher than 25. My own level 10 ranger is currently the primary melee type in our group, and he's sitting at 23.
You must never see people play heavy armor
Well, yeah. The last time I actually saw a PC in heavy armor, it was ... uh, 2007. And 3.5. At least I THINK that guy had heavy armor. He sat on the other side of the table, and I never saw his character sheet.

I'm playing a summoner in heavy armor for PFS. Fun stuff.


Reitif wrote:
hmm, this conversation makes me wonder about the system in general. SO much cheesiness. I just cant decide if it is the rules, or the people using them.

How so?


IMHO, AC is effective to a certain point then becomes useless. Yes you may have a 42 AC, but the BBEG has a +43 to hit. At a certain point in the game your AC is not important against the BBEG, but is essential to protect yourself from his minions that nickel and dime you to death. Cause its not always the boss you need to worry about.


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Dwarfakin wrote:
IMHO, AC is effective to a certain point then becomes useless. Yes you may have a 42 AC, but the BBEG has a +43 to hit. At a certain point in the game your AC is not important against the BBEG, but is essential to protect yourself from his minions that nickel and dime you to death. Cause its not always the boss you need to worry about.

What bbeg has a +43 to hit without using true strike?


AC is not useless, but its role changes as the levels go up. At low levels, AC prevents damage, at higher levels, it merely mitigates it. Sure, the enemy will likely land its first attack every time, but what about its iterative attacks? What about secondary natural weapons?

It's unlikely that AC will stop an enemy from hitting you, but it's still pretty effective at stopping the enemy from hitting you twice. Besides, a good AC synergizes really well with debuffing tactics.

Grand Lodge

Quote:
What bbeg has a +43 to hit without using true strike?

Demon Lord, Xoveron @+44

Demon Lord Shax @ +46
Demon Lord X @ mostly over +40

There are plenty actually...But they are super high level or mythic encounters. They do exist tho.

There are also several CR 18's with around +34 to hit.


Armor class is great for mitigating iteratives and secondary natural attacks. but generally a miss chance and damage reduction are more important for mitigating attack damage. the more important defense is saving throws, because failed saving throws can actually take you out of the fight in one turn, especially fortitude and will and well, touch AC is the hardest defense to boost outside of a few niche builds. mostly because the standard way to boost AC involves slapping on Lotsa Metal because few people want to spend their limited stat points on dexterity.


Jingasa of the fortunate soldier: +1 luck bonus to AC.

Liberty's Edge

Grizzly the Archer wrote:
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier: +1 luck bonus to AC.

And it lets you negate one critical hit per day. For 5k it's a steal, and I have no idea why every party with Craft Wondrous Item doesn't hand them out like candy.

Scarab Sages

Tinalles wrote:
My PC, however, is a ranger. No heavy armor proficiency, and TWF means no shield. He's got the ring and amulet, plus a dusty rose ioun stone, but only a +1 breastplate. I just worked out that an average CR 8 melee-type monster with a +15 attack has about a 75% chance of landing a hit on him. And of course that's two levels below an "average" encouter for a level 10 group.

Rangers are the only class that can access Shield Master at 6th level.

The 5th level fighter I posted was TWF with a light shield and an agile breastplate. She had a 26 AC. Unlike the a ranger, she won't be able to pick up Shield Master until 11th level.

Scarab Sages

Dwarfakin wrote:
IMHO, AC is effective to a certain point then becomes useless. Yes you may have a 42 AC, but the BBEG has a +43 to hit. At a certain point in the game your AC is not important against the BBEG, but is essential to protect yourself from his minions that nickel and dime you to death. Cause its not always the boss you need to worry about.

By that point, I will have a 55+ AC. I can live with a demon lord missing 60% of the time with his primary attack.

As an aside: most demon lords have true seeing. Magic effects granting concealment won't work.

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