Why are they "throwing you off?" Honestly, I want to know. I strive for clear text in rules, and so I'm curious.I guess it is these two lines that are throwing me off
Because of this line:
"Other undead receive a Fortitude save, or suffer 2d6 hp damage."
"Make a fort save or suffer damage" is NOT "make a fort save or explode (success still means 2d6 damage)"
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That is the line throwing me off.
The line "Other undead receive a Fortitude save, or suffer 2d6 hp damage" seems to say on a failed fort they take 2D6 damage. The effects of the explosion were not mentioned yet so this would refer back to the initial 1D4 HD a caster level of undead you cast this on. This is also the first time a save is mentioned so it would be a save the 1D4 HD a level that you cast it on that were NOT under your control.
I will attempt to explain how I am reading it.
1. The spell is cast and it affects 1D4 HD of undead per level. The spell then differentiates between undead you control and undead you do not control.
2. If they are under my control they get no save. They explode. See the explosion effects.
3. If they are not under my control, they get a fort save. If they fail the fort save they get 2D6 damage. If they damage is enough to kill them, they explode. See the explosion effects.
4. So if I cast this on 4 undead, 2 I control 2 I do not, the two I control auto explode no save. The 2 I do not control get a fort save or suffer 2D6 damage. If they make the save nothing happens to them.
Edit: So as I read it, on a failed save, undead I do not control do not auto explode. They take 2D6 damage. If that is enough to kill them they explode.
You can't just read the lines individually, without context. You have to consider them together.
You compel corporeal undead to explode in a burst of vile, acidic pus, killing them instantly. The spell affects 1d4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level (maximum 20d4). Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first; among creatures with equal HD, those closest to the burst’s point of origin are affected first. Undead you command with the Command Undead feat receive no save. Other undead receive a Fortitude save, or suffer 2d6 hp damage. Those destroyed by damage still explode.
The spell makes undead explode.
It makes 1d4HD/level of undead creatures explode, starting with the undead creature with the lowest hit dice, and then progressing upward by increasing hit dice based on proximity to the burst's point of origin. If the undead creature is Commanded by the Caster, then it receives no saving throw; it simply explodes. If the undead creature is not Commanded by the Caster, it receives a Fortitude save to avoid exploding and instead suffer 2d6 damage. If the 2d6 damage suffered by failing the saving throw kills the undead creature (not Commanded by the Caster), then the undead creature explodes, like the Commanded undead creatures and any affected undead creatures which failed the Fortitude save.
(But that text is much larger and more clunky, in my opinion, than the final, quoted text.)
I can provide an example, if you would like.
-Ben.
4. So if I cast this on 4 undead, 2 I control 2 I do not, the two I control auto explode no save. The 2 I do not control get a fort save or suffer 2D6 damage. If they make the save nothing happens to them.
In this example, the 2 undead creatures your character Controls will explode. They receive no saving throw. Anything within 5 feet of them suffers 4d6 force/acid damage, and must make a Reflex save for half damage. Those damaged by this explosion then make poison saves.
The 2 undead creatures you do not Control make Fortitude saves. Let us say one fails and one succeeds. The one which failed its save explodes. The one which succeeded suffers 2d6 damage. If this damage kills the creature, it explodes.
If each of these creatures were 4 hit dice, and the spell only affected 15 hit dice, then the undead creature you did not control, which was furthest from the point of origin, would not be affected.
Does this help?
-Ben.
If the undead creature is not Commanded by the Caster, it receives a Fortitude save to avoid exploding and instead suffer 2d6 damage.
The description does not say that. It says "the undead makes a Fort save OR takes 2d6 damage."
Because of the use of the word "or" here it means that the FAILED save results in 2d6 of damage.
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The way you just worded it is how I though it was intended to work.
I read the line "Other undead receive a Fortitude save, or suffer 2d6 hp damage" to mean that they get the 2d6 on a failed save, not a successful one. I'm used to it saying something to the effect of "if the save is successful they take 2D6 damage instead."
I'm pretty clear on it now and am happy that it works like I thought. My necromancer kills undead instead of creating so this is perfect for them. With the command undead feat, they would take over some undead in a hoard and then cast this spell knowing they will explode and damage more. :-)
Compare to Tar Pool:
You convert a layer of the ground to hot tar. Creatures in the area when the tar appears take 1d6 points of fire damage per two caster levels (maximum of 10d6) and must succeed at a Reflex save or become entangled.
If the undead creature is not Commanded by the Caster, it receives a Fortitude save to avoid exploding and instead suffer 2d6 damage.The description does not say that. It says "the undead makes a Fort save OR takes 2d6 damage."
Because of the use of the word "or" here it means that the FAILED save results in 2d6 of damage.
It says, up front, that the spell makes them explode. When you try parsing the sentences individually, then it's obfuscated.
You compel corporeal undead to explode in a burst of vile, acidic pus, killing them instantly. The spell affects 1d4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level (maximum 20d4). Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first; among creatures with equal HD, those closest to the burst’s point of origin are affected first. Undead you command with the Command Undead feat receive no save. Other undead receive a Fortitude save, or suffer 2d6 hp damage. Those destroyed by damage still explode.
I think that's clear, because the three sentences before are saying the undead creatures explode and die instantly, that's what this spell does. Taking 2d6 damage is not exploding and dying instantly, it's the benefit of making the save. This effect is complex, and takes a couple sentences setting up the effect and its saving throw because it differentiates between Commanded undead and uncontrolled undead, and that means you can't just look at it one sentence at a time. However, I can see what you're suggesting by the tar pool.
You compel corporeal undead to explode in a burst of vile, acidic pus, killing them instantly. The spell affects 1d4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level (maximum 20d4). Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first; among creatures with equal HD, those closest to the burst’s point of origin are affected first. Undead you command with the Command Undead feat receive no save. Other undead receive a Fortitude save, and only suffer 2d6 hp damage if they succeed. Those destroyed by damage still explode.
could work, but I'm not sure it's necessary. I'll pass it to Amanda, though.
-Ben.
It says, up front, that the spell makes them explode. When you try parsing the sentences individually, then it's obfuscated.If the undead creature is not Commanded by the Caster, it receives a Fortitude save to avoid exploding and instead suffer 2d6 damage.The description does not say that. It says "the undead makes a Fort save OR takes 2d6 damage."
Because of the use of the word "or" here it means that the FAILED save results in 2d6 of damage.
Yes. Which is why it needs to be rephrased. Or it'll constantly be confusing to everyone that tries to use it. Just look at "catching yourself while falling" in the Create Pit thread. Apparently you can catch yourself using a slope's DC (of 0) while falling into the pit while simply being adjacent to the pit, because it's "within arm's reach."
Anyway, I'd word it thusly:
You compel corporeal undead to explode in a burst of vile, acidic pus, killing them instantly. The spell affects 1d4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level (maximum 20d4). Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first; among creatures with equal HD, those closest to the burst’s point of origin are affected first. Undead you command with the Command Undead feat do not receive a save. Other undead receive a Fortitude save, although success still inflicts 2d6 damage, if they are destroyed in this way, they still explode. [blah blah blah, explosion rules]
Mirroring other rules, from Tar Pool ("success still inflicts damage") to Disintegrate ("creatures reduced to 0 are still turned to dust").
PG 288 is missing the entire writup for the feat Rune Mastery. It is on the previous pages list of feats and did exist with a write up in Pirates of the Western Ocean.
It's on page 277, at the beginning of the section.
-Ben.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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When we used Net of Comets (p. 210 ) in our Midgard play tests at PaizoCon we discovered its way overpowered for fourth level. Either the area of effect needs to be reduced, the damage duration needs to be limited or the level needs to be raised to fifth or higher.
Kobold Minion #66
I just hope they update the pdf and rejoice in what I have.
I've done a read over on Damage Reduction, and there's no indication that force is an energy type, so it should probably be DR/-, but I would defer to the person who wrote it and I'll point it out to Amanda, who should probably be able to point that person here. I get what they're trying to do, but DR/- is probably better.
-Ben.
Doom of Blood, p. 158
Target line lists "one living creature with 5 or fewer HD."
However, the spell description indicates an area of effect rather than a single target, as it reads "For each round that creatures spend in the spell's area of effect, the bleed inceases by 1 hp (for both you and those around you). Creatures leaving the area of effect lock in the bleed damage at whatever rate was current when they left; returning to the area increases the bleed again by an additional 1 hp per round."
Contributor
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I'm happy to announce that an updated PDF is available on DriveThruRPG and should be available here at Paizo now or a little later today.
An updated version of the free errata sheet is available here.
These address many of the things brought up in this thread, although the question about doom of blood merits further investigation. Thanks for pointing it out, Jeff.
Thanks, all!
This is just a copy of my post from the deep magic product discussion thread, I just thought this might be a more appropriate thread to ask these questions.
Have you considered releasing a document updating the spell lists of the new classes in the ACG with the spells from Deep magic?
In the description of the Chaos school power fluke misdirection on p. 21 it says that deflecting a ray is a swift action. Surely this is supposed to be an immediate action?
In the description of the demon binder archetype ability Demonic aspect on p. 336 it says that the demon binder gains resist 4 against electricity, then goes on to say that he gains resist 5 against acid, cold and fire. Surely the demon binder is supposed to have a higher resistance against electricity than the other elements considering that demons all have electricity immunity?
These address many of the things brought up in this thread, although the question about doom of blood merits further investigation. Thanks for pointing it out, Jeff.
Quite welcome, though I wish I'd caught it earlier. I used the dooms in the <redacted> I did for the <redacted> and had to turn it in without using this one.
Is it possible to get the Deep Magic Errata and Clarification PDF? You can get it into your cart, but then the system says the cart is empty when you try to check out...
Deep Magic Errata and Clarification PDF
Also, since I got the pdf with the kickstarter, is there a way to get the updated pdf?
Thanks in advance!