Why is healing so much harder than doing damage?


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RDM42 wrote:
To hear people talk they must seem to think that offensive spells and buffs aren' resources used up but healing is resources used up.

Actually, a lot of the people who say healing is _generally_ an inefficient use of resources also say that using a spell just to do HP damage is also _usually_ an inefficient use of resources. After all, swords and claws have unlimited uses per day, so we should do HP damage with those. A lot of the most powerful offensive/control spells do HP damage as a secondary effect, from Create Pit to Dazing Fireball to Black Tentacles. The real benefit of spells like those are taking enemies out of the fight at the cost of a single standard action.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
On average, monsters will make their saves half the time, so the average damage goes down (to 75% of the numbers). As the opposition advances in level, the saving throws get better against a static target.

This is really not my experience. AS PC's gain levels it becomes easier to land your spells as you have more options which target a wider array of saves and then you start adding things like Persistent into the mix. It is actually fairly easy nowadays to have a set up at about level 10 where you can reliably target any save with an 80%+ chance of success.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Orfamay Quest wrote:

To be fair, this is not a reasonable comparison. You don't typically save against healing.

On average, monsters will make their saves half the time, so the average damage goes down (to 75% of the numbers).

75% of a CL 10 fireball is 26.25 damage, on average. A CL 10 cure serious wounds heals an average of 23.5 damage. Even with a 50% save rate and no difference in investment, the blast spell has better numbers than the cure spell, even before factoring in multiple targets.

Is that the end of the issue? Not necessarily. But that wasn't the point of my post; the point was DrDeth's false assertion that his opponents need to compare totally tricked-out damage dealers against baseline healing in order to make the contrast appear.

And that is simply a lie.

Which is all I was trying to say.


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andreww wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
On average, monsters will make their saves half the time, so the average damage goes down (to 75% of the numbers). As the opposition advances in level, the saving throws get better against a static target.
This is really not my experience. AS PC's gain levels it becomes easier to land your spells as you have more options which target a wider array of saves and then you start adding things like Persistent into the mix. It is actually fairly easy nowadays to have a set up at about level 10 where you can reliably target any save with an 80%+ chance of success.

And now you're doing exactly what DrDeth accused you of doing -- "You take a generic cleric with no special abilities and match them vs a specialized damage dealer with every feat , trait, magic item and ability point dedicated to doing damage."


Orfamay Quest wrote:

And now you're doing exactly what DrDeth accused you of doing -- "You take a generic cleric with no special abilities and match them vs a specialized damage dealer with every feat , trait, magic item and ability point dedicated to doing damage."

Adding Persistent Spell is hardly "very specialised".


Orfamay Quest wrote:
The fact that you're mixing single-target and multi-target spells makes it a difficult comparison as well

Would it be more fair to put channel against a pure damage spell? The math is 1d6 per every odd level for the channel and 1d6 per level for the spell, such as fireball. Mass cure light wounds against a fireball of the same caster level probably isn't a fair comparison either. Also consider than npcs tend to be a higher level than you.

Single target is a little different and harder to measure. The scaling works against cure spells because D8 per spell level + caster level isn't quit as nice as just getting a D6 per level like shocking grasp. Cure spells also fall off the map later on kinda'. Heal is also an entirely different spell than the cure line of spells, and its also a legacy spell if I remember right which is why it doesn't work like a lot of other spells.

Jiggy wrote:
and you should know better than to behave like that.

You know I could've sworn I've seen this same conversation with the same people before. Maybe its just deja vu from me not being on the boards for a few months.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Let me tell you how my Eyes of the Ten Part One table went down.

First fight: One target down on the first action, the next one before the end of the first round. The rest of the targets down in the next round. Minor HP loss.

Second fight: Main enemy down on the first action thanks to a dimension doored eidolon. The rest mopped up by round two. Minor hp loss.

Third fight: I don't even remember the mooks doing any damage. The big hitter was down in two rounds, the main enemy baleful polymorphed before it got a turn after appearing.

Fourth fight: I think we took damage here, but the archer paladin shot down the main enemy before the big trouble happened. The crowd control spell thrown at us didn't effect us.

Fifth fight: I think the save or die was the only scary part, and a shirt reroll fixed that.

Some people found Eyes of the Ten difficult. My party did not, as we had no healer and massive offense.


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Jiggy wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

To be fair, this is not a reasonable comparison. You don't typically save against healing.

On average, monsters will make their saves half the time, so the average damage goes down (to 75% of the numbers).

75% of a CL 10 fireball is 26.25 damage, on average. A CL 10 cure serious wounds heals an average of 23.5 damage. Even with a 50% save rate and no difference in investment, the blast spell has better numbers than the cure spell, even before factoring in multiple targets.

But in order to establish that point, you needed to move from the lowest level version of fireball to the highest effective level (given the die caps).

Quote:

But that wasn't the point of my post; the point was DrDeth's false assertion that his opponents need to compare totally tricked-out damage dealers against baseline healing in order to make the contrast appear.

And that is simply a lie.

Which is all I was trying to say.

Perhaps, but his broader point is that to do a fair comparison is a lot more difficult than most people can or are willing to do, and that when you do a fairer comparison, things get tricky and much more nuanced.

If you look at third level damage spells, a fireball will do about 14 points of damage across a wide area (taking saving throws into account, but not energy resistance). If you look at third level area-effect healing, a channel energy from an L5 cleric will heal about 10.5 points of damage. Going up two more levels adds two more dice (effectively 1 1/2 dice after saves) of damage done, but one more die of damage healed, so it actually stays very close until the point where the fireball spell hits its dice cap. The effective difference is about a hit point per target per level.


TriOmegaZero wrote:


Some people found Eyes of the Ten difficult. My party did not, as we had no healer and massive offense.

I think "massive offense" needs to be elaborated on to illustrate the point better.

What did the group consist of?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Archer Paladin
Archer Ranger
Summoner
Summoner
Inquisitor
Holy Vindicator

This is not the first time I have watched a party walk into a scenario without a healer and never be inconvenienced either.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Archer Paladin

Archer Ranger
Summoner
Summoner
Inquisitor
Holy Vindicator

O_O

Quote:
This is not the first time I have watched a party walk into a scenario without a healer and never be inconvenienced either.

Likewise.

Finding a "healer" at the table is incredibly rare in my experience, and yet people level their way up all the time, all around the world.

I'm still waiting for any of the folks who think "healer" is a necessary role to thoughtfully acknowledge and respond to this large pool of data.


Jiggy wrote:

75% of a CL 10 fireball is 26.25 damage, on average. A CL 10 cure serious wounds heals an average of 23.5 damage. Even with a 50% save rate and no difference in investment, the blast spell has better numbers than the cure spell, even before factoring in multiple targets.

Is that the end of the issue? Not necessarily. But that wasn't the point of my post; the point was DrDeth's false assertion that his opponents need to compare totally tricked-out damage dealers against baseline healing in order to make the contrast appear.

And that is simply a lie.

Which is all I was trying to say.

But what if there's a single monster? With fire resistance and a good reflex save and evasion? And the healer is using empowered cure critical wounds and a quickened channel in the same round? And all the people being healed are Fey Foundlings?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Matthew, you realize he was comparing healing a fireball-worth of damage right? So single monsters and their special abilities are irrelevant to that discussion.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Matthew Downie wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

75% of a CL 10 fireball is 26.25 damage, on average. A CL 10 cure serious wounds heals an average of 23.5 damage. Even with a 50% save rate and no difference in investment, the blast spell has better numbers than the cure spell, even before factoring in multiple targets.

Is that the end of the issue? Not necessarily. But that wasn't the point of my post; the point was DrDeth's false assertion that his opponents need to compare totally tricked-out damage dealers against baseline healing in order to make the contrast appear.

And that is simply a lie.

Which is all I was trying to say.

But what if there's a single monster? With fire resistance and a good reflex save and evasion? And the healer is using empowered cure critical wounds and a quickened channel in the same round? And all the people being healed are Fey Foundlings?

Then I pick you up by the ankles and beat DrDeth over the head with my new Downie-Club?


Jiggy wrote:
I'm still waiting for any of the folks who think "healer" is a necessary role to thoughtfully acknowledge and respond to this large pool of data.

Since nobody has said this, you will wait a long time.

DrDeth has said a healer is necessary at this table. For all we know this is true. Maybe his GM keeps throwing more monsters at the group until he thinks they've been dealt a satisfactory amount of damage and then stops.


Matthew Downie wrote:


DrDeth has said a healer is necessary at this table. For all we know this is true. Maybe his GM keeps throwing more monsters at the group until he thinks they've been dealt a satisfactory amount of damage and then stops.

Ah, the "challenge = damage the party has taken" style.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Jiggy wrote:
I'm still waiting for any of the folks who think "healer" is a necessary role to thoughtfully acknowledge and respond to this large pool of data.

It isn't that I look for a "healer" as much as there should be some one who can offer some reasonable spike heal once or twice per day in combat.

Also there should be at least one character that can use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, preferably without a UMD check.

When I was playing my high impact barbarian, I would be more wreackless if I knew I had a Heal or two available. But only slight. I spent many rounds face down in the dirt bleeding if there wasn't any. But I did my job, take the 100+ hp of damage so the wizard did not.

Shadow Lodge

Man, I love my VO's Barbarian but my Life Oracle uses a lot of resources on him...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

When I posted that a level 13 life oracle pulls out great healing, everyone suddenly assumed he uses the Heal spell constantly. He doesn't. Explanation and math below:

Spoiler:

As an Aasimar oracle, he gets half his level added to the effects of one revelation. He chose enhanced cures. His cure spells are at +19 as a result. Fey Foundling gives him extra healing on himself per die used. Life Link means that he transfers a good portion of damage taken by the party to himself (5 per person every round).

5 revelations including Soothsayer's Raiment (misfortune plus 4 life oracle revelations). Phylactery of Positive Channeling gives an extra 2d6 to channels.

In a given round he will use a channel, heal himself with a move action (energy body), and maybe use a quickened cure (only 2/day of that one).

9d6+18+2d8+19+4+1d6+13+2 to himself is an average of 100 points of healing if he's the only one who needs a heal and if he uses a swift cure moderate wounds (unlikely but possible).

A single mass cure light wounds and a move action channel will heal the 6 person party for 1d8+19+9d6 each (plus an additional 20 on himself for fey foundling, which negates some of the life link damage that he would have taken earlier that round). That's a total of 6*55+20= 350 points of healing spread out over the party.

I am not kidding when I say that he keeps up with the monsters' damage output.

(And yes, if he really really needs to do massive single target healing on someone other than himself, he will use Heal)

He also has some other bonus that I really can't remember what right now, so I just went with the bonuses that I remember him having. His actual healing is higher.


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Assimar life oracle is an exception rather than the rule though. Requires a particular class, choice within the class that excludes all the others(mystery is a pretty big choice), a choice within that choice that hijacks another classes main class feature, a particular race, and to spend all of your favored class bonuses on one particular revelation in that mystery. Then it can be boosted by 2 specific magic items.

Meanwhile, the cleric stares at it with tears in his eyes, 'but why?" he says in an adorable high pitched whine.

Spoiler:
Example comparisons for 10th level(channel vs. fireball):
Avarage channel is 5D6(3.5 x 5 = 17.5) Avarage assimar life oracle is 10D6(35) Average life oracle assimar channeling with phylactery at 10 is 12D6(3.5 x 12 = 42).

Average damage of not minmaxed fireball is 10D6(average 35), average damage of an orc blooded sorcerer is 10D6+10(45), orc orc-blooded 10D6+20(55), orc orc/draconic-wild blooded is 10D6+30(65),

and you still can't get rid of any riders like dazzled(flaring), burning(burning), entangled(elemental-rime), or dazed(Dazing) with channel if for some reason the caster puts one of those on there.

Btw, I must not be everyone. Can I meet this guy? I don't think I've met everyone! I know I've never met nobody, and I may have met somebody, but never everybody!


Jiggy wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:

Archer Paladin

Archer Ranger
Summoner
Summoner
Inquisitor
Holy Vindicator

O_O

Quote:
This is not the first time I have watched a party walk into a scenario without a healer and never be inconvenienced either.

Likewise.

Finding a "healer" at the table is incredibly rare in my experience, and yet people level their way up all the time, all around the world.

I'm still waiting for any of the folks who think "healer" is a necessary role to thoughtfully acknowledge and respond to this large pool of data.

I think "healer" isn't so much a role by itself, but rather a slice of one of the casting classes. Of the core classes, I would say clerics, druids, paladins, and bards are the best at healing, but none of these classes are a "healer". Even a cleric with the healing domain, two channel feats and a decent charisma is only 25% a "healer", and can be a summoner, a melee fighter, a blaster, buffer, debuffer, etc. etc.

My group usually has a very different tactical experience then TOZ seems to have. We have three characters and the GM, and play mostly using the core rules with a little APG thrown in. We also tend to favor characters who are optimized for more general use then combat, and since we do all rolling in the open, we try to minimize the save-or-suck/die stuff on both sides of the screen. Perhaps the biggest factor is that myself and the other GM tend to roll crazy extremes, and it is hard to imagine a three person party being able to stay alive long enough to kill the monster after it dealt them a few critical hits in a row.

I am currently playing a 10th level cleric of Desna (luck and travel). I have extra channel and augment summons. I find that summoning a couple of celestial wolverines, hitting the fighter with a touch of luck, and channeling energy to keep everyone away from death to be very effective. I consider my character a very good "healer" although I only spend about 20% of my actions healing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The table was Roll20 and all rolls were in the open btw.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
The table was Roll20 and all rolls were in the open btw.

Roll20?

vvv Wow, that looks really cool! Time to call my friend who moved away and get him back in the game... vvv

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Roll20


andreww wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

And now you're doing exactly what DrDeth accused you of doing -- "You take a generic cleric with no special abilities and match them vs a specialized damage dealer with every feat , trait, magic item and ability point dedicated to doing damage."

Adding Persistent Spell is hardly "very specialised".

Power Attack is very specialized.


RDM42 wrote:
To hear people talk they must seem to think that offensive spells and buffs aren' resources used up but healing is resources used up.

You have a quote for that?


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Next, when it's compared, it's always a false comparison . You take a generic cleric with no special abilities and match them vs a specialized damage dealer with every feat , trait, magic item and ability point dedicated to doing damage.

It's okay to disagree with a conclusion; it's not okay to lie about how people got to their different conclusion.

A cure serious wounds, cast at the level you get it (CL 5th), with no special investment, heals 3d8+5, averaging 18.5 HP healed to a single target.

A fireball (same spell level) cast at the same CL (5th) with no special investment, deals 5d6 damage, averaging 17.5 damage to multiple creatures.

To be fair, this is not a reasonable comparison. You don't typically save against healing.

On average, monsters will make their saves half the time, so the average damage goes down (to 75% of the numbers). As the opposition advances in level, the saving throws get better against a static target, so average damage goes down even more. Add energy resistance (which becomes increasingly common) and the comparison gets even harder.

The fact that you're mixing single-target and multi-target spells makes it a difficult comparison as well

Monsters don't make saves half of the time. Even some that are APL+1 or +2 may not do so if the caster focuses on pushing DC's.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

75% of a CL 10 fireball is 26.25 damage, on average. A CL 10 cure serious wounds heals an average of 23.5 damage. Even with a 50% save rate and no difference in investment, the blast spell has better numbers than the cure spell, even before factoring in multiple targets.

Is that the end of the issue? Not necessarily. But that wasn't the point of my post; the point was DrDeth's false assertion that his opponents need to compare totally tricked-out damage dealers against baseline healing in order to make the contrast appear.

And that is simply a lie.

Which is all I was trying to say.

But what if there's a single monster? With fire resistance and a good reflex save and evasion? And the healer is using empowered cure critical wounds and a quickened channel in the same round? And all the people being healed are Fey Foundlings?

If there is a single monster then a single target spell should be used. Hold Monster stops a lot of damage, and if you want ot use it against a cure spell, then the cure spell can't do anything to negate it. The best spells in the game don't do hp damage or cure hp damage. That is why healing and blasting are both considered to be inefficient.

Shadow Lodge

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For the same resonance its easier to stab someone than it is to do open heart surgery.

Dark Archive

@waithstrike I think that blasting can be the most efficient form of magic. When everything is dead there is not as much pressure to consider what the subsequent combat actions should be because combat is over.

A simple 15d6+45 fireball will kill quite a few things in one hit, save or no, for quite a big chunk of the game. And it will not care about your resistance 5 or 10 all that much. This fireball is off the top of my head but I am positive I can not only make one (if proof were needed) but make one at sufficiently low level as to validate my statement.

Dead enemies don't take actions and there for blasting is highly efficient if done well. Though, I admit that it requires only a few fairly specific options to perform. But there is still some variety within the blaster builds that deal 1hko damage.


Dark Immortal wrote:

A simple 15d6+45 fireball will kill quite a few things in one hit, save or no, for quite a big chunk of the game. And it will not care about your resistance 5 or 10 all that much. This fireball is off the top of my head but I am positive I can not only make one (if proof were needed) but make one at sufficiently low level as to validate my statement.

Dead enemies don't take actions and there for blasting is highly efficient if done well. Though, I admit that it requires only a few fairly specific options to perform. But there is still some variety within the blaster builds that deal 1hko damage.

A 15d6+45 damage fireball is far from simple, it requires a particular type of build mixing admixture wizard, crossblooded sorcerer, caster level boosts, empower spell, intesnified spells and the goblin fire drum.

Evocation can be made effective but it requires a pretty laser like focus on boosting it to relevant levels. Even so your 10d6+45 is still only averaging 80 damage and a simple CR8 opponent has on avergae 100hp. If you go down the evocation route you are better off skipping the damage increase stuff and apply DC boosts, persistent and dazing spell. Leave HP damage to those who do it much more efficiently, clerics, druids and summons.

Sovereign Court

To the crowd who think it's generally poor action economy to heal damage: how do you feel about removing conditions?

Does removing Blinded or Paralyzed from a frontliner have higher priority, or is it about the same as healing damage? Would you sacrifice your own actions to remove these conditions?

I don't have much experience in this area, but I'm curious.


Curing Blinded or Paralyzed is good from the viewpoint of 'killing the enemy quickly is the important thing' since it allows your ally to keep on attacking. Healing can do the same thing, but usually in a less immediate manner. (Curing paralysis also prevents CDG sudden death.)


Dark Immortal wrote:

@waithstrike I think that blasting can be the most efficient form of magic. When everything is dead there is not as much pressure to consider what the subsequent combat actions should be because combat is over.

A simple 15d6+45 fireball will kill quite a few things in one hit, save or no, for quite a big chunk of the game. And it will not care about your resistance 5 or 10 all that much. This fireball is off the top of my head but I am positive I can not only make one (if proof were needed) but make one at sufficiently low level as to validate my statement.

Dead enemies don't take actions and there for blasting is highly efficient if done well. Though, I admit that it requires only a few fairly specific options to perform. But there is still some variety within the blaster builds that deal 1hko damage.

That is not really a lot of damage depending on what level you are at, and blasting is inefficient because of the resources needed to make it compete with not blasting. The daze metamagic feat does make it a lot better, but it is the feat, not the blasting that is doing the heavy lifting.


Ascalaphus wrote:

To the crowd who think it's generally poor action economy to heal damage: how do you feel about removing conditions?

Does removing Blinded or Paralyzed from a frontliner have higher priority, or is it about the same as healing damage? Would you sacrifice your own actions to remove these conditions?

I don't have much experience in this area, but I'm curious.

Removing conditions is not the same as healing HP. Those of use that dont believe in healing or blasting do believe in SoS or SoL spells because they do inflict conditions. So knowing the power of those conditions we like to have ways to remove them. That is why dispel magic is popular. It does not fix everything, but it fixes a lot.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
MrSin wrote:

Assimar life oracle is an exception rather than the rule though. Requires a particular class, choice within the class that excludes all the others(mystery is a pretty big choice), a choice within that choice that hijacks another classes main class feature, a particular race, and to spend all of your favored class bonuses on one particular revelation in that mystery. Then it can be boosted by 2 specific magic items.

Meanwhile, the cleric stares at it with tears in his eyes, 'but why?" he says in an adorable high pitched whine.

** spoiler omitted **

Counterexample:

Your example doesn't include the chance of saving for half (or no) damage against the fireball. If you assume that half of the PCs save for half, then your average damage is reduced by 1/4 (from 65 to 48), which is very close to what that oracle is putting out with one standard action. Add in extra healing with move or swift actions, which the sorcerer can't match (unless he happens to have a lesser metamagic rod of quicken spell, which is unlikely at level 10)

Your crossblooded sorcerer isn't going to be throwing out metamagic-ed fireballs at level 10. He has access to level 4 spells. That means burning and dazing are out (burning is a possibility with the right trait). Flaring is doable, but the full-round cast time for a metamagic-ed sorcerer spell is really painful.

The oracle can afford to put out multiple channels a round (using quick channel) and expend all of his limited use abilities (such as combat healer) if he's fighting an equal level caster. An equal level caster in pathfinder typically means you're fighting a boss. If I can negate a boss's actions single-handedly, then my party's action economy means that they can deal with the (probably) low-level mooks quickly and get to the boss within a couple rounds.


spoiler tl;dr: life oracle is super awesome at healing (in case you didn't already know)
MrSin wrote:


Btw, I must not be everyone. Can I meet this guy? I don't think I've met everyone! I know I've never met nobody, and I may have met somebody, but never everybody!

My bad for generalizing with an absolute statement. My point is that if someone wants to make a healing build, there is an option that blows the others out of the water and scales well into higher levels without relying on the Heal spell.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Quote:
An equal level caster in pathfinder typically means you're fighting a boss.

No, bosses are usually a couple levels higher than you.


Castarr4 wrote:
Your example doesn't include the chance of saving for half (or no) damage against the fireball.

The thing is you can only heal damage taken and overhealing does nothing, so including averages that drop it by a quarter aren't the best way to handle it. You can't just add up the total damage vs. total healing of the group after a fire ball lands on them. Lots of variables too, like if its a party of fighter/cleric/wizard/magus or Rogue/Alchemist/Ranger/gunslinger. Or if your dropping it on 1 guy or six, or what metamagic, or if either guy has a crazy awesome build for offence, defense, or healing! So I just put out the numbers and averages of damage/healing per person with that particular build.

Castarr4 wrote:
spoiler tl;dr: life oracle is super awesome at healing (in case you didn't already know)

Won't argue against that! I may or may not plan on playing one... After a bard or marksman mind you. Gotta' have your priorities in life! And mine includes a lute apparently. A heavy metal lute...


Castarr4 wrote:
Your crossblooded sorcerer isn't going to be throwing out metamagic-ed fireballs at level 10. He has access to level 4 spells. That means burning and dazing are out (burning is a possibility with the right trait). Flaring is doable, but the full-round cast time for a metamagic-ed sorcerer spell is really painful.

A level 10 crossblooded sorcerer has level 5 spell slots but no level 5 spells known. They can use those slots for metamagic versions of lower level spells.

Magical Lineage and Wayang Spell Hunter both serve to reduce metamagic costs and also rods exist. It is entirely possible to be throwing dazing fireballs from level 8 if you really want to.

Personally if I want to go down the dazing route then I will skip crossblooded and go full arcane. The familiar for +4 initiative together with an extra +2 DC at level 11 with the Robe of Arcane Heritage are better than doing a bit of extra damage. They also get to remove the cast time delay when you really need to do it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Quote:
An equal level caster in pathfinder typically means you're fighting a boss.
No, bosses are usually a couple levels higher than you.

Point taken.

Edit: Also, NPCs get no traits, last I checked. And NPC loot (unless you raise their CR by 1)

Sovereign Court

wraithstrike wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

To the crowd who think it's generally poor action economy to heal damage: how do you feel about removing conditions?

Does removing Blinded or Paralyzed from a frontliner have higher priority, or is it about the same as healing damage? Would you sacrifice your own actions to remove these conditions?

I don't have much experience in this area, but I'm curious.

Removing conditions is not the same as healing HP. Those of use that dont believe in healing or blasting do believe in SoS or SoL spells because they do inflict conditions. So knowing the power of those conditions we like to have ways to remove them. That is why dispel magic is popular. It does not fix everything, but it fixes a lot.

Can you really rely on Dispel Magic? It seems that I miss that caster level check all the time.


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Ascalaphus wrote:
Can you really rely on Dispel Magic? It seems that I miss that caster level check all the time.

It is a sort of catch all in case you don't happen to have just the right thing. Personally I like to have scrolls of the common removal effects, remove fear, sickness, paralysis, delay poison, suppress charms and compulsions, potion of remove blindness. None of them have much effect based on caster level so minimum CL has very little impact.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

To the crowd who think it's generally poor action economy to heal damage: how do you feel about removing conditions?

Different kettle of fish.

1) Status effects take effect immediately, hit point loss does not affect you until you hit zero, so hit points are less time-sensitive.
2) Status removal spells remove the effect completely; curing hit points typically will only cure a fraction of the damage done.
3) The opponents can continue to remove hit points more or less at will, while they typically have to burn resources to inflict status effects. This means that a remove blindness will typically be effective for the entire fight as the enemy cleric didn't prepare more than a single blindness spell.

Even so, it depends on the condition. I'd not bother removing disease in combat, but I'd probably be concerned about blindness. Even deafness might not be an issue for a frontliner who's not casting spells.


Ascalaphus wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

To the crowd who think it's generally poor action economy to heal damage: how do you feel about removing conditions?

Does removing Blinded or Paralyzed from a frontliner have higher priority, or is it about the same as healing damage? Would you sacrifice your own actions to remove these conditions?

I don't have much experience in this area, but I'm curious.

Removing conditions is not the same as healing HP. Those of use that dont believe in healing or blasting do believe in SoS or SoL spells because they do inflict conditions. So knowing the power of those conditions we like to have ways to remove them. That is why dispel magic is popular. It does not fix everything, but it fixes a lot.
Can you really rely on Dispel Magic? It seems that I miss that caster level check all the time.

It is not an autopass, but it can solve a lot of problems when you don't have the specific counter ready.

As an example if a party member is blind and you dont have remove blindness/deafness then you can dispel it. Summon monsters in the way-->dispel them.

edit: There are ways to boost your caster level though magic items, and feats.


I remove conditions that take other PCs out of the fight for more than one round. Blindness is usually permanent, but more importantly makes the character with it useless for the rest of the fight. High priority to remove it. Fear effects that cause the PC to flee or cower are high priority because most are for more than one round. Stuns and dazes? If its for more than one round or if the player is in danger of being killed due to not being able to act to save themselves (dead is usually out of the combat, barring a breath of life). Any lockdown lasting for more than one round is pretty much a no brainer to give up your actions to fix.

When its a 1 round for 1 round, that is a little trickier. It comes down to if the guy you are clearing is going to have a more relevant action than you could, or if they are are in immediate serious danger. A stunned wizard in full attack range of anything is looking at a pine box in his near future. A dominated or confused barbarian (even for one round such as lesser confusion or a seugathi's controlled confusion) is a potential for serious party problems.


Just out of curiosity how are you removing daze? Outside of mercies I am struggling to find a way to do it.


andreww wrote:
Just out of curiosity how are you removing daze? Outside of mercies I am struggling to find a way to do it.

It can be removed with the heal spell.


Sigh, I was hoping for something a little lower level.


andreww wrote:
Sigh, I was hoping for something a little lower level.

Yeah, sometimes you just have to blow a heal to get rid of simple stuff like daze. On the bright side unless you are topping off all the time, its likely you at least did some healing. Personally I like heal most of all for the catch all condition clearing more than the HP healing.

If you have a dazed barbarian in full attack range of the enemy, its better use heal on him than let that full attack not happen. Also as you level up there are dazes that last longer than a round, so a heal spell is completely worth it.


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andreww wrote:
Just out of curiosity how are you removing daze? Outside of mercies I am struggling to find a way to do it.

Restoration

Associated Domain: Healing.

Replacement Power: The following granted power replaces the rebuke death power of the Healing domain.

Restorative Touch (Su): You can touch a creature, letting the healing power of your deity flow through you to relieve the creature of a minor condition. Your touch can remove the dazed, fatigued, shaken, sickened, or staggered condition. You choose which condition is removed. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier

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