Character planning advice, no spoilers please.


Wrath of the Righteous

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it is true Sarenrae USED to be more about smiting now, asking questions later then she smote the s~~% out of Gormuz and opened up a WHOLE different can o' worms (or in this case Spawn of Rovagug) since then she's been trying to tone down that whole aspect of her religion
its all in Mythic Realms, i highly recommend it!
especially for more insight into the whole Sarenrae vs Rovagug thing (and Zon-Kuthon and the star towers)


magnuskn wrote:
Lincoln Cross wrote:

I read this as directly opposing the guidelines for Paladins of Sarenrae.

• I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the Rough
Beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying.
If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find
allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths
lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.

First off, demons are not spawn of Rovagug, so you bolding that section is meaningless to this debate.

Lincoln Cross wrote:

• I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my

actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will
redeem them by the sword.

Attempting to give a demon a chance at redemption is inherently a flawed action because you are forgetting what a demon is. You are giving them credits you would give an evil mortal being. Demons (and devils and daemons) are made of evil. The odd one...

That is an inherently wrong interpretation of the bolded text. Saranrae teaches that everyone has a shot at redemption, but is ruthless in stamping out those who refuse to be redeemed. You saying that demons can't be redeemed and should not be given the chance to redeem themselves is anathema to her faith.

Ok, I did not know that the spawn of the rough beast were not demons.

As for the second part I respectfully disagree with your interpretation.

captain yesterday wrote:

it is true Sarenrae USED to be more about smiting now, asking questions later then she smote the s&~! out of Gormuz and opened up a WHOLE different can o' worms (or in this case Spawn of Rovagug) since then she's been trying to tone down that whole aspect of her religion

its all in Mythic Realms, i highly recommend it!
especially for more insight into the whole Sarenrae vs Rovagug thing (and Zon-Kuthon and the star towers)

That is interesting! I will read up on that! Even so, I believe she still understands when the smiting must be done!

Liberty's Edge

Lincoln Cross wrote:
Ok, I did not know that the spawn of the rough beast were not demons.

Actually...Rovagug is an ascended Qlippoth. They and Demons hate each other, despite both being CE.

Lincoln Cross wrote:
As for the second part I respectfully disagree with your interpretation.

Well, in a rules sense, he's objectively correct. Theoretically, Angels can fall and Demons can rise, according to the rules. It's vanishingly and ridiculously rare...but just barely possible.

Lincoln Cross wrote:
That is interesting! I will read up on that! Even so, I believe she still understands when the smiting must be done!

Oh, definitely. Some people refuse redemption even when offered it...and them you sometimes need to put down.


The vanishingly and ridiculously rare part is what I'm saying. Just because the situation may arise does not invalidate everything else.

Also, does someone or some thing that has committed the atrocities necessary to obtain the alignment of EVIL even deserve redemption? I know in a game sense that is Sarenrae's choice to make but it should be considered as well.


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So you, Paladin of Saranrae, meet up with a demon - a demon who truly wants redemption. But you know better - demons are to be killed, not redeemed. So you kill the demon. What does that make you?

Y'ask me it makes you a fallen Paladin - or well on the way to one.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lincoln Cross wrote:
The vanishingly and ridiculously rare part is what I'm saying. Just because the situation may arise does not invalidate everything else.

Nobody is saying that you need to turn into Aang everytime you fight a demon. However, the Oath against Fiends leaves no wiggle room for interpretations and thus seems strongly opposed to Saranrae's teachings. That she is listed as a favorable deity for this oath is more than somewhat baffling to me and seems like an error (which the writers are known to commit from time to time).

Lincoln Cross wrote:
Also, does someone or some thing that has committed the atrocities necessary to obtain the alignment of EVIL even deserve redemption? I know in a game sense that is Sarenrae's choice to make but it should be considered as well.

Eh, that alone is a statement which would make me as a GM very leery about allowing you to play a Paladin of Saranrae. Her deal is redemption of evil-doers. And swift justice for those who refuse to be redeemed.

Liberty's Edge

Lincoln Cross wrote:
The vanishingly and ridiculously rare part is what I'm saying. Just because the situation may arise does not invalidate everything else.

This is fair. And why I'd say the oath is reasonable IC. I still think it's a bad idea OOC.

Lincoln Cross wrote:
Also, does someone or some thing that has committed the atrocities necessary to obtain the alignment of EVIL even deserve redemption? I know in a game sense that is Sarenrae's choice to make but it should be considered as well.

No it's not just up to Sarenrae she unambiguously says "Yes, they do." She's a firm believer that anyone and everyone deserves redemption if they're willing to seek it. Per her ideology, there is no crime past forgiveness except refusing to seek redemption.

If you're not thinking literally anyone can be redeemed...you should be aiming to be a Paladin of a different deity.

Grand Lodge

Or you encounter an evil outsider with whom you must enter into a temporary alliance so as to further your higher goals, after they're just going to leave. So, do you violate your oath that you Shall Not Suffer A Fiend to Live, or do you strike the evil outsider down, and potentially crew over your party. In one, you fall. Bam, violation of your oath. And I don't know how other table's handle it, but I don't let my paladins atone away deliberate and knowing violations of their alignment/oaths. Or, knowing that this will be a problem, is playing this archetype on top of the other two, more important then then trying to make future encounters run smoothly, and the game work better for the other players and GM alike?

See, this is where I think most of us who are advising against the Oath are seeing this from. You don't seem (and this is only seem, I have no idea about your table dynamics) to care that taking this, knowingly so, will cause disproportionate problems for most of a book for the other players and for the GM running the game.

Also, despite not wanting to take the advise of dropping Oath Against Fiends, you originally were asking for opinions (with no spoilers) from people who were running the campaign for the viability of another archetype.

Lincoln Cross wrote:
Assuming he does allow it, my question is, in this setting is it worth it?

So, please, don't use the explanation that "your character wouldn't know not to take Oath Against Fiends" when your original post was a request for meta-game build advise.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sprain Ogre wrote:
So, please, don't use the explanation that "your character wouldn't know not to take Oath Against Fiends" when your original post was a request for meta-game build advise.

Thanks for saying this. That question had been rattling around in my head for awhile.


Seannoss wrote:
Sprain Ogre wrote:
So, please, don't use the explanation that "your character wouldn't know not to take Oath Against Fiends" when your original post was a request for meta-game build advise.
Thanks for saying this. That question had been rattling around in my head for awhile.

Seconded


Have I not already said that my question was about WotHL? I did not ask the question about oaths. If we must argue that I've been hypocritical to a degree then we should also accept that I did not ask about oaths.

You are right, I did not want to make a choice to abandon spells if my group would desperately need them. I've already said I don't agree with the opinion that this oath torpedoes or destroys the campaign. I have been honest and polite about my disagreement. I believe this could make my gaming experience more difficult but also interesting.

I won't resort to being rude as I feel that is unnecessary. I do appreciate the opinions and efforts here however. We can cordially disagree.

Grand Lodge

Going to give Character advice.

Since your going paladin I am sure you will be taking Fleet Charge as your Featured attack. And if you are let me throw out there the Trickster Mythic Path. Reason being is Path dabbling. You can cherry pick the best of abilities from every tree. Mythic smite will be Number 1 pick, But it will let you Grab What you really want and not be bound to a set Path. I know it sounds weird but since you are not a "caster" you would profit a lot by taking trickster and Path-dabble your power. I can see only profit when you can Take Mythic Smite(Champion), Mirror Dodge(Trickster), and Smiting Aura(Marshal), Master of Mercy(Marshal), Servant of Balance(hierophant)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Fleet Charge is a Champion ability, not available for the Trickster. Unless you are going to go Dual Path, then taking Trickster along with Champion would be worthwhile. I'd personally think that, if you go the Dual Path route, Champion/Marshall would be much more appropiate for any Paladin.


Interesting advice thank you.

I was really looking towards guardian/champion. I think I will try to make myself the main target to our enemies and soak up all that damage. I'm guessing as a paladin the demons will be looking to go at me a lot.

Marshal is very cool but seems to benefit a large group more. We are only 3 strong. Seems like eating up the damage and keeping it off my friends will be better.

Trickster just doesn't feel right at all to me thougb. How is it possible to get all of those abilities?


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It's not. You can choose one path ability which allows you to take a single path ability from any other path.

Grand Lodge

Quote:


It's not. You can choose one path ability which allows you to take a single path ability from any other path.

That is exactly How. Its the Path ability of the Trickster called Path Dabbling. You can take it as tier 1-10 and not even touch a trickster path ability other then Path Dabbling. You loose 1 HP per tier...10 HP in all to get ANY mythic path ability. And your Cap stone is Supreme trickster which Allows you to attack non-mythic foes as if they where flat footed. Its not the best Capstone ability but the ability to cherry pick abilities will make for a stronger character then picking 1 path and sticking to it.

Quote:
Fleet Charge is a Champion ability, not available for the Trickster.

I Beg to differ and here is a direct link that states otherwise

Mythic Trickster

Notice Trickster Feature 2 saying Fleet Charge(ex). Fleet charge is a Trickster AND Champion Feature.

Also if you want to balance Damage with Defense I would look into Mythic Vital strike ASAP as a feat. Means you will take vital strike Immediately after qualifying for it and taking Mythic Vital strike as soon as you get your first mythic Feat.

Tier 1 mythic should look like this:

Feature- Fleet Charge
Path ability- Path Dabbling- Mythic Smite
Mythic Feat- Mythic Vital strike

Your damage output will just be ridiculous and you will have enough smites for every fight of the day.

You can then focus a few tiers on defense and have your Offense covered for most the campaign.

I also suggest Taking a Long sword as your focused weapon for this campaign. That's about a "Spoiler" as I will get.


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Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:


That is exactly How. Its the Path ability of the Trickster called Path Dabbling. You can take it as tier 1-10 and not even touch a trickster path ability other then Path Dabbling. You loose 1 HP per tier...10 HP in all to get ANY mythic path ability. And your Cap stone is Supreme trickster which Allows you to attack non-mythic foes as if they where flat footed. Its not the best Capstone ability but the ability to cherry pick abilities will make for a stronger character then picking 1 path and sticking to it.

You can only take a path ability once, unless it says otherwise, just like feats.

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:


I Beg to differ and here is a direct link that states otherwise

Mythic Trickster

Notice Trickster Feature 2 saying Fleet Charge(ex). Fleet charge is a Trickster AND Champion Feature.

My bad, I mentally changed Fleet Charge (Trickster class ability) to Fleet Warrior (Champion path ability).

Liberty's Edge

In fairness, if you Dual Path Trickster and something else, and then use Path Dabbling, you can have one power from a third Path and as many as you like from the first two...so you could Dual Path Trickster/Marshal and get all of the things he listed except for one of Mythic Smite and Servant of Balance.

That's as much cherry picking as you can arrange though, I'm pretty sure.

Grand Lodge

There is no limit on the amount of paths you can dabble.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Do you mean other than the line 'Unless otherwise noted, each ability can only be selected once?"

Grand Lodge

Where is that line at? What page?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

At the start of each path, under Path Ability


I was really thinking about legendary item. The idea of a really amazing suit of mithril full plate that could grow with my character really intrigued me. But the limitations to the upgradeable power really destroys that thought.

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