Monk Question -- Flurry of Blows


Advice


For story related reasons, my monk has become interested in learning to use a non-monk weapon. He has already been given proficiency as a reward, so that part of the problem is out of the way. My question is whether or not there is a way to be able to flurry with it through means other than the Crusader's Flurry feat? Taking the feat (and the required cleric dip) is not out of the question, but was just curious as to if there were any other options.

For informational purposes, he is currently level 7 and has the Quinggong and Drunken Master archetypes. As always, thanks in advance for any help!

Dark Archive

None that I am aware of. I am curious as to which book Crusader's Flurry is from.


Chris Ballard wrote:
None that I am aware of. I am curious as to which book Crusader's Flurry is from.

It's from Ultimate Combat. As I said, not a huge deal if there isn't any other workaround but was just curious.

Liberty's Edge

The Sohei Archetype allows this with certain weapons. Might be a bit late for your character on that one, though, and I can't think of anything else.


Aye, a bit late for the Sohei archetype. The GM would probably let me retrain since she's cool like that, but frankly, the character concept fits better without it anyway.

At any rate, looks as though I will be taking at least one level of cleric. Who knows how many other cleric levels lie in wait. :)

Sczarni

Is this a super RAW game? If your GM is offering story rewards he/she may be open to just hand waving it; especially if the weapons mechanics/stats are comparable to an existing Monk weapon, even an exotic one.

What is the weapon by the way?


It's not a super strict RAW game, and its certainly plausible that she'd be willing to hand wave. That said, I was just curious if there was a means by which I could do it other than Crusader's Flurry and not have to rely on a hand wave. In all honesty, the dip into Cleric doesn't bother me, and it will fit with the story (which to me is more important much of the time than pure mechanics).

The weapon in question is a Naginata, and considering my character (using race point generation rules) has the ability to Enlarge Person himself at-wil, the idea of flurrying while enlarged with a reach weapon and a x4 crit modifier is pretty appealing.


Legally, I don't know of any way.

However, the monk has always been of eastern style, and the naginata was definitely a traditional weapon among the monks of japan.

Of course, this is also encapsulated by the sohei archetype.


I'm pretty sure theres a decent balancing reason why you can't flurry with a Naginata.

Scarab Sages

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Duboris wrote:
I'm pretty sure theres a decent balancing reason why you can't flurry with a Naginata.

Not really. Sohei and Crusader's Flurry can let it happen RAW. It's less damage than an Monk unarmed strike unless you crit, so the only real benefit is it's cheaper than an amulet of mighty fists and it has reach. There are already monk weapons that have reach.

Balance wise, there is nothing wrong with using flurry of blows with ANY weapon. Flurry locks you into the weakest combat style available as it is.

Sczarni

Gargs454 wrote:

Aye, a bit late for the Sohei archetype. The GM would probably let me retrain since she's cool like that, but frankly, the character concept fits better without it anyway.

At any rate, looks as though I will be taking at least one level of cleric. Who knows how many other cleric levels lie in wait. :)

Honestly, one level of Cleric is a good thing for you as it will give you more control. Since you're using weapons, get Conductive on wahtever you're using and take the Repose Domain. It'll let you Stagger a foe as a Touch Attack with your weapon during a Flurry. Only once per round, and only as many times per day as equal to your Wisdom mod +3 I think. Outside of the Crusader's FLurry, that's a nice perk! Otherwise, I'm not sure what domain(since they get two) would fit you best.


Yeah, one question about flurry. Say I have 2 Kamas and let's say they have flurry. I have Two weapon fighting. I've got a +9/+4 respectively without anything special on each. Level 8 monk, for all intents and purposes.

If I expend a ki point I can swing one alone with +11/+11/+11/+6/+6

What does this look like with two weapon fighting?

Scarab Sages

Duboris wrote:

Yeah, one question about flurry. Say I have 2 Kamas and let's say they have flurry. I have Two weapon fighting. I've got a +9/+4 respectively without anything special on each. Level 8 monk, for all intents and purposes.

If I expend a ki point I can swing one alone with +11/+11/+11/+6/+6

What does this look like with two weapon fighting?

You can't stack Flurry and Two Weapon Fighting. Flurry IS two Weapon fighting, you just don't have to use two weapons and you get full STR on all hits.

Silver Crusade

You Flurry AS IF two weapon fighting...
But isn't Flurrying now just like Honda's Hundred Hand Slap? If you can Flurry with just one hand, why can't you tack on Two Weapon Fighting?

Sczarni

Duboris wrote:

Yeah, one question about flurry. Say I have 2 Kamas and let's say they have flurry. I have Two weapon fighting. I've got a +9/+4 respectively without anything special on each. Level 8 monk, for all intents and purposes.

If I expend a ki point I can swing one alone with +11/+11/+11/+6/+6

What does this look like with two weapon fighting?

Full Edit: Your math confused me a little there.

Let's say you have no Str bonus or Weapon Enhancement. Your BAB is +6/+1 at level 8. With TWF you'd have +6/+6/+1/+1. If you're using a light weapon in your offhand(reduces TWF penalties to -2/-2 for main hand and offhand), it'd become +4/+4/-1/-1.

Let's take the above, and say you magically gained a Str Bonus of +4 and Weapon Enhancement of +2. You'd be at +10/+10/+5/+5 total attack value for a full attack.

With the same statistics for Flurry, you'd be at +12/+12/+7/+7.

The Ki Point use should be self-explanatory.


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
Gargs454 wrote:

Aye, a bit late for the Sohei archetype. The GM would probably let me retrain since she's cool like that, but frankly, the character concept fits better without it anyway.

At any rate, looks as though I will be taking at least one level of cleric. Who knows how many other cleric levels lie in wait. :)

Honestly, one level of Cleric is a good thing for you as it will give you more control. Since you're using weapons, get Conductive on wahtever you're using and take the Repose Domain. It'll let you Stagger a foe as a Touch Attack with your weapon during a Flurry. Only once per round, and only as many times per day as equal to your Wisdom mod +3 I think. Outside of the Crusader's FLurry, that's a nice perk! Otherwise, I'm not sure what domain(since they get two) would fit you best.

Well repose domain won't work since Crusader's Flurry needs to be with the Deity's favored weapon (the deity in question is not a PF official deity) but the idea itself is still sound. Certainly there are control options available, which would make sense since most of his clerical spells are going to be mediocre at best given his low cleric level. So, focusing on things without a save or without much being impacted by cleric level would certainly be the way to go.

Sczarni

Brad McDowell wrote:


You Flurry AS IF two weapon fighting...
But isn't Flurrying now just like Honda's Hundred Hand Slap? If you can Flurry with just one hand, why can't you tack on Two Weapon Fighting?

Flurry is a specialized version of TWF. Much like Wildshape is a specialized version of Beast Shape X for Druids. Wildshape alters a few things in how Beast Shape operates, much like Stunning Fist(monk version) alters the functionality of the normal Stunning Fist(feat version).

Flurry just changes how TWF operates.

You have full BAB, with the -2 for wielding a light weapon in your offhand, already included in that full BAB. Hence, why you start at -1/-1 for Flurry instead of +1/+1. Much like you would end up with TWF. If you had TWF with the same setup, you'd also start at -1/-1 for a full-attack. Then you add in your weapon/attribute modifiers.

Flurry gives you TWF for free, full BAB(for the sake of flurry), no worries of an "off-hand"(.5 str) attack, and there are no restrictions in who you can hit with what while using it nor restrictions on what size weapon you can use with it. It also changes what you cannot do with it, unlike TWF that leaves you with a lot of options. You cannot combine natural attacks with it, nor can you take TWF since it already is TWF. It only works with weapons with the "Monk" quality on them unless some other workaround is given. You can qualify for combat feats involving TWF, but not if it requires Fighter levels.

If you can take TWF with Flurry, that means You can take TWF with TWF. If that's the case, you'll be seeing every melee class with 14 attacks on a full-attack.

I hope that clears it up for you at least a little.

Sczarni

Gargs454 wrote:
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
Gargs454 wrote:

Aye, a bit late for the Sohei archetype. The GM would probably let me retrain since she's cool like that, but frankly, the character concept fits better without it anyway.

At any rate, looks as though I will be taking at least one level of cleric. Who knows how many other cleric levels lie in wait. :)

Honestly, one level of Cleric is a good thing for you as it will give you more control. Since you're using weapons, get Conductive on wahtever you're using and take the Repose Domain. It'll let you Stagger a foe as a Touch Attack with your weapon during a Flurry. Only once per round, and only as many times per day as equal to your Wisdom mod +3 I think. Outside of the Crusader's FLurry, that's a nice perk! Otherwise, I'm not sure what domain(since they get two) would fit you best.
Well repose domain won't work since Crusader's Flurry needs to be with the Deity's favored weapon (the deity in question is not a PF official deity) but the idea itself is still sound. Certainly there are control options available, which would make sense since most of his clerical spells are going to be mediocre at best given his low cleric level. So, focusing on things without a save or without much being impacted by cleric level would certainly be the way to go.

Oooh. You cannot choose Domains freely? They are tied to your Deity? If that's the case... I'd look through the domains to see what may go well with the Conductive weapon property. There may be a hidden gem in there!

Silver Crusade

Kaz's quote...
You have full BAB, with the -2 for wielding a light weapon in your offhand, already included in that full BAB.

Monks don't have an off-hand. And as the FAQ reads, monks only use 1 weapon to Flurry. So let's use unarmed strikes with the foot to Flurry, and then a kama to TWF. Optimized? No, there's a bunch of penalties. The monk's -2 to flurry and then another -2 because of TWF. But against the rules? I can't find it RAW that it's not.


Imbicatus wrote:
Duboris wrote:
I'm pretty sure theres a decent balancing reason why you can't flurry with a Naginata.

Not really. Sohei and Crusader's Flurry can let it happen RAW. It's less damage than an Monk unarmed strike unless you crit, so the only real benefit is it's cheaper than an amulet of mighty fists and it has reach. There are already monk weapons that have reach.

Balance wise, there is nothing wrong with using flurry of blows with ANY weapon. Flurry locks you into the weakest combat style available as it is.

Another bonus is that you get 3 dmg from power attack. You still only get 1xSTR bonus though.

Sczarni

Brad McDowell wrote:

Kaz's quote...

You have full BAB, with the -2 for wielding a light weapon in your offhand, already included in that full BAB.

Monks don't have an off-hand. And as the FAQ reads, monks only use 1 weapon to Flurry. So let's use unarmed strikes with the foot to Flurry, and then a kama to TWF. Optimized? No, there's a bunch of penalties. The monk's -2 to flurry and then another -2 because of TWF. But against the rules? I can't find it RAW that it's not.

That's what I'm saying. It's already factored in there, even though they have no off-hand. Otherwise, you'd start at a +1/+1 at level 1 for a full-attack. They're melding the two together. That's the point of what I wrote. During the melding, that's what it came out to - and that part about the no off-hand wasn't existent until they were done writing it. You have to keep in mind they're using TWF as a BASE for Flurry. Does that make more sense?

Only uses one weapon to flurry? Please link that FAQ. Monks can use ANY weapon to Flurry, and any combination thereof to Flurry so long as it has the Monk Property or is an Unarmed Strike. They cannot combine Natural Attacks with it, through, or substitute Natural Attacks for their normal attacks(unless feral combat training is involved).

TWF and Flurry are two different types of Full-Attack Actions. You cannot combine them in an a full-attack... and it would really be silly to do so even if you could. It's either one, or the other. There aren't a "bunch of penalties" with TWF. There's just one if you're sporting a Kama, and that's a -2 to all of your attacks - Just like with Flurry(pre-calculated). The only difference, that that your BAB would be lower with TWF, and with Flurry it would be rocking a Full BAB.

The Rules for TWF - There is even a chart.

Scarab Sages

LoneKnave wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Duboris wrote:
I'm pretty sure theres a decent balancing reason why you can't flurry with a Naginata.

Not really. Sohei and Crusader's Flurry can let it happen RAW. It's less damage than an Monk unarmed strike unless you crit, so the only real benefit is it's cheaper than an amulet of mighty fists and it has reach. There are already monk weapons that have reach.

Balance wise, there is nothing wrong with using flurry of blows with ANY weapon. Flurry locks you into the weakest combat style available as it is.

Another bonus is that you get 3 dmg from power attack. You still only get 1xSTR bonus though.

Yes, although with terrible accuracy. It really becomes flurry of misses when you power attack on a flurry.

Silver Crusade

Monk flurry with one weapon

Now, about that TWF...Nice chart...
But come back to the very first line of TWF...
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

Where is it you're seeing that these 2 can't combine? Because, I hope you do realize, you can TWF without the feat, right? The chart even says so.


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
Gargs454 wrote:
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
Gargs454 wrote:

Aye, a bit late for the Sohei archetype. The GM would probably let me retrain since she's cool like that, but frankly, the character concept fits better without it anyway.

At any rate, looks as though I will be taking at least one level of cleric. Who knows how many other cleric levels lie in wait. :)

Honestly, one level of Cleric is a good thing for you as it will give you more control. Since you're using weapons, get Conductive on wahtever you're using and take the Repose Domain. It'll let you Stagger a foe as a Touch Attack with your weapon during a Flurry. Only once per round, and only as many times per day as equal to your Wisdom mod +3 I think. Outside of the Crusader's FLurry, that's a nice perk! Otherwise, I'm not sure what domain(since they get two) would fit you best.
Well repose domain won't work since Crusader's Flurry needs to be with the Deity's favored weapon (the deity in question is not a PF official deity) but the idea itself is still sound. Certainly there are control options available, which would make sense since most of his clerical spells are going to be mediocre at best given his low cleric level. So, focusing on things without a save or without much being impacted by cleric level would certainly be the way to go.
Oooh. You cannot choose Domains freely? They are tied to your Deity? If that's the case... I'd look through the domains to see what may go well with the Conductive weapon property. There may be a hidden gem in there!

Well, technically a Cleric can freely choose domains as long as she is not dedicated to a particular deity. For purposes of being able to flurry with a non-monk weapon though, Crusader's Flurry requires that it be your deity's favored weapon, which then presumes a dedication to a particular deity. To be fair though, I think that it would likely fall within RAW for a GM to allow the monk/cleric to not be dedicated to a deity AND to go with Crusader's Flurry, but its certainly not explicit. That being said though, for my character's purposes, if he does decide to go down the clerical route in order to get Crusader's Flurry, he would definitely be dedicated to the deity in question -- this if purely from an RP aspect though, not a CharOp perspective.

@LoneKnave: Won't you get 1.5 x Str bonus from the Nanigata since its a two-handed weapon? Or am I missing something?

And yeah, Power Attack and Flurry is frequently not a good idea unless a) the opponent is fairly weak -- in which case you might not need PA anyway or b) you have plenty of bonuses to hit aside from the normal (i.e. flanking/bless/etc.)

As for total damage between the nanigata and unarmed strike, I haven't done the math (and doubt I will) but its likely closer than it appears. For starters, the nanigata is equal to or greater than unarmed until level 8 (which is essentially now for my character's purposes). But then you'll also have to factor in extra opportunity attacks from reach as well as the occasional extra damage from crits. Certainly though if you are talking about a 20 level progression, then unarmed will clearly outpace the nanigata.

Silver Crusade

Gargs, Flurry of Blows restricts the x1.5 for STR. Every attack gets x1.


Quote:

@LoneKnave: Won't you get 1.5 x Str bonus from the Nanigata since its a two-handed weapon? Or am I missing something?

And yeah, Power Attack and Flurry is frequently not a good idea unless a) the opponent is fairly weak -- in which case you might not need PA anyway or b) you have plenty of bonuses to hit aside from the normal (i.e. flanking/bless/etc.)

Nope, monks always get 1xSTR bonus when flurrying, regardless of the number of hands used (usually this is a boon as they don't get 0.5STR on off hands).

As for the Power attack with flurry... unless your chance to hit is like, 20% without that -2, making twice the number of attacks should make up for it, if my math is right.

Of course, you are a monk, and you don't have any other BAB boosts unless you are a sohei.


Brad McDowell wrote:
Gargs, Flurry of Blows restricts the x1.5 for STR. Every attack gets x1.

Ahh, thanks, missed that part.

Sczarni

Brad McDowell wrote:

Monk flurry with one weapon

Now, about that TWF...Nice chart...
But come back to the very first line of TWF...
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

Where is it you're seeing that these 2 can't combine? Because, I hope you do realize, you can TWF without the feat, right? The chart even says so.

You're reading that FAQ incorrectly. It's just stating that you don't HAVE to use two weapons to Flurry. You still can if you choose to. Notice they respond with "You CAN make all of your attacks with one monk weapon." They use "can" quite often in that FAQ, meaning it's an option to use it that way. Anyone can still use any weapon they are holding, that qualifies with flurry, in conjunction with flurry. If I have a Kama in one hand, Sai in another, I can use a Kama, Sai, then a Kick in that order if I want.(so long as I can make that many attacks) TWF I believe forces you to use an offhand weapon to make an extra attack, whereas Flurry does not.

Of course you can use TWF regardless of the TWF feat. What's your point? TWF Feat just reduces the main-hand and off-hand penalties. I was speaking of TWF as a whole, not just the feats. I never said you couldn't do a full-attack or make extra attacks with out the feat, did I?

These two cannot combine, because Flurry is it's own full attack action. In the first couple lines of Flurry of Blows, it states it as a Full Attack Action. Much like Vital Strike being an Attack Action(as opposed to Trip being just an Attack), cannot be used in conjunction with nearly any other Standard Action. Even if TWF isn't a Full Attack Action; Flurry of Blows still is. It prevents them from both being used, on top of the fact that they're both TWF.

You points stand invalid still. Please be more elaborate.

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