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Scarab Sages

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow
The answer to "Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?" makes me perplexed. Precisely, this statment: "If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements."

Let me give you some theoretical scenarios and you tell me if this is overpowered.

For simplification let's say that we are talking about a race with the ability to cast Alter Self, a clearly arcane spell caster level 2. Angel Blooded Aasimars and Oni-Spawn Thieflings can cast it at level 1.

To meet the requirements of Mystic Theurge, all one would need, other than the skill rank requirements which one can meet at level 3, would be 3 levels of cleric, druid, or shaman and one level of any arcane caster class. So at level 5 I can start taking levels of Mystic Theurge rather than level 7. This is not overpowered in theory, or nobody brought this up before?

The other example is an Arcane Trickster with the same ability to cast Alter self as before, but this time instead of 3 levels of cleric, druid, or shaman we have 3 levels of Ninja or Rogue. The skill requirements are met at level 4 and we proceed with Arcane Trickster at level 5. Is this not overpowered as well?

If this is OK in your eyes and would like to hear actual complains from people, I would gladly tell people to complain to you when they are unhappy with my character. What say you?

Thank you.

P.S. I would rather have this issue addressed and this ruling reversed, but if not, then it is perfectly reasonable to suggest this to others.


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I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of the early entry to mystic Theurge/Eldritch Knight by this point. I've seen lots of people making them for PFS and thus far the sky has yet to fall. Honestly its a pretty underwhelming for the most part. Even early entry only takes Mystic Theurge from "terribly bad idea" to "Ok in some cases". All in all nothing special and certainly nothing overpowering.

Scarab Sages

I play a theurge that got semi early access (at level 3/1) and its nice with a lot of spells but I always seem like I'm one level from that perfect spell for the encounter.

Not too terribly OP, just nicely well rounded.


Maybe the arcane trickster could give a little boost with an early entry, but still you lose some spellcaster level. Even though you can end the arcane trickster fairly early, and maybe you take some course after, I'd say that there's no all of this power up, so no need to rip off your clothes. ..


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It's possible to qualify for Eldritch Knight as early as the 2nd level with a Tiefling Diviner using the scryer subschool. The Tiefling race gives you proficiency with all martial weapons (outsider traits), and the scryer subschool gives you clairvoyance as a SLA. Of course, that's utilizing two sneaky early qualification approaches rather than just one. The more interesting question is whether this is actually a balance issue at all?

I'll start with the easy one: Arcane Trickster is quite underpowered even with early qualification. Its class features are on par with those offered by a standard wizard specialization or sorcerer bloodline options, so it's not justified in having any prerequisites whatsoever, in my opinion. Its sole gimmick (ranged touch sneak attacks) is cool but situational, and not nearly powerful enough to carry a 1/2 BAB class that sacrificed three levels of caster progression to qualify.

Next up is Eldritch Knight. This class is kept in check by the fact that part of its price is actually built into its progression tables. No matter what, you're giving up at least one level of spell progression, and two if you can't use a racial trait to give you weapon proficiency. Eldritch Knight is also pretty sparse on class features, so you're giving up stuff on that front, too. All things considered, the real limiting factors here aren't actually in the prerequisites. Sure, gaining an effective +2 BAB through early qualifications is nice, but it's not the massive buff it might appear to be on paper. Frankly, characters like EK are far more affected by point buy due to his multiple attribute dependency. He's strong at high point buy, and weak at low point buy, and always has been.

Finally, there is the Mystic Theurge. This class has exceedingly powerful abilities (double spell progression!) gated by some of the most draconian prerequisites this side of whirlwind attack. If any class was going to cause problems under this ruling, it was Mystic Theurge... but it hasn't happened. Look around and you'll see plenty of advice threads regarding building Theurges using this SLA ruling, but none of GM's complaining of the resulting characters. It would seem that even the mildest of prerequisites, coupled with the fact that this prestige class is otherwise quite barren of class features, is sufficient to keep it under control.

So I'd argue it seems that the SLA ruling hasn't caused any significant balance issues. Rather, my complaint with it is that the the list of options for early qualifications is unnecessarily exclusive. Why should these early qualifications only be available to specific archetypes or races and not others? I'd rather just drop the prerequisites across the board rather than having silly early qualifications shennanigans.


People have brought these up before, it is just that I don't believe there is a consensus they are overpowered. As the FAQ says "prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters)." While this isn't universally true (Magambyan Arcanist, Hellknight Signifier, etc), so far the early access hasn't brought us any crazy options.

Arcane Trickster is a very tough class to play. Sneak Attack and Spells with generally fall behind +3 CL, and far behind a Crossblooded Sorcerer dip. You get some fun abilities on the side, but without favored class, 1/2 BaB, and only 4 skill points, it isn't a powerup on straight caster. If anything, even with early entry you are substantially weaker. I haven't seen many people making use of this, nor any crazy builds.

Eldritch Knights, though not mentioned, are also generally not recommended. Martial 1/Caster 6 is a tough character to play, and especially unattractive when one considers the option of Magus. I'd really only recommend it for a longer campaign, and you still won't be an overpowering character. Getting in earlier does not alter overall power that much, but it does make the ramp up. I've seen a ton of these popping up, and all so far have been "cool" but by no means "overpowered."

Mystic Theurge is the only one I'm iffy about. Versatility is a big chunk of caster power. However, spells also exponentially increase in power with level, which might balance it out. I'd like to hear from people on this one.

On the FAQ itself, I don't think it is a good one. It encourages and rewards dumpster diving for very specific options that don't particularly relate to the classes except in weird game math, and I can't imagine anyone picking up the book and arriving at this conclusion themself. It is also something designers themselves are likely to be unaware of (see the Inner Sea Gods thread) and as such it is possible we may see a crazy overpowered option spring from it in the future. As of right now, though, it isn't the end of the world either way, and leaving it open has created tons of interesting, balanced gishy options that I'm really enjoying.


Mystic Theurge can be entered at character level 4 in various ways. The Oracle wood revelation bend the grain counts as a level 2 divine SLA as does the Trickery domain copycat power and I think there is an Inquisition ability as well. You do have to be an aasimar. It is decent but far from game breaking.

Scarab Sages

Dasrak wrote:
It's possible to qualify for Eldritch Knight as early as the 2nd level with a Tiefling Diviner using the scryer subschool. The Tiefling race gives you proficiency with all martial weapons (outsider traits), and the scryer subschool gives you clairvoyance as a SLA.

I searched d20 for a Thiefling Diviner and found nothing. I have never heard of a race trait/ability/feat that gives you all the martial weapons. Please elaborate.

Arcane Trickster: If somebody asked me if I wanted to be at level 9, I would say level 1 wizard, level 1 Rogue, level 1 Sleepless Detective, level 6 Arcane Trickster. (If not possible then at level 10 I would be same but level 3 Ninja instead of 1 Rogue and 1 Sleepless Detective). After casting Greater Invisibility I would have 5d6 Sneak Attack + 12d6 Scorching Ray [Spell Focus (evocation) Spell Specialization (Scorching Ray) Mage Tatto (evocation) and Bloodmage Initiate (evocation)] 17d6. Just about every skill would be a class skill as well. Overpowered? Maybe not. Crossblooded Draconic/Orc Sorcerer is only one level extra and gives 2 points of extra damage per die rolled. But the +3 to most every skill is cool as well as the extra skill points.

Mystic Theurge: I think this one is really great for a cleric. One level behind on spell casting, no advancement in domains or channel energy, and less hit points, but you get so much more than that.
An example of OP in my opinion would be if you get the Crossblooded Draconic/Orc Sorcerer and you choose fire, with the fire domain and the Theologian achetype. I would call that too much.

Eldritch Knight: I would need to see this Thiefling you mentioned, but a Aasimar sorcerer/sohei for example, with daylight as a spell-like ability (if that qualifies), going EK at level 3 and being full BAB, 2/3 extra feats eventually and being extra cool at level 12, I think that is Pretty good. One level of spells less but the BAB with touch attacks means no miss chance, extra feats and so on.

But OK, I will not rip my clothes off. I wouldn't want to have them ripped either. I just think that any of these would be a hard sell to the people I play with, but I will ask them. Even if I know what they are going to say.

Scarab Sages

andreww wrote:
Mystic Theurge can be entered at character level 4 in various ways. The Oracle wood revelation bend the grain counts as a level 2 divine SLA as does the Trickery domain copycat power and I think there is an Inquisition ability as well. You do have to be an aasimar. It is decent but far from game breaking.

Isn't Mirror Image an arcane spell? And it doesn't say that it is either of those are spell like abilities. IDK, just asking...


As I recall the rule on the nature of the SLA changed so where it comes from a class feature it is of the same source as the class. So Cleric SLA's are all divine etc.


Bling wrote:
andreww wrote:
Mystic Theurge can be entered at character level 4 in various ways. The Oracle wood revelation bend the grain counts as a level 2 divine SLA as does the Trickery domain copycat power and I think there is an Inquisition ability as well. You do have to be an aasimar. It is decent but far from game breaking.
Isn't Mirror Image an arcane spell?

Any SLA you get as a caster class ability is divine or arcane as the class. So a hypothetical oracle that got a fireball SLA from a revelation would still be divine (and third level).


Quote:
I have never heard of a race trait/ability/feat that gives you all the martial weapons

An aasimar or tiefling is an outsider.

An outsider has the following traits:

Quote:


Darkvision 60 feet.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

Simple as that.


Bling wrote:


Let me give you some theoretical scenarios and you tell me if this is overpowered. [snip]

If this is OK in your eyes and would like to hear actual complains from people, I would gladly tell people to complain to you when they are unhappy with my character. What say you?

Why would you consider any of the scenarios you outlined to be overpowered?

I'll focus on the Arcane Theurge for a moment. Even with the early entry tricks, you're trading all of the non-spell abilities (channelling, wild shape, domain powers, bloodline abilities, bonus feats) and at least one caster level for the ability to cast a reduced number and caster level of spells (but no other powers) from a different spell list. But again, you're not getting any of the non-spell abilities.

And because of the action economy, you're still restricted to one spell per round.

The only effects I can see are increased flexibility (you're more likely to have an appropriate spell) and a reduced chance of running out of spells during a long adventuring day. Both of those issues could easily be solved by a normal caster with a decent UMD score and a pile of scrolls.

So I'm not seeing any pieces of falling sky around me. I don't think there's anything particularly overpowering about this.


Dasrak wrote:
Quote:
I have never heard of a race trait/ability/feat that gives you all the martial weapons

An aasimar or tiefling is an outsider.

An outsider has the following traits:

Quote:


Darkvision 60 feet.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Simple as that.

It's been ruled that the Outside races(Aasimar, Undine, etc) do not get the proficiencies others do.


Azten wrote:


It's been ruled that the Outside races(Aasimar, Undine, etc) do not get the proficiencies others do.

Can you link to that ruling? I was not aware of any such FAQ or errata.

Scarab Sages

andreww wrote:
As I recall the rule on the nature of the SLA changed so where it comes from a class feature it is of the same source as the class. So Cleric SLA's are all divine etc.

Can you think of anything that does the same thing for the arcane side? I would like to avoid being a Thiefling/Aasimar if I can and be mostly Cleric.


Bling wrote:
andreww wrote:
As I recall the rule on the nature of the SLA changed so where it comes from a class feature it is of the same source as the class. So Cleric SLA's are all divine etc.
Can you think of anything that does the same thing for the arcane side? I would like to avoid being a Thiefling/Aasimar if I can and be mostly Cleric.

No classes, but half-elves can take the Drow Magic trait, and Drow, Duergar, and Svirfneblin have appropriate Spell-Like Abilities.

Scarab Sages

Orfamay Quest wrote:
No classes, but half-elves can take the Drow Magic trait, and Drow, Duergar, and Svirfneblin have appropriate Spell-Like Abilities.

Dang, Drow Magic is not legal for PFS, which is what I play. Is there any feats or traits that I can use?


Dasrak wrote:
Azten wrote:


It's been ruled that the Outside races(Aasimar, Undine, etc) do not get the proficiencies others do.
Can you link to that ruling? I was not aware of any such FAQ or errata.

Here is James Jacob's response. It is listed as "no response required" as far as needing a FAQ.

Shadow Lodge

Dasrak wrote:


Finally, there is the Mystic Theurge. This class has exceedingly powerful abilities (double spell progression!) gated by some of the most draconian prerequisites this side of whirlwind attack. If any class was going to cause problems under this ruling, it was Mystic...

ok in homes games, omg wtfbbqsauce broken. 4 fireballs that deal 120 points each in acid damage at 13th level, then cast 35 more at 2 per round.

in PFS still very powerful because of the ability to spam fireballs, or what ever evocation spell they choose to use, all day and cast healing/buff spells. not the most broken class for PFS by far, but still pretty dang annoying for a gm and other players at the table.

oracle (flame)/sorcerer(cross blooded) aasimar can PrC at 4th level. and man oh man can they blast, while still being a powerful group buffer.

**edit**
oh they limited spell synthesis to once per day, ok so its not actualy as good as i thought. once per day you can quicken 2 fireballs and follow it up with a full round metamagic fireball.


I was originally in the OMG what the %$@^ is Paizo thinking crowd. Then when I examined what it actually affected I was actually quite pleased. It took a bunch of blah classes and made them more playable. The only one that may be OP is bloatmage, but I don't know that its really that OP. Anyway, I like the ruling!

And, you can actually start Bloatmage and EK at level 2 so they have the earliest entry.

Oh, and I loved Arcane Tricksters (in practice not theory) before the ruling, now this has me contemplating a Divine Trickster! I started a Sohei Monk/Empyreal Sorcerer in Society as well since this ruling.

I really would hate for them to overturn this ruling as I think its actually pretty fair and balanced, and I have done quite a bit of number crunching on this issue. There are way more broken things I'd like to see addressed first.


+1

I think it is nice as a GM in case I want to add a PrC to a monster.


Bling wrote:
andreww wrote:
As I recall the rule on the nature of the SLA changed so where it comes from a class feature it is of the same source as the class. So Cleric SLA's are all divine etc.
Can you think of anything that does the same thing for the arcane side? I would like to avoid being a Thiefling/Aasimar if I can and be mostly Cleric.

This is for a theurge I take it? And for PFS? Unfortunately...your pretty much in the SOL camp. The only thing PFS legal other than Aasmir/Tiefling is:

Qinggong Monk at 4th level - Scorching Ray.

Which is probably not what your looking for!

I have petitioned the Devs to add more SLA's to the Core Races so we don't all have to play outsiders anymore, so far I have met with deaf ears.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Dasrak wrote:
Azten wrote:


It's been ruled that the Outside races(Aasimar, Undine, etc) do not get the proficiencies others do.
Can you link to that ruling? I was not aware of any such FAQ or errata.

Only native outsiders are void of their proficiencies.


eakratz wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Azten wrote:


It's been ruled that the Outside races(Aasimar, Undine, etc) do not get the proficiencies others do.
Can you link to that ruling? I was not aware of any such FAQ or errata.
Here is James Jacob's response. It is listed as "no response required" as far as needing a FAQ.

I'm very uncomfortable with rulings like these. Just a lone forum post from 2010 with no entry in the FAQ? How on earth is anyone who doesn't crawl the forums supposed to know about these? To be clear, I wholeheartedly agree with the ruling (it's what I'd go with at my table if it came up) but I take issue with important rulings such as these being presented in such a fragmented and obscure fashion. How many other important rulings from individual forum posts do I not know about?

In any case, I disagree with the PDT that no FAQ is required. This may be an obscure issue, but the rulebook as printed is very clear: all outsiders have martial weapon proficiency unless explicitly stated otherwise, and none of the outsider races state otherwise. The RAW and RAI are in opposition, and that sort of thing should be in a FAQ.

Quote:
Only native outsiders are void of their proficiencies.

There is no such exception for the native subtype. The only source for this rule is James Jacobs' post, which would apply to any creature, not just native outsiders, that lacks racial hit dice.

Quote:
I have petitioned the Devs to add more SLA's to the Core Races so we don't all have to play outsiders anymore, so far I have met with deaf ears.

I'd imagine the issue is that they don't want to retroactively change material that is already published. If they're going down that path, they may as well just rewrite the prestige class prerequisites and be done with the technicalities altogether.

The best way to widen accessibility without changing old material would be to add some feats that offer SLA's. This would still mean there would be a feat tax, but that's hardly the end of the world.

Scarab Sages

Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
This is for a theurge I take it? And for PFS? Unfortunately...your pretty much in the SOL camp.

What does SOL stand for?

Silver Crusade

Sorry, out of Luck. Or, more obscene versions.

Scarab Sages

DesolateHarmony wrote:
Sorry, out of Luck. Or, more obscene versions.

Thanks.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies, Representative - D20 Hobbies

Dasrak wrote:
I'm very uncomfortable with rulings like these.

The rulings are based in the rules. I had remembered the info incorrectly. I had thought that only the 0 HD outsiders were Native. There are outsiders with HD and native subtype.

The key point in the rules, is that outsider type (like B1 page 309) have hit dice. If you don't have hit dice, then you don't get the benefits of the hit dice. You don't get the proficiencies.

To believe you do, you must say that the line saying "d10 Hit Dice" and the next 3 other lines are irrelevant.

Plus you need to say that the rules like Tiefling on page 264 omit parts, such as the proficiencies. That would be a pretty important thing to omit.

Scarab Sages

andreww wrote:
Mystic Theurge can be entered at character level 4 in various ways. The Oracle wood revelation bend the grain counts as a level 2 divine SLA as does the Trickery domain copycat power and I think there is an Inquisition ability as well. You do have to be an aasimar. It is decent but far from game breaking.

Thanks, I think I will be mostly Cleric by one level over Wizard.

Grand Lodge

Well, the absolute fastest prestige class is Bloatmage at level 2.
(Human in home game, any race in PFS)

All you need is two feats (Spell Focus and Bloatmage Initiate) and a 3rd level SLA.

Human Scryer gets two feats at first level, and clairvoyance as an SLA.

In PFS, all wizards get spell focus in place of scribe scroll as a bonus feat at first level, meaning you can play any race you want and get bloat mage at 2nd. (Or take assimar and whatever school you want.)

This is nice because it means you can actually *get* their capstone ability at 11th level, meaning you can actually use it in PFS. (not that it is all that great in PFS, but hey, take what you can get...)


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Dasrak wrote:


An outsider has the following traits:

***

Simple as that.

A creature with a PC race write-up has the traits written in the write-up. That's basic Lex Specialis. Simple as that.


James Risner wrote:
The key point in the rules, is that outsider type (like B1 page 309) have hit dice. If you don't have hit dice, then you don't get the benefits of the hit dice. You don't get the proficiencies.

There is no such rule. The only source for such a rule is James Jacobs' post from 2010.

Quote:
To believe you do, you must say that the line saying "d10 Hit Dice" and the next 3 other lines are irrelevant.

These are different sections. The hit dice and the following three points are listed in one set of bullets. On the following line that bulleted list terminates and a new entry appears:

PRD wrote:

Traits: An outsider possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry)

This is explicitly separate from its racial hit dice entry. Furthermore, it establishes that a creature entry must explicitly override any of these traits. Mere omission is not sufficient.

Also note that under your "omission" theory, humans would not need to eat, sleep, and breath since these traits are listed under humanoid creature type traits and are omitted from the specific rules for humans. This is clearly illogical, and we must conclude that 0 HD races still have all the traits from their creature type. Note that the humanoid creature type explicitly states that creatures with class levels use those proficiencies instead. The outsider entry lacks this clause.

Popsocket wrote:
A creature with a PC race write-up has the traits written in the write-up. That's basic Lex Specialis. Simple as that.

See above. The creature type trait rules state that they always apply unless explicitly overridden. If you rule otherwise, then humans don't need to eat/sleep/breath.

You're in a catch-22. If 0-HD races do not inherit creature type traits, then humans do not need to eat, sleep, or breath (this is clearly incorrect). If they do, then aasimar and tieflings have martial weapon proficiency. What's necessary is a narrowly tailored ruling that only applies to weapon proficiencies (which is what James Jacobs provides in his 2010 post), but in the rulebooks themselves such a rule does not exist.


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Popsocket wrote:
A creature with a PC race write-up has the traits written in the write-up. That's basic Lex Specialis. Simple as that.

See above. The creature type trait rules state that they always apply unless explicitly overridden. If you rule otherwise, then humans don't need to eat/sleep/breath.

You're in a catch-22. If 0-HD races do not inherit creature type traits, then humans do not need to eat, sleep, or breath (this is clearly incorrect). If they do, then aasimar and tieflings have martial weapon proficiency. What's necessary is a narrowly...

The Advanced Race Guide speaks directly to this under the Race Builder section: Type Quality (pg 215, 1st paragraph of the section), and is paraphrased in the PRD under Race Examples. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder.html.

Apologies for doing a more direct link, but it's late and I don't remember all the tags.

Essentially, 0-HD races get their HD, BaB, saving throw progression, skill points, class skills, and weapon and armor proficiencies based on the class levels.


Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Seravin wrote:

Advanced Race Guide speaks directly to this under the Race Builder section: Type Quality (pg 215, 1st paragraph of the section), and is paraphrased in the PRD under Race Examples. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder.html.

Apologies for doing a more direct link, but it's late and I don't remember all the tags.

Essentially, 0-HD races get their HD, BaB, saving throw progression, skill points, class skills, and weapon and armor proficiencies based on the class levels

Well, that was a particularly bad bit of tag usage.

The Bestiary entry for the Aasimar also note that "Aasimars are defined by class levels - they do not possess racial Hit Dice." Admittedly there's room on either side of the argument for that entry, but combined with the expanded text in the Race Builder the intent seems pretty clear.


Seravin wrote:
Apologies for doing a more direct link, but it's late and I don't remember all the tags.

Here's the tagged link, for those that wish to follow. It appears that the ARG does, in fact, contain this rule. So, at least it was published somewhere.

The Exchange

FLite wrote:

Well, the absolute fastest prestige class is Bloatmage at level 2.

(Human in home game, any race in PFS)

All you need is two feats (Spell Focus and Bloatmage Initiate) and a 3rd level SLA.

Human Scryer gets two feats at first level, and clairvoyance as an SLA.

In PFS, all wizards get spell focus in place of scribe scroll as a bonus feat at first level, meaning you can play any race you want and get bloat mage at 2nd. (Or take assimar and whatever school you want.)

This is nice because it means you can actually *get* their capstone ability at 11th level, meaning you can actually use it in PFS. (not that it is all that great in PFS, but hey, take what you can get...)

Funny you should mention this...


Dasrak wrote:

I'm very uncomfortable with rulings like these. Just a lone forum post from 2010 with no entry in the FAQ? How on earth is anyone who doesn't crawl the forums supposed to know about these? To be clear, I wholeheartedly agree with the ruling (it's what I'd go with at my table if it came up) but I take issue with important rulings such as these being presented in such a fragmented and obscure fashion. How many other important rulings from individual forum posts do I not know about?

In any case, I disagree with the PDT that no FAQ is required. This may be an obscure issue, but the rulebook as printed is very clear: all outsiders have martial weapon proficiency unless explicitly stated otherwise, and none of the outsider races state otherwise. The RAW and RAI are in opposition, and that sort of thing should be in a FAQ.

No FAQ is required means anyone with a bit of common sense is smart enough to figure it out. In my experience most any GM could answer this without ever visiting the forums. The trouble with answering every convoluted argument they see is that it encourages the sort of people who do that silliness and discourage common sense. It would leave them with less time to work when they could have just left it to the GM.


Bling wrote:
andreww wrote:
Mystic Theurge can be entered at character level 4 in various ways. The Oracle wood revelation bend the grain counts as a level 2 divine SLA as does the Trickery domain copycat power and I think there is an Inquisition ability as well. You do have to be an aasimar. It is decent but far from game breaking.
Thanks, I think I will be mostly Cleric by one level over Wizard.

If you are going with Cleric as your primary then you might want to consider Empyreal Sorcerer as your secondary. That gives you one single focused casting stat and lets you load up on offensive arcane spells. Otherwise you are likely to be largely limited to buffs, creation and summoning magic on the wizard side. That isn't terrible but the big benefit of getting arcane spells as a cleric is to access effective area effect magic from the arcane side. Splitting yourself between Wis and Int will make that difficult.


Dasrak wrote:
eakratz wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Azten wrote:


It's been ruled that the Outside races(Aasimar, Undine, etc) do not get the proficiencies others do.
Can you link to that ruling? I was not aware of any such FAQ or errata.
Here is James Jacob's response. It is listed as "no response required" as far as needing a FAQ.
I'm very uncomfortable with rulings like these. Just a lone forum post from 2010 with no entry in the FAQ? How on earth is anyone who doesn't crawl the forums supposed to know about these? To be clear, I wholeheartedly agree with the ruling (it's what I'd go with at my table if it came up) but I take issue with important rulings such as these being presented in such a fragmented and obscure fashion. How many other important rulings from individual forum posts do I not know about?

Not to mention that James Jacobs has repeatedly said he's not a rules guy, and his answers are just how he would run things in his home games. And the recent dev-team statement that anything other than official FAQs and Erratas should not be taken as an official answer to a rules question.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Winfred wrote:


No FAQ is required means anyone with a bit of common sense is smart enough to figure it out. In my experience most any GM could answer this without ever visiting the forums. The trouble with answering every convoluted argument they see is that it encourages the sort of people who do that silliness and discourage common sense. It would leave them with less time to work when they could have just left it to the GM.

So you're calling everyone who ever worked on 3.X, where the same language existed prior to the ARG clarifying it, people without common sense? Wow. Stay classy there Winny.


Dasrak wrote:


This is explicitly separate from its racial hit dice entry. Furthermore, it establishes that a creature entry must explicitly override any of these traits. Mere omission is not sufficient.

I call Assumption of Perfection on that. Giving a full PC race write-up and not including proficiency is an explicit override, by the standards of writing that can reasonably be expected from Paizo.

Quote:


Also note that under your "omission" theory, humans would not need to eat, sleep, and breath since these traits are listed under humanoid creature type traits and are omitted from the specific rules for humans. This is clearly illogical, and we must conclude that 0 HD races still have all the traits from their creature type.

Your argument would be valid if "do humans need to breathe" and "are the grandchildren of angels instinctively proficient with swords" were in any way equivalent questions. They are not equivalent questions, and while the exclusion of one answer may or may not be significant, failing to note that humans need to eat and drink signifies absolutely nothing. You are that guy who is arguing that the "Dead" condition is undefined, and nothing prohibits taking actions while dead.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Winfred wrote:


No FAQ is required means anyone with a bit of common sense is smart enough to figure it out. In my experience most any GM could answer this without ever visiting the forums. The trouble with answering every convoluted argument they see is that it encourages the sort of people who do that silliness and discourage common sense. It would leave them with less time to work when they could have just left it to the GM.

So you're calling everyone who ever worked on 3.X, where the same language existed prior to the ARG clarifying it, people without common sense? Wow. Stay classy there Winny.

What makes you think everyone who worked on 3.5 thought that? I know I have seen loads of silly stuff on forums and such but in general yes many people have ideas about the rules that seemed like they came from thin air. Do you really think many GMs out there are confused as to "Do tieflings get a free weapon proficiency?" Without the sentence from the ARG? I realize that the intent behind a rule can be hazy at times but on the other hand sometimes it really does seem like if you just thought about something for a bit it is pretty clear.

(on the other hand not to shot myself in the foot but honestly I think they deserve it in 3.5. LA hurts.)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Given that the ruling in 3.x was they did get the weapon proficiencies, I stand by my statement. Re Dragon: 352 and other sources.

I'm just amused. This is, by definition, a frequently asked question.


Well tbh I would rule the same way in 3.5. Sorry I misunderstood and thought you meant the people working on 3.5 rather than people playing it. But I guess the core of what I am trying to say is that anytime there is a gray area that seems like it could go either way one should assume the least broken option is true. That is the common sense I mentioned and in fact I suspect it is how most all GMs run their game. That I suppose is why it doesn't fall into FAQ territory for me. Most GMs could look at this question and figure out the answer with less than a full round of thought.

Matt wrote:
I'm just amused. This is, by definition, a frequently asked question.

Well if you are honestly confused I think it is fair enough that you would want an FAQ. But as I have already given my thoughts on the subject and you obviously disagree why do you think it was given "no response required" as far as FAQ goes?


It's pretty okay.

None of the new options are gamebreaking methinks, though I've never played with them. I'd say it's more fun to actually see these options playable rather than those Prestige Classes no one takes because they're terrible.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Honestly, I don't know why they've not put it in the FAQ. What I find funny is that the question is frequently asked. Thus the definition of FAQ.


Winfred wrote:
Do you really think many GMs out there are confused as to "Do tieflings get a free weapon proficiency?" Without the sentence from the ARG? I realize that the intent behind a rule can be hazy at times but on the other hand sometimes it really does seem like if you just thought about something for a bit it is pretty clear.

I wasn't confused. I was, in fact, 100% sure that tieflings/aasimar got weapon proficiencies before Paizo made their clarification, since the 3.5 clarification (published in the 3.5 FAQ) was that they did get them.

Since the actual rules text was the same as in 3.5, and since Paizo didn't change the part about 0-HD humanoids (which, considering it's called out specifically for that creature type, reads like an exception) to instead encompass all the creature types, it would be sensible to assume the rules were still the same. It would have been very easy to change this, too; simply move that section of the Humanoid rules to the top of the Creature Type listings, and change all instances of "humanoids" to "creatures".

Besides, even before I read the 3.5 FAQ and discovered the ruling there, that was how we played the planetouched races in our 3.5 campaigns. As you say, the rules seemed pretty clear :)


Are wrote:

I wasn't confused. I was, in fact, 100% sure that tieflings/aasimar got weapon proficiencies before Paizo made their clarification, since the 3.5 clarification (published in the 3.5 FAQ) was that they did get them.

Well hell maybe I am wrong! Do you think that by interpreting the rules in this way you encourage tieflings and such to the exclusion of other races? I suppose that is one of the reasons I would assume that most DMs would go the other way on it. That and the 3.5 FAQ is not part of the PFRPG rules IIRC.


Winfred wrote:
Do you think that by interpreting the rules in this way you encourage tieflings and such to the exclusion of other races?

No, based on evidence from 3.5 I wouldn't think this encourages those races to the exclusion of others. We didn't use LA for the aasimar and tiefling, since they seemed about on par with the core races (only slightly stronger, if that, but not worth a whole point of LA), and despite that I think there were only 2 characters played with those races in the 5-6 campaigns I was a part of with that group (either as player or as DM).

I think Paizo's SLAs-qualifying-for-PrCs ruling will do more to encourage those races than granting martial weapon proficiencies for free.. Of course, both of those together could be too much :)

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