thieves' tools how exactly do they adjust the DC

Rules Questions

Under Open locks:


The DC to open a lock depends on the lock's quality: simple (DC 20), average (DC 25), good (DC 30), or superior (DC 40).

If you do not have a set of thieves’ tools, these DCs increase by 10.

Under Thieves' tools:


This kit contains lockpicks and other tools you need to use the Disable Device skill. Without these tools, you must use improvised tools, and you take a –2 circumstance penalty on Disable Device checks.

Which is it - or is that supposed to be cumulative - and if so why not just include it in one place? It doesn't make sense to have a double penalty.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

That does seem weird at first glance. My best guess is that the -2 for improvised tools applies to ALL uses of Disable Device, while the +10 DC is only for opening locks. Seems, then, that when you're opening locks you'd get both the penalty and the DC increase.

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Disable Device is used for sabotage and other things in addition to opening locks.

Grand Lodge

Specific Rule overcomes a General Rule. I would say +10 is all you would add but have nothing more than first thoughts to support my argument.

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