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For those of you who care; What are your thoughts on the Brawler class, currently in playtest?
You can read over it and others in the Playtest Guide. Feel free to discuss any of them for that matter.
-My Opinion-
The Good:
It feels like what a standard monk should have started at before archetypes. This obviously has a lot more combat potential than the Monk, and greatly supports unarmed fighting and/or weapon fighting at the same time. It also combines the better skill points and health as well. Full BAB all around is pretty sexy, and it should be for both of those classes. They can wear enhanced/enchanted armor(yay brawling). It lowers the MAD of the Monk a LOT. It feels this build is more reliant on Str/Dex/Con due to the addition of armor. It's still very similar to the Fighter, and is easy to pick up on without a ridiculous system mastery. Martial Maneuvers is pretty handy and seemingly very powerful. 1 minute is a very long stretch in most combats, if not the entire combat. There is very good versatility in that alone, to say the least. One could become quite the switch hitter with much ease.
The Bad:
An Amulet of Mighty Fists is still a necessity for Unarmed Fighting. Okay control options, playing out similar to a Fighter's method of control(cmb, dazing assault, stunning assault etc.). Lack of proficiency with weapons. I did expect a Martial level. Losing the good Will save of the Monk. Awesome Blow is a bit of a waste that late in the game when most CMD's are incredibly high and most APs stop at 16 +/-1.
Side Note: I wonder if Snake Style/Sidewind/Fang is considered to be a Bonus Feat since it does technically enhance defenses and/or melee attacks. Other than AC and CMD bonuses to chosen combat maneuvers, there isn't much defensive options provided.
The Ugly:
A complete lack of flavor. It still feels as bland as a fighter does.
I always felt the Brawler was a nice compromise between the Fighter and the Monk, but with the changes made to Martial Maneuvers in the revision, it became that much cooler an option to me. There are some things that should definitely be addressed (more usages of Martial Maneuvers, for one), but I know at least a couple of them were noted as on the change "itinerary", so I'm very interested to see the final version of the class.
As for lacking flavor, true, but I personally find the classes like the fighter and brawler (the most "bland") give more versatility to character creation, as it leaves open more potential options. Classes like the Bard, Paladin, Skald, and Monk are a little too niche and focused, IMO, and don't lend themselves as easily to creating unique characters.
Having play tested the Brawler, I found them to be weak. I ran through Ruby Phoenix with one, and I would have done much better with a fighter. The Martial Maneuvers seem a lot better than they prove to be when the rubber meets the road (primarily because everything good has feats chains, so by the time you buy to where you want to be, it uses all the time for the day, and you're a one encounter wonder). Defensively they are weak. Since the flurry is just TWF, and that's really not all too hot a fighting style, again you have an issue. I twinked the build reasonably hard, and it still was nothing to write home about. A two handed or sword and board fighter would have worked better all through that. The only things in the class's favor are the extra skill points and good reflex save.
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Brawler is the combat maneuver class. If you just want to punch people, you're not using half your class features. The one thing that I think is silly is that they are proficient with shields as weapons, but not as armor. Unarmed combat is still not super exciting, but their real benefit is with armed combat. Brawler's flurry is like twf, but you only need one weapon. That saves you a lot of money.
You'll want to take power attack and combat reflexes. Having those you can choose on the fly to get the improved & greater feats for any combat maneuver you wish to perform.
You'll want to take power attack and combat reflexes. Having those you can choose on the fly to get the improved & greater feats for any combat maneuver you wish to perform.
I think you mean Combat Expertise, for Improved/Greater Trip, Improved/Greater Disarm, Improved/Greater Dirty Trick, Improved/Greater Reposition, and Improved/Greater Steal.
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You'll want to take power attack and combat reflexes. Having those you can choose on the fly to get the improved & greater feats for any combat maneuver you wish to perform.I think you mean Combat Expertise, for Improved/Greater Trip, Improved/Greater Disarm, Improved/Greater Dirty Trick, Improved/Greater Reposition, and Improved/Greater Steal.
Yeah that's what I meant.
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I find it to be boring. Mechanically, and flavor-wise.
It brings nothing new to the table, and accomplishes nothing you could not already with a Brawler (Fighter archetype) with a 2 level dip in Monk.
Martial Maneuvers is far too limited in uses per day to be worthwhile, and that's not likely to be fixed (at most, SKR was thinking about letting you add your Wis mod to the number of uses per day and adding an Extra feat).
All the good stuff (like Awesome Blow) comes far too late to matter, though this one IS getting fixed.
Other than that it's just a Fighter. Definitely the second biggest disappointment of the ACG Playtest (behind the Hunter, which they might as well rename "Druid That Sucks"). A Warpriest makes a better unarmed brawler character than it does, with a whole bunch of other extras too.
The one thing that I think is silly is that they are proficient with shields as weapons, but not as armor.
Careful, during the playtest a lot of posts got wiped because they mentioned that.
And heaven help you if you mention the weapon that must not be named (brass knuckles).
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I find it to be boring. Mechanically, and flavor-wise.
It brings nothing new to the table, and accomplishes nothing you could not already with a Brawler (Fighter archetype) with a 2 level dip in Monk.
My thoughts, exactly. Warpriest of Irori is a much better unarmed or close weapon fighter than the brawler class.
I find it to be boring. Mechanically, and flavor-wise.
It brings nothing new to the table, and accomplishes nothing you could not already with a Brawler (Fighter archetype) with a 2 level dip in Monk.
Martial Maneuvers is far too limited in uses per day to be worthwhile, and that's not likely to be fixed (at most, SKR was thinking about letting you add your Wis mod to the number of uses per day and adding an Extra feat).
All the good stuff (like Awesome Blow) comes far too late to matter, though this one IS getting fixed.
Other than that it's just a Fighter. Definitely the second biggest disappointment of the ACG Playtest (behind the Hunter, which they might as well rename "Druid That Sucks"). A Warpriest makes a better unarmed brawler character than it does, with a whole bunch of other extras too.
The one thing that I think is silly is that they are proficient with shields as weapons, but not as armor.Careful, during the playtest a lot of posts got wiped because they mentioned that.
And heaven help you if you mention the weapon that must not be named (brass knuckles).
Except that a 2 level dip in Monk requires a Lawful alignment unless you go martial artist which isn't all that great IMO.
You get full flurry
Unarmed damage progression
Unarmed DR bypass abilities
Good bonus feat progression
And combat feat flexibility with martial maneuvers
A lot of really great flexibility here with some neat possible combinations.
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The Ugly:
A complete lack of flavor. It still feels as bland as a fighter does.
This is a feature, not a bug. It means you can easily give your character whatever flavor you desire.
I find it to be boring. Mechanically, and flavor-wise.
It brings nothing new to the table, and accomplishes nothing you could not already with a Brawler (Fighter archetype) with a 2 level dip in Monk.
Martial Maneuvers is far too limited in uses per day to be worthwhile, and that's not likely to be fixed (at most, SKR was thinking about letting you add your Wis mod to the number of uses per day and adding an Extra feat).
All the good stuff (like Awesome Blow) comes far too late to matter, though this one IS getting fixed.
Other than that it's just a Fighter. Definitely the second biggest disappointment of the ACG Playtest (behind the Hunter, which they might as well rename "Druid That Sucks"). A Warpriest makes a better unarmed brawler character than it does, with a whole bunch of other extras too.
The one thing that I think is silly is that they are proficient with shields as weapons, but not as armor.Careful, during the playtest a lot of posts got wiped because they mentioned that.
And heaven help you if you mention the weapon that must not be named (brass knuckles).
Except that a 2 level dip in Monk requires a Lawful alignment unless you go martial artist which isn't all that great IMO.
You get full flurry
Unarmed damage progression
Unarmed DR bypass abilities
Good bonus feat progression
And combat feat flexibility with martial maneuversA lot of really great flexibility here with some neat possible combinations.
Monks don't lose abilities by changing alignment.
The rest of it you can get by either taking more Monk levels or more Fighter levels, depending on your preference.
It's just not a very inspired class.
I find it to be boring. Mechanically, and flavor-wise.
It brings nothing new to the table, and accomplishes nothing you could not already with a Brawler (Fighter archetype) with a 2 level dip in Monk.
Martial Maneuvers is far too limited in uses per day to be worthwhile, and that's not likely to be fixed (at most, SKR was thinking about letting you add your Wis mod to the number of uses per day and adding an Extra feat).
All the good stuff (like Awesome Blow) comes far too late to matter, though this one IS getting fixed.
Other than that it's just a Fighter. Definitely the second biggest disappointment of the ACG Playtest (behind the Hunter, which they might as well rename "Druid That Sucks"). A Warpriest makes a better unarmed brawler character than it does, with a whole bunch of other extras too.
The one thing that I think is silly is that they are proficient with shields as weapons, but not as armor.Careful, during the playtest a lot of posts got wiped because they mentioned that.
And heaven help you if you mention the weapon that must not be named (brass knuckles).
Except that a 2 level dip in Monk requires a Lawful alignment unless you go martial artist which isn't all that great IMO.
You get full flurry
Unarmed damage progression
Unarmed DR bypass abilities
Good bonus feat progression
And combat feat flexibility with martial maneuversA lot of really great flexibility here with some neat possible combinations.
Monks don't lose abilities by changing alignment.
The rest of it you can get by either taking more Monk levels or more Fighter levels, depending on your preference.
It's just not a very inspired class.
True you don't lose abilities but it's a no go in my gaming group to flip alignments. YMMV.
True you don't lose abilities but it's a no go in my gaming group to flip alignments. YMMV.
So, your group has no character development?
Was there another revision somewhere?
If you look in the brawler-specific playtest thread, near the end SKR lists some features/changes he was considering, all of them good.
So, your group has no character development?True you don't lose abilities but it's a no go in my gaming group to flip alignments. YMMV.
Character development yes. Flipping alignments to min/max no and our GM will call a spade a spade. In our group your alignment is at the core of who you character is and how they view the world. You should have a good reason to change alignment. Like I said your group may differ.
Back on topic. I still think the class is a fun option that has a lot to offer. If I could change anything it would be knockout.
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I have a Brawler character in PFS, started after the first revision, and I have had a lot of fun. I like the monk unarmed progression [though I wish it could apply to weapons], and the Martial Maneuvers ability. But I was a little disappointed by the mechanical strength of the class. It has bonuses to Maneuvers that the Fighter[especially Lore Warden] far exceeds, the Armour Class is to low for comfort, and Martial Maneuvers is too situational to use very often before it becomes a swift action. I've used it once in four levels of brawler, and [due to some poor planing], it wasn't very useful.
It also lacks interesting class features. It has a bunch of feats, and can pick up more mid-combat, which is nice, but the class features it has before level 13 are all just numbers increases. Not things like Rage Powers or Rogue Talents that provide interesting uses of actions beyond the standard stand-still-or-suck-syndrome.
Still, from what it looked like at the end of the playtest, things are looking up and I look forward to the final product.
Spending a Move action to suddenly be REALLY GOOD at whatever COmbat maneuver would be most helpful at that moment seems pretty decent to me (getting 3 feats can pretty much get you whatever you need for the combat maneuver).
I generally view people who say a class lacks flavor as saying "it doesn't match any of my favorite tropes and/or I just don't like it"
Alternatively, "this class adds nothing that I wasn't already getting from the Brawler archetype".
If I want to make a gritty boxer I'll just keep TWF'ing with Cesti. Crunch wise Martial Maneuvers is the only thing that really differentiates the class and it is severely limited by the ugliness that is the feat chain. There isn't much you can do with it other than qualifying for maneuver feats, which go out of style very quickly without a way to ramp up your CMB independent of BAB (Lore Warden/Warpriest Strength Blessing/Underfoot Adept/Strength Surge rage power).
Spending a Move action to suddenly be REALLY GOOD at whatever COmbat maneuver would be most helpful at that moment seems pretty decent to me (getting 3 feats can pretty much get you whatever you need for the combat maneuver).As a core ability of the class it's pretty weak. You are giving up ki pool and the rest of the monk abilities to get full BAB (which monk already has flurrying) and a few other abilities. I told my friend the best feature of brawler was the ability to use brawling armor which has nothing to do with the class.
Except that, with Full BAB, the Brawler is not depenent of Flurry like the monk. Additionally, he meets pre-reqs for feats much faster than the monk. Also, since the brawler counts as a fighter for the purposes of feat pre-reqs AND as a monk for pre-reqs, he can get some nice feats that monks normally can't.
On top of that, the loss of the alignment restriction actually helps out a lot (I hate being forced to play LN [I hate playing LG]).
As for the brawling armor, that is actually a huge bonus. That, combined with lots of bonus feats, MM, and full BAB allows the brawler to actually be pretty useful.
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I generally view people who say a class lacks flavor as saying "it doesn't match any of my favorite tropes and/or I just don't like it"Alternatively, "this class adds nothing that I wasn't already getting from the Brawler archetype".
If I want to make a gritty boxer I'll just keep TWF'ing with Cesti. Crunch wise Martial Maneuvers is the only thing that really differentiates the class and it is severely limited by the ugliness that is the feat chain. There isn't much you can do with it other than qualifying for maneuver feats, which go out of style very quickly without a way to ramp up your CMB independent of BAB (Lore Warden/Warpriest Strength Blessing/Underfoot Adept/Strength Surge rage power).
You do get scaling class bonuses to cmb. I agree it should be more, or add to all cmb checks instead of only chosen ones, but it is there.
There are situationally useful feats you can take besides maneuvers. Need to make ranged attacks? You suddenly have PB, precise, rapid shot etc. Surrounded by enemies? Grab cleave. There's so many uses for the martial maneuver ability. It'd be nice to get to use it more, but half your level uses per day doesn't take many levels before you can use it every fight (I suppose that may vary a lot by game, but I generally see 3-4 per day).
I've never had an issue with stacking excessive amounts of cmb to practically auto succeed against cr appropriate encounters. So maneuvers going out of style at higher levels has not been my experience.
Brawler's flurry plus full bab is exactly the same number of attacks and attack bonuses as monk flurry. So brawler flurry is better because full bab gives quicker access to feats, more out of power attack, single attacks have higher to hit, and its useable with more weapons.
Compared to fighter brawler you miss out on the weapon training, but you get twf for free, full strength to all attacks, and only need one weapon. Thats a big savings on feats and money.